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#71
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Nehmo Sergheyev wrote in message ... - Nehmo - DiscWizard is Seagate's copying program. - Rod Speed - No point in bothering with that now that you have ghost 2003 Start again using ghost 2003 - Nehmo - I was eager to get things going, and the Seagate product literature, being much better laid out than Maxtor's, was convincing. And you have now discovered that what appears to be a gold nugget can in fact be a dog turd |-) There's a message there, grasshopper. The user interface on Seagate's software, DiscWizard, looks more professional than that of MaxBlast too. Sure, but its clearly deficient anyway when the reality doesnt match the promise. Anyway, Seagate's Ultra ATA/100 Quick Installation guide (which mentions Windows XP, so it must have been written after the OS came out), True, but it clearly doesnt cover that fundamental with XP anyway. in the section 2A third bullet ".I want to make my new Seagate drive the boot drive (master). For this option see 'Before You Begin' to use Disc Wizard to install your drive and convert it to a boot drive. " 'Before You Begin' explains how to install DiscWizard. DiscWizard takes you through copying the old HD to the New. The implication is that you are to set the jumpers as indicated in 3, which is new=slave and old=master. The cable connecting section says slave goes into the secondary (middle gray) connector and the master goes into the primary (end, black) connector. This leads to "7E: Make your new drive the boot drive (optional). b) reconfigure the drives.. 2) change the jumpers to configure your new Seagate drive as the master and your old drive as the slave. 4)Your computer recognizes and boots from your new hard drive.. If necessary, see step 6C for BIOS/CMOS setup instructions." And those instructions clearly arent right for XP. Its crucial that XP cant see both the original and the clone during the first boot after the clone. Those instructions deal with if the BIOS doesn't detect the drives, but mine detects the drives all right, it just can load the OS from the new drive. This is all the info I have on my BIOS. I got it from running SiSoftware Sandra http://www.sisoftware.net/ : General Information Manufacturer : Phoenix Technologies LTD Version : Version 1.01 Date : 02/24/2000 Plug & Play Version : 1.00 SMBIOS/DMI Version : 2.30 (EE)PROM Size : 256kB (2Mbit) General Capabilities Can be Updated/Flashed : Yes Can be Shadowed : Yes Is Socketed : No Supports Plug & Play : Yes Supports ESCD : Yes Supports Enhanced Disk Drive : Yes NEC PC-98 Spec Compatible : No Power Management Features Supports APM : Yes Supports ACPI : Yes Supports Smart Battery : No Boot Features Supports Selective Booting : Yes Supports CD/DVD Boot : Yes Supports PCMCIA/CardBus Boot : No Supports LS-120 Boot : Yes Supports ZIP Boot : Yes Supports i2o Boot : No Supports FireWire/1394 Boot : No Supports BIOS Boot Block : Yes Supports Interactive Network Boot : No This time I'm trying Ghost 2003. I currently have Old=master & at primary position on cable New=slave & at secondary position on cable The position on the cable doesnt matter when master/slave jumpering is used, thats only important when cable select jumpering is used. So after I use Ghost, should I change the jumpers and the cable position to the opposite of the above? Doesnt really matter much, any config that will allow the new drive to be booted with the original drive not connected is fine. But yes, the new drive jumpered as master is best, with the old drive not connected at all for the first boot. But that wont work with WD drives, they have a unique jumper config when the drive is the only drive on the cable. Not relevant to you, I've just included that for anyone who uses this thread later. Should I try cable select on both of them this time? Shouldnt matter, should work fine either way. |
#72
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Success! - almost complete, I still haven't added the original drive
