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#31
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
On 8/9/2018 8:56 PM, Paul wrote:
mike wrote: On 8/9/2018 4:28 AM, Paul wrote: Bill wrote: mike wrote: How's the reliability? I'm still reading that they fail catastrophically without warning. I've heard that the reliability of SSDs far exceeds that of the mechanical hard drives (for, in fact, an obvious reason--no moving parts). The "trim" software for my Intel SSD even provides an indication of the drive's reliability (I'm not sure how well that works). I do regular backups too. You're the perfect customer for an SSD. You're mixing up reliability and wear life. I beg to differ. When the drive QUITS WORKING, that's end of life. Doesn't matter what caused it. We have to be careful to separate the component parts though. No, WE don't. WE...meaning consumers...care about RESULTS. The stuff you mention below is relevant to manufacturers, not consumers. When I buy a car designed to run on city streets and I drive that car on city streets, I care about one thing. Did I get to my destination? If my alternator quits, I see a red light. I may decide to reduce power consumption as much as I can. I will likely get to my destination. I will almost always get to someone who can help. It will get fixed and life goes on. If my car just decides, to STOP DEAD and require that I buy a new one, simply because the alternator exceeded some life prediction, sorry, you have to abandon your cargo too, I'm gonna be ****ed! I'm not bitching about wearout. I'm bitching about a vendor decision that might make the collateral damage MUCH worse than it needs to be. If it's simply a matter of data retention ability of some number of cells, the device should function 'till the last one dies, then give me easy ways to recover what isn't dead. In the case of a SSD, it's not at all clear who uses what strategy to what degree. "Trust me, we got good stuff...secret stuff...but it's good stuff." Some aspects of the electronics you use, can never be all that good. They could never last "forever". The best power converter they could make at work, was around 10 million hours MTBF. The guys who did that, were pretty product of their tiny gadget. MTBF as a number is easily misunderstood. It's been almost 30 years since I did a calculation, and I don't want to start now, but...as I recall, some relatively large number of devices are expected to fail within the MTBF. IIRC, it's like 30% or so? I figgered someone would challenge, so I looked it up. I got it backwards: Once the MTBF of a system is known, the probability that any one particular system will be operational at time equal to the MTBF can be estimated.[1] Under the assumption of a constant failure rate, any one particular system will survive to its calculated MTBF with a probability of 36.8% (i.e., it will fail before with a probability of 63.2%).[1] The same applies to the MTTF of a system working within this time period.[5] The bathtub shaped curve, assumes failures are random, and are a function of the "quality" or the "architecture" of the item. Having an actual wearout behavior, that is not a random phenomenon. That's predictable. Say I start writing my brand new M.2 motherboard SSD at 2.5GB/sec. And I do that all day long, day after day. These devices don't have enough wear life, to make it all the way to the end of the warranty period while doing that. If you do that to the drive, grind it into the ground, all the retailer has to do, is check the wear life and point out to the customer "you wore it out, it didn't fail as such". You would be denied warranty relief at retail level or at factory level. The warranty covers the "random stuff". The stuff that went into the MTBF calculation. I disagree. Warranty is a sales tool. Sometimes, it's mandated by law. Sometimes it IMPLIES that your product is better than the competition. Sometimes, the consequences of failure far outweigh the cost of the device. A tire that falls apart may cost the vendor $50 to remedy, but the lawsuits surrounding the 50-car pileup it caused can be astronomical. Vendors make tradeoffs between cost of doing it right vs cost of failure. It's all part of the balance sheet...the cost of doing business. A few vendors just fix what broke. Most find a way to blame it on you so they don't have to fix it. The length of the warranty is largely irrelevant. That's just the way the world works. Another problem with MTBF is the lack of useful data. Back in the day, we could get numbers for individual devices. But what about the vendor six levels deep in the manufacturing process who mis-calibrated the reflow oven by a few degrees and built in a failure mode for the 100 solder connections? There's too much statistical data from too many places. Don't get me started on the fact that devices don't exist in a vacuum. The probability of breaking your phone by sitting on it is far higher than the probability of a manufacturing defect caused crack. It's not a warranty issue, but it still don't work no more. Length of the warranty or MTBF number is irrelevant. The fast pace of new technology is also a big issue. By the time you could determine the failure rate by testing, the product has been replaced by a newer version several times. Accelerated life testing is good, but still seriously flawed for new technologies that we barely understand. So...MTBF calculation == good. Counting on that to save your ass is inadequate. Warranty length is mostly independent of that number. Everyone knows that like toilet paper, the number of write cycles is limited. If a customer burns them up, they won't be providing a shiny new drive for the customer to burn up a third, fourth, or fifth time. If it's determined a customer abused a product, then there's no warranty. Maybe your credit card provides more extensive product insurance, but the normal retail relationship mainly covers product defects. And wear is not a defect. It's an expected parameter a customer can control, by not doing too many writes per day... If I buy a gallon of paint at Home Depot, apply it to the walls, when the can is empty I can't run to the store and go "Defect! Defect! This can is empty. I blame the hole on top." The warranty might cover a failure of the chemical composition (maybe the drying accelerator agent is missing and the paint never dries for you). But simply using up the quantity of materials in the can, doesn't entitle you to a "infinite refill". I can't paint the Brooklyn Bridge with one can of paint. Paul Are we having fun yet? |
#32
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:52:38 -0700, mike wrote:
In the case of a SSD, it's not at all clear who uses what strategy to what degree. "Trust me, we got good stuff...secret stuff...but it's good stuff." That's just the way the world works. So...MTBF calculation == good. Warranty length is mostly independent of that number. Everyone knows. Are we having fun yet? -- It is: Because of the advent of 3D NAND technology the focus now has changed unto an industry-wide push on inferior TLC memory. Less inferior TLC would be, in the corrective sense, how that reads from a print on the outside packaging. And, quintessentially, that same aggressive NAND technology, behind TLC, as well drives the obsequious "new and improved" for a MTBF, Total Terabytes Written, over X years of the stipulated warranty. As they say. . .for the part of remaining secrets is to remain so until they aren't. Industry also holds the trump card: People emphatically will buy into inferior TLC because sum costs are cutting anything prior by a huge margin. Industry knows, psychologically, human nature that cheapshots of the world will unite. When and as they do, subsequently, the empiric collectivism will emerge to provide accompanying skews on usage and failure, onuses, and reviews, although perhaps no differently than might be the same formulations to subjectively employ, from decades of metadata characteristics already present, whereby an attempt is provided to make an informed decision on a mechanical HDD purchase. Psychologically, above industrial reference is psychoid stock investment talk. On my part, I could bet completely opposite -- that people of the world will say horse crap to this advertising -- and walk away from TLC SSDs. I could literally bet the shirt on back, everything, and be left sitting on a curb if I lost the bet. Or become the next richest, on another scenario, and buy the crown of the King of Siam;... People will buy into TLC, literally crawl over on another to be able to get at it first, like the good little marketing paradigms they in fact are. That's the plain plan for someone looking for a few hundred acres and a mansion to build. It's a matter of how fast you really want to go with Solid State NAND: It comes in two popular flavors, cabled to or breadboarded into the motherboard bus architecture for your convenience. And in relativistic terms of pure speed it leaves platters in a cloud of dust. |
#33
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
On 08/11/2018 04:52 AM, Flasherly wrote:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:52:38 -0700, mike wrote: Are we having fun yet? No. And I have to tell you no through Flasherly's post, because you, lowercase mike, were added to my kill filter last night, and your post has been deleted already. You're a cliche, with nothing useful or interesting to say. I haven't seen "chaos" for a while, but your tired "Are we having fun yet?" continually reappears. |
#34
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 07:52:25 -0400, Flasherly
wrote: ....aggressive NAND technology, behind TLC, as well drives the obsequious "new and improved" for a MTBF, Total Terabytes Written, over X year of the stipulated warranty. As they say. . .for the part of remaining secrets is to remain so until they aren't. .. . . Here's a good example of that progress "in the workings"... https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...ew,5446-5.html With Tom employing a contributing writer evaluation for the direction Samsung is positioning its EVO/EVO Pro marketing stratagem -- both to 2/3-bit TLC/MLC against V-NAND technology -- as is now presently opening to the broader market of brandname availability, then mentioned, beyond Crucial and Western Digital, a few months ago, and over how short a time will enact sweeping changes across marketing dynamics. Tomorrow, 8/12 NewEgg will begin sales promotions the EVO (non- MLC Pro) https://slickdeals.net/f/11926535-sa...e-drive-ssd-85 Amazon may in some elective follow in suit, ensuring their continued dominance by competitive "price-matching". Also note from the former article -- besides the original warranty specs, failure characteristics, and up to a "fool-proof to your doorstep", 10-year warranty (on Samsung premier enterprise products) -- how, notably with 3rd-party listings, user reviews surfacing, that may be confounded a case, if the warranty is industrially marginalized to multinational registration areas, (sic) if it were then bought in the US but the registration assigned to Europe at potentially entirely different and conditional qualifications Samsung may engage. Dominance which in fact may well already account for Amazon's baseline policies, regarding 3rd-party distribution tactics (for example rife on Ebay), which have already proven Amazon overall a superior proactive consumer presence in light of NewEgg's once dominate but now relative financial demise over the past decade. Closer, but again by no means conclusively stated for an early stage and entry point for several other brandname players only now beginning to provide depth to alterative iterations of the V-NAND platform;- as if it mattered: Samsung is the veritable Titan to understanding a SSD... . |
#35
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 13:34:06 -0700, dogs wrote:
"Are we having fun yet?" continually reappears .. . . Have fun then streaming with your WEBcasts, but be careful: Some I've encountered will attempt to hijack you for a server. Happy Trails, Dog. |
#36
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
On 8/11/2018 4:52 AM, Flasherly wrote:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:52:38 -0700, mike wrote: In the case of a SSD, it's not at all clear who uses what strategy to what degree. "Trust me, we got good stuff...secret stuff...but it's good stuff." That's just the way the world works. So...MTBF calculation == good. Warranty length is mostly independent of that number. Everyone knows. Are we having fun yet? -- It is: Because of the advent of 3D NAND technology the focus now has changed unto an industry-wide push on inferior TLC memory. Less inferior TLC would be, in the corrective sense, how that reads from a print on the outside packaging. And, quintessentially, that same aggressive NAND technology, behind TLC, as well drives the obsequious "new and improved" for a MTBF, Total Terabytes Written, over X years of the stipulated warranty. As they say. . .for the part of remaining secrets is to remain so until they aren't. Industry also holds the trump card: People emphatically will buy into inferior TLC because sum costs are cutting anything prior by a huge margin. Industry knows, psychologically, human nature that cheapshots of the world will unite. When and as they do, subsequently, the empiric collectivism will emerge to provide accompanying skews on usage and failure, onuses, and reviews, although perhaps no differently than might be the same formulations to subjectively employ, from decades of metadata characteristics already present, whereby an attempt is provided to make an informed decision on a mechanical HDD purchase. Psychologically, above industrial reference is psychoid stock investment talk. On my part, I could bet completely opposite -- that people of the world will say horse crap to this advertising -- and walk away from TLC SSDs. I could literally bet the shirt on back, everything, and be left sitting on a curb if I lost the bet. Or become the next richest, on another scenario, and buy the crown of the King of Siam;... People will buy into TLC, literally crawl over on another to be able to get at it first, like the good little marketing paradigms they in fact are. That's the plain plan for someone looking for a few hundred acres and a mansion to build. It's a matter of how fast you really want to go with Solid State NAND: It comes in two popular flavors, cabled to or breadboarded into the motherboard bus architecture for your convenience. And in relativistic terms of pure speed it leaves platters in a cloud of dust. Thanks for trying to input. There's likely some good stuff in there, but after a coherent sentence or two, you devolve into gibberish. I have no idea what you're trying to convey. It hurts my head to even try. I am amazed by the linearity and consistency of the devolution. A work of art, just not as helpful as it could be. I guess we are having fun. |
#37
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 20:37:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire
wrote: "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again" https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ch...ves,37563.html "It’s been years since I was willing to work on any PC that boots from a mechanical hard drive. Once you get used to the snappy response times and speedier gameload times of an SSD, going back to a hard drive feels like computing through a thick layer of molasses." Lynn If you were buying a 'large' drive now, what would you buy? SMR seems like something to be avoided, so if I want a drive in the 8-10-12+ range, what's available? Not just asking Lynn, anyone can chime in. |
#38
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 21:26:50 -0700, mike wrote:
Thanks for trying to input. There's likely some good stuff in there, but after a coherent sentence or two, you devolve into gibberish. I have no idea what you're trying to convey. It hurts my head to even try. I am amazed by the linearity and consistency of the devolution. A work of art, just not as helpful as it could be. I guess we are having fun. No problem. See the second post, perhaps the expert/Tom's SSD review may help with not being able to accept much, if not a whole of the SSD premise. I enjoy the stuff, owning and running now one of the first flatpanels made and among the oldest that's still running. It's still in the investment charts under the BRILLIANT symbol. Also as well likely to be gibberish, but that flatpanel and company, originally a $2000 32" backlit TTL, was a real wild ride on the tailend of an investment hellcat. It takes a small offshoot company to do that, focused and tightly contained by a product, one that's going to take off like there's no tomorrow. At least if going out on the deep end for killing the sky's-limit in technological investments. Forgive me the analogy if I find these SDD improvements exciting;- even with the smaller makers of SSD as offsets, ADATA, MICRON, & etc., I wouldn't expect near the "upstart" potential or degree of focus on an inevitability, flatpanels once pose over cathode ray tubes, by comparison to SSDs. Still -- that SDD speed is intrinsically nice. Any actual information imparted, think of it aside an inclination in ongoing preparations for another I'll probably purchase, as much due to a pure absurdity of TLC costs;- who knows, maybe I'll get lucky with newer restructured V-NAND in a MLC variant, instead of TLC. But, yes -- I agree and think mechanical drives are also fun, with the exception there will be no guessing allowed. It had better be done right, with mechanical drives costs serving now for a brunt of data backup, or the whole of the point to operating a Personal Computer is going to be a forgone conclusion, possibly better deferred to a handheld from such as Google cloud services. |
#39
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
Mark Perkins wrote:
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 20:37:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote: "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again" https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ch...ves,37563.html "It’s been years since I was willing to work on any PC that boots from a mechanical hard drive. Once you get used to the snappy response times and speedier gameload times of an SSD, going back to a hard drive feels like computing through a thick layer of molasses." Lynn If you were buying a 'large' drive now, what would you buy? SMR seems like something to be avoided, so if I want a drive in the 8-10-12+ range, what's available? Not just asking Lynn, anyone can chime in. PMR is still used to sell "premium" products, and a Google search is likely to find units using PMR. The marketing department knows the value of PMR, and "leaks" the info to bump sales. https://www.kitguru.net/components/h...rive-review/2/ On some lesser products of unknown parentage, you're forced to use deductive reasoning. If you see a 4TB drive in a 0.8" high enclosure, with what seems like two 2TB platters (datasheet doesn't list platters), then you can kinda guess it's SMR. SMR caching is now better than it was. https://forums.anandtech.com/threads...tters.2525313/ You even have to be careful now, with your HDTune usage. Do test runs in both Win7 and Win10 and compare, before publishing. As a recent Win10 release seems to be pulling the rug out from underneath HDTune 2.55. When attempting to identify PMR versus SMR, you can't let yourself be distracted by Windows 10 behaviors. Paul |
#40
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"Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again"
On Sun, 12 Aug 2018 03:36:08 -0400, Paul wrote:
Mark Perkins wrote: On Wed, 8 Aug 2018 20:37:01 -0500, Lynn McGuire wrote: "Why I Will Never Buy a Hard Drive Again" https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ch...ves,37563.html "It’s been years since I was willing to work on any PC that boots from a mechanical hard drive. Once you get used to the snappy response times and speedier gameload times of an SSD, going back to a hard drive feels like computing through a thick layer of molasses." Lynn If you were buying a 'large' drive now, what would you buy? SMR seems like something to be avoided, so if I want a drive in the 8-10-12+ range, what's available? Not just asking Lynn, anyone can chime in. PMR is still used to sell "premium" products, and a Google search is likely to find units using PMR. The marketing department knows the value of PMR, and "leaks" the info to bump sales. https://www.kitguru.net/components/h...rive-review/2/ On some lesser products of unknown parentage, you're forced to use deductive reasoning. If you see a 4TB drive in a 0.8" high enclosure, with what seems like two 2TB platters (datasheet doesn't list platters), then you can kinda guess it's SMR. SMR caching is now better than it was. https://forums.anandtech.com/threads...tters.2525313/ You even have to be careful now, with your HDTune usage. Do test runs in both Win7 and Win10 and compare, before publishing. As a recent Win10 release seems to be pulling the rug out from underneath HDTune 2.55. When attempting to identify PMR versus SMR, you can't let yourself be distracted by Windows 10 behaviors. Interesting, thanks. I guess I'm not the only one thinking it's best to avoid SMR for everyday general use, although if I'm reading correctly, SMR isn't as much of a dog now as it was when it was introduced. They've probably figured out and optimized the caching algorithm. |
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