back on. But I'm booting off the new drive all by itself. - Nehmo - This time I'm trying Ghost 2003. I currently have Old=master & at primary position on cable New=slave & at secondary position on cable - Rod Speed - The position on the cable doesnt matter when master/slave jumpering is used, thats only important when cable select jumpering is used. - Nehmo - I used the jumper and cable-position settings described above to do the cloning. Ghost 2003 first objected to the Microsoft Wireless Optical Mouse, saying it couldn't determine what USB device was there; consequently, I would have to load something manually with the Advanced button. I wasn't worried about that, so I skipped doing anything about it. I still have the mouse CD and I have a corded mouse around here somewhere - if I really needed to use it. Next, Ghost 2003 said it couldn't defragment the virtual partition, and recommended that I first defragment via the OS utility. I deleted stuff and defraged. It wasn't enough, and Ghost 2003 displayed the same objection. I deleted yet more and drfraged again. Oddly, I found I couldn't delete Scansoft.OmniPage.Pro.14.iso . The delete refusal warning said the 451 MB iso file was in use. I think that has something to do with the way Daemon Tools 3.41 http://www.daemon-tools.cc/portal/portal.php "opened" (or mounted) the file. I think the process was equivalent to making a virtual disk. This "file" is listed in Daemon Tools as Device 0: [D:] path-to-file on C. It's shown in My Computer next to the other dirves as OPO165001-10281 (D . In any case, after the second defrag, Ghost 2003 began to run. It shut down Windows and ran from DOS. After it completed, it started Windows again - still from the old drive. Ghost 2003 then displayed a message and Y/N buttons saying I needed to restart to get the settings for the new hardware to establish. I pressed No because I wanted to shut down rather than restart. Restarting wouldn't give me enough time to disconnect the old drive and change the jumper settings. I pressed No, and then shut down normally. I then completely disconnected the old HD, left the new HD in its middle position on the ATA cable, and added the jumper to make the new HD master. I started, and Windows booted-up properly. I'm now using only the new drive. The same message about the hardware setting came up again, but I ignored. Now I'm going to send this, turn off, add the old drive, then start again. I'll see you then. -- ********************* * Nehmo Sergheyev * ********************* |
#73
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"Rod Speed" wrote: "Timothy Daniels" wrot .......do the cloning again, but shut down and disconnect the old hard drive before booting up with the new copy. As our beloved R. Speed said, that hiding of the old OS is *crucial*. Different symptoms tho. If you dont do that, it should boot fine, and only have a problem when the old drive is disconnected because the boot will use stuff off both drives. With Drive Image 2002, I don't get a bootable drive on the new disk if I don't disconnect the old disk before the 1st bootup. All the files and the file structure are there except for (I guess) the master boot record. It's great for archiving files, but not for making a bootable backup system or a replacement system. As for changing around the jumpers - that may not really be necessary unless you move the new HD to the end of the cable and remove the old HD. Thats comprehensively mangled too. You can EITHER use master/slave jumpers in which case the connector used is irrelevant, OR you can jumper the drives for cable select, use a cable select cable, which any new cable 80 conductor cable should be, and THEN the drive priority is determined by the connector its plugged into. If one disconnects just the power plug from the old drive, leaving the data plug connected to the disk drive to prevent signal reflections, I believe the new drive may be left jumpered as Slave and left at the intermediate connector and it will boot up despite not being Master and not being at the end connector. (I haven't yet tried this.) As I understand Master/ Slave, though, it is to implement data collision avoidance at the IDE channel level, and the rest of the system just sees 2 drives without any reference to Master/Slave attributes. Thus my comment about the jumpering not mattering for the solo first bootup of the new drive. With Windows XP, if you re-connect the old HD, the OS will detect the other OS at some point and exercise its multi-boot capability, giving you the option of choosing the old OS or the new OS to boot up each boot time. Thats utterly mangled in spades. It wont automatically setup an auto boot config if you say install XP on a drive, and then plug in say a bootable SE drive. You have to have the SE drive visible at install time for XP to automatically include the multiboot capabilty. My comments, and this thread, are about the 2 WinXP systems which result from the cloning of a WinXP system. In my experience in using Drive Image 2002 to clone a Windows XP Pro drive I've been unable to *avoid* generating a dual-boot option. What I get repeatedly is a boot.ini file which names both WinXP OSes as options for a dual boot. At some point, I don't know exactly when, the 2nd WinXP is seen by the first, and the dual boot option is implemented. I have to go back into the boot.ini files in both OSes and comment out the 2nd WinXP name (by surrounding it with square brackets) to avoid the dual boot option dialog each time I boot one or the other drive. There isnt any easy way to add multiboot capability later, after the install. It can be done, but not auto. And XP wont automatically setup multiboots between a number of XP installs on different drives either. As I said, I can't *avoid* it. That's pretty much auto. You can either use this feature There is no such 'feature' You coulda fooled *me*! or you can adjust the OS names list in the OS's boot.ini files (making 2 single-boot systems) and select the OS to boot by changing the boot sequence list in the BIOS. And you can tell XP to scan for other installed OSs and setup a multiboot for that, but not between multiple installs of XP. I didn't mention multiple installs. I've been referring to cloning of a WinXP OS from one drive to another. If you choose the multi-boot feature, it helps to change the OS names in the boot.ini files to something like "WinXP old" and WinXP new" to help you in selecting the right OS to boot up. And a multiboot config with multiple XP boots has to be setup manually by manually edititing boot.ini anyway, quite apart from the naming. Somehow the multi-boot feature gets enabled everytime I clone my WinXP system. It also helps to put a folder on the desktop having a name which indicates which OS is running or to select a desktop background to indicate that. And he doesnt even want multibooting between XP installs anyway. Neither do I, but somehow the cloning of WinXP gives it to me. *TimDaniels* |
#74
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Timothy Daniels wrote in message ... Rod Speed wrote Timothy Daniels wrote Nehmo Sergheyev wrote When I get to step 5, starting up again, I get, "Error loading OS". ...do the cloning again, but shut down and disconnect the old hard drive before booting up with the new copy. As our beloved R. Speed said, that hiding of the old OS is *crucial*. Different symptoms tho. If you dont do that, it should boot fine, and only have a problem when the old drive is disconnected because the boot will use stuff off both drives. With Drive Image 2002, I don't get a bootable drive on the new disk if I don't disconnect the old disk before the 1st bootup. All the files and the file structure are there except for (I guess) the master boot record. Presumably you cloned the partition, not the physical drive. Works fine for me with DI 2002 when cloning the physical drive. It's great for archiving files, but not for making a bootable backup system or a replacement system. Works fine for me, tho I normally do it when putting a bigger physical drive in place of a too small one, rather than for backup. I prefer to do image backups, mainly so I can keep more than just the latest so I can step back gracefully if a significant change turns out to have operational downsides. And I normally clone the physical drive in the drive upgrade situation because its a lot faster than restoring the image across the lan and I have to have the system open anyway. As for changing around the jumpers - that may not really be necessary unless you move the new HD to the end of the cable and remove the old HD. Thats comprehensively mangled too. You can EITHER use master/slave jumpers in which case the connector used is irrelevant, OR you can jumper the drives for cable select, use a cable select cable, which any new cable 80 conductor cable should be, and THEN the drive priority is determined by the connector its plugged into. If one disconnects just the power plug from the old drive, leaving the data plug connected to the disk drive to prevent signal reflections, Thats never a good idea. And you wont prevent reflections by having the drive connected but not powered anyway. I believe the new drive may be left jumpered as Slave and left at the intermediate connector and it will boot up despite not being Master That varys with the drive. Some drives are happy to be the only drive on a ribbon cable jumpered as slave, and some arent. That flouts the ATA standard anyway. and not being at the end connector. Doesnt matter if its the end connector with a temporary config, just the first boot after the clone. (I haven't yet tried this.) Thats obvious. As I understand Master/Slave, though, it is to implement data collision avoidance at the IDE channel level, Nope, nothing to do with collision avoidance whatever. There are no collisions with ATA. and the rest of the system just sees 2 drives without any reference to Master/Slave attributes. Utterly mangled all over again. Thus my comment about the jumpering not mattering for the solo first bootup of the new drive. You're wrong. If the new drive is a WD, it just plain wont work jumpered as slave and the only drive on the cable in most systems. Its not just a problem with WD drives either. With Windows XP, if you re-connect the old HD, the OS will detect the other OS at some point and exercise its multi-boot capability, giving you the option of choosing the old OS or the new OS to boot up each boot time. Thats utterly mangled in spades. It wont automatically setup an auto boot config if you say install XP on a drive, and then plug in say a bootable SE drive. You have to have the SE drive visible at install time for XP to automatically include the multiboot capabilty. My comments, and this thread, are about the 2 WinXP systems which result from the cloning of a WinXP system. You will never see XP automatically setup a multiboot config however you clone XP. If the original drive is visible to XP on the first boot, and you tell the bios to boot the clone, XP will get seriously confused and will boot from the clone and use quite a bit of the XP basics from the original drive. That will boot fine, BUT you'll find that if you disconnect or reformat the original drive later, the boot will fail, because XP configured the boot to use XP components from both physical drives and that stuff will be gone when the original drive is gone. In my experience in using Drive Image 2002 to clone a Windows XP Pro drive I've been unable to *avoid* generating a dual-boot option. God knows what you were doing, presumably you got that result when thrashing around after you didnt clone the physical drive but cloned the XP boot partition to the new drive instead, and you then manually ran one of the utes thats will repair a broken XP boot. You certainly wont get a multiboot config if you clone the physical drive, disconnect the original drive for the first XP boot after the cloning, have the clone boot fine, and comment that its seen new hardware, request a reboot because of that, allow that reboot, boot off the clone again, turn the system off, plug the original drive back in again and boot of the clone again. You still have the simple XP boot and the original drive is visible at the XP level and can be formatted etc and the clone will still boot fine after you have formatted the original drive. What I get repeatedly is a boot.ini file which names both WinXP OSes as options for a dual boot. Only if you use one of the utes that scans for other than the XP you've booted from. You'll never get that auto just by plugging the original drive back in again. At some point, I don't know exactly when, the 2nd WinXP is seen by the first, and the dual boot option is implemented. Likely because you told it to scan for other OSs and add them to the boot config. I have to go back into the boot.ini files in both OSes and comment out the 2nd WinXP name (by surrounding it with square brackets) to avoid the dual boot option dialog each time I boot one or the other drive. Only if you tell it to scan for other OSs. And for completeness, that will only find other OSs from the NT/2K/WP family, it wont find say a 98SE bootable drive thats been plugged back in later. There isnt any easy way to add multiboot capability later, after the install. It can be done, but not auto. And XP wont automatically setup multiboots between a number of XP installs on different drives either. As I said, I can't *avoid* it. Only because you clone wouldnt boot because you cloned the partition and not the physical drive and you had to repair the boot using one of the available ways to do that. That's pretty much auto. Nope, nothing auto about it. You can either use this feature There is no such 'feature' You coulda fooled *me*! You've fooled yourself. or you can adjust the OS names list in the OS's boot.ini files (making 2 single-boot systems) and select the OS to boot by changing the boot sequence list in the BIOS. And you can tell XP to scan for other installed OSs and setup a multiboot for that, but not between multiple installs of XP. I didn't mention multiple installs. I've been referring to cloning of a WinXP OS from one drive to another. Which produces multiple installs. If you choose the multi-boot feature, it helps to change the OS names in the boot.ini files to something like "WinXP old" and WinXP new" to help you in selecting the right OS to boot up. And a multiboot config with multiple XP boots has to be setup manually by manually edititing boot.ini anyway, quite apart from the naming. Somehow the multi-boot feature gets enabled everytime I clone my WinXP system. Because you have to repair the boot of the clone when it wont boot, because you cloned the partition, not the physical drive. It also helps to put a folder on the desktop having a name which indicates which OS is running or to select a desktop background to indicate that. And he doesnt even want multibooting between XP installs anyway. Neither do I, but somehow the cloning of WinXP gives it to me. Not the cloning didnt, that was the repair you had to do when the clone wouldnt boot. |
#75
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Nehmo Sergheyev wrote in message ... Success! - almost complete, Dangerous business bragging before its all home and hosed |-) I still haven't added the original drive back on. But I'm booting off the new drive all by itself. One small step for Nehmokind |-) - Nehmo - This time I'm trying Ghost 2003. I currently have Old=master & at primary position on cable New=slave & at secondary position on cable - Rod Speed - The position on the cable doesnt matter when master/slave jumpering is used, thats only important when cable select jumpering is used. - Nehmo - I used the jumper and cable-position settings described above to do the cloning. Ghost 2003 first objected to the Microsoft Wireless Optical Mouse, saying it couldn't determine what USB device was there; consequently, I would have to load something manually with the Advanced button. I wasn't worried about that, so I skipped doing anything about it. Yeah, thats fine, it rabbits on about my Logitech wireless optical too. I still have the mouse CD and I have a corded mouse around here somewhere - if I really needed to use it. Yeah, me too, in fact its in the mess of cables, just needs to be plugged in. You may not have noticed that you can actually have both plugged in and they'll both work fine simultaneously. Next, Ghost 2003 said it couldn't defragment the virtual partition, and recommended that I first defragment via the OS utility. Yeah, thats one real quirk with Ghost, it writes its DOS boot virtual partition rather crudely and needs contiguous space to write that into. I deleted stuff and defraged. It wasn't enough, and Ghost 2003 displayed the same objection. I deleted yet more and drfraged again. You could have written the rescue floppy and booted off that too or have booted off the distribution CD if you had had one of those. Or just booted off an image file written to CD by Ghost too. Oddly, I found I couldn't delete Scansoft.OmniPage.Pro.14.iso . The delete refusal warning said the 451 MB iso file was in use. I think that has something to do with the way Daemon Tools 3.41 http://www.daemon-tools.cc/portal/portal.php "opened" (or mounted) the file. I think the process was equivalent to making a virtual disk. This "file" is listed in Daemon Tools as Device 0: [D:] path-to-file on C. It's shown in My Computer next to the other dirves as OPO165001-10281 (D . In any case, after the second defrag, Ghost 2003 began to run. Yeah, I had to give it a good kicking before it was happy to find the space for the virtual dos boot on one system, same problem, just lack of space. Rather silly really when you'd often be using ghost to clone a hard drive that you are replacing with a new big drive. Drive Image does that much better. It shut down Windows and ran from DOS. After it completed, it started Windows again - still from the old drive. Ghost 2003 then displayed a message and Y/N buttons saying I needed to restart to get the settings for the new hardware to establish. I pressed No because I wanted to shut down rather than restart. Restarting wouldn't give me enough time to disconnect the old drive and change the jumper settings. I pressed No, and then shut down normally. Yeah, thats one reason for running ghost from the bootable rescue floppy, it wont auto restart into XP in that situation and thats a bit safer, the user cant select the wrong option. Forgot to mention that after you had bought a floppy drive. I then completely disconnected the old HD, left the new HD in its middle position on the ATA cable, and added the jumper to make the new HD master. I started, and Windows booted-up properly. I'm now using only the new drive. The same message about the hardware setting came up again, but I ignored. XP should have asked for a reboot with a message about new hardware. That can take some time to see tho. Now I'm going to send this, turn off, add the old drive, then start again. I'll see you then. And then a week's drunken celebration after all those hassles |-) Just dont try sleeping it off in a snow drift, you'll likely never wake up. |
#76
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- Nehmo -
Success! - almost complete, - Rod Speed - Dangerous business bragging before its all home and hosed |-) - Nehmo - So I got to thinking...Why should I reinstall the old drive at all? I now have 62 GB of free space. I can store a n y t h i n g ! The old drive is only 15GB, which was glorious its day, but that glory fleeted away. It has XP on it matched to this machine - maybe I should keep it unconnected and on a shelf. Then if someday I run into some malicious code that turns the working drive into mush, well, then I have an instant recourse. Somebody could even steal the whole computer (and if they didn't take the stuff on the shelf too), and I'd *still* have not lost a lot of my data - at least to the point of what I had earlier today. I'm convinced the old drive'll go in easily. And I might do it just for the accomplishment. But I'm gonna sleep on it. Anyway, Rod, _thank you_. -- ********************* * Nehmo Sergheyev * ********************* |
#77
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Nehmo Sergheyev wrote in message ... - Nehmo - Success! - almost complete, - Rod Speed - Dangerous business bragging before its all home and hosed |-) - Nehmo - So I got to thinking...Why should I reinstall the old drive at all? Why indeed with an old drive that small. I now have 62 GB of free space. I can store a n y t h i n g ! Wont hold my magnum opus, or the HD video of my latest exploits with sheep goats and camels. And dont try claiming that you dont want either of them, we can here the panting on the other side of the world. The old drive is only 15GB, which was glorious its day, but that glory fleeted away. Yep, time to pension it off. It has XP on it matched to this machine - maybe I should keep it unconnected and on a shelf. Yeah, I always do that for while with a new drive, just in case it dies an early death. Then if someday I run into some malicious code that turns the working drive into mush, well, then I have an instant recourse. Corse by then it will have got the sulks and killed itself... Somebody could even steal the whole computer (and if they didn't take the stuff on the shelf too), and I'd *still* have not lost a lot of my data - at least to the point of what I had earlier today. And if the new drive dies very quickly too. I'm convinced the old drive'll go in easily. And I might do it just for the accomplishment. But I'm gonna sleep on it. Yeah, I'd leave it out myself. Anyway, Rod, _thank you_. No problem, thats what these technical newsgroups are all about. |
#78
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1) I have never used a "ute" other than MS's Disk Manager (to remove
partitions) and Drive Image (to clone a drive). Multi-boot is an optional feature of Windows XP, and it appeared without the intervention of any "utes" and without my direction. 2) How does one tell Drive Image to clone a partition and not a physical drive? The user interface says it's copying a designated logical drive to a designated physical disk. The procedure is referred to by Drive Image as "copy drive". It's purpose is to make a bootable copy of a active partition. Perhaps you are using terminology and procedures peculiar to Norton Ghost and not to Drive Image. *TimDaniels* |
#79
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Timothy Daniels wrote in message ... 1) I have never used a "ute" other than MS's Disk Manager (to remove partitions) and Drive Image (to clone a drive). What did you do when the clone wouldnt boot ? Multi-boot is an optional feature of Windows XP, and it appeared without the intervention of any "utes" and without my direction. Cant see that you didnt use anything at all when the clone wouldnt boot. 2) How does one tell Drive Image to clone a partition and not a physical drive? You basically select a logical drive which is another way of describing a partition, instead of a physical drive, as the source. The user interface says it's copying a designated logical drive Which isnt a physical drive. to a designated physical disk. The procedure is referred to by Drive Image as "copy drive". It's purpose is to make a bootable copy of a active partition. It can copy both a partition and a physical drive. Perhaps you are using terminology and procedures peculiar to Norton Ghost and not to Drive Image. Nope. I mostly use DI because its got a better user interface. |
#80
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"Rod Speed" wrote:
I now have 62 GB of free space. I can store a n y t h i n g ! Wont hold my magnum opus, or the HD video of my latest exploits with sheep goats and camels. Ahh... Now the truth comes out. And dont try claiming that you dont want either of them, we can here the panting on the other side of the world. Or the de-panting. |
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