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#11
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I think it must be the power supply
Bill Anderson wrote:
Question: Could a failing power supply have been causing the video card flakiness? And if so, does it make any sense to replace the current power supply with the PC Power and Cooling unit when it arrives on Monday? The best way to tell, would be to connect an oscilloscope to the 12V rail, and watch what happens to the voltage, when the video card does a VPU recover. A multimeter may not be able to catch a quick dip in the voltages. Modern PCI Express video cards receive two voltages. They get 12V from the motherboard connector and from any aux connectors on the end of the card. They get 3.3V from the motherboard connector. I don't know what they use the 3.3V for, but usually a few watts is drawn from that. The 12V is converted by an onboard regulator. The chips themselves need relatively low voltages (like 1.5V or so at a large current), so 12V is not used directly. In theory, the onboard switching regulator should be able to tolerate a large range of voltages (say 6V to 16V). So it doesn't have to be picky about the voltage. It is a regulator after all. But if the input voltage drops to 6V, the input current to the switching regulator would double. (The regulator tends to have a constant power input, and that is how I can conclude it would double.) Doubling the current on the PCI Express slot connector input could damage the connector. The Aux connector on the end might not care as much. So it could be, that the video card has tighter tolerances to voltage variation, applied artificially by the circuit. Such that it "complains" about a lesser variation in voltage. To answer your question - 1) Does the replacement supply meet the needs of the hardware ? Is there any danger the current supply will have a reduced life, due to being operated near its service limit ? Is it a 68% efficient supply ? (A 68% efficient supply would tend to run hotter at a decent load.) 2) When *any* new supply arrives, there is always a small danger it will be either DOA or running out of spec. In the past, I would have judged PCPower to be above average on their product test - they still had duds, but not to the same extend as those companies that simply didn't care what they shipped. Check the reviews on Newegg now, for PCPower, and see if the quality still seems to be there. Since OCZ took over, there have been price drops. Who is to say, what streamlining of the manufacturing process has occurred as a result. I let the customer reviews decide that for me. Reviews are the best surveillance of any manufacturer and their decisions. Paul |
#12
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I think it must be the power supply
On Jan 29, 6:24*pm, Bill Anderson wrote:
Question: *Could a failing power supply have been causing the video card flakiness? *And if so, does it make any sense to replace the current power supply with the PC Power and Cooling unit when it arrives on Monday? If the power supply is not sufficiently sized, then get the system to fully load that power supply. That means executing complex graphics (ie a movie) while downloading from the internet, while playing a CD-Rom, while searching the hard drive, while ... Now the system is loading that power supply. If the power supply is sufficient, voltages from that supply will exceed 3.23, 4.87, and 11.7 volts on any one orange, red, purple, and yellow wires. Due to filtering throughout the power system, any voltage dip will be so slow as to be obvious even on a multimeter. Although the oscilloscope clearly provides superior information, a multimeter using those above numbers and sufficient loading is sufficient to detect a typically undersized supply. |
#13
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I think it must be the power supply
Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote: Question: Could a failing power supply have been causing the video card flakiness? And if so, does it make any sense to replace the current power supply with the PC Power and Cooling unit when it arrives on Monday? The best way to tell, would be to connect an oscilloscope to the 12V rail, and watch what happens to the voltage, when the video card does a VPU recover. A multimeter may not be able to catch a quick dip in the voltages. snip Paul: Here's what's happened so far: I sent the unit to OCZ and 2 or three weeks later (two days ago) it came back. When I opened the box I suspected I was looking at my original unit, as the rubber band I'd used to bind the wiring was still attached. No information was included to indicate what had been found or what had been done. So I sent a message to OCZ asking what had been done to the unit. The response was that the unit had been "repaired," but the technician who did the work had gone home for the day. Would I like the guy I was emailing to to ask the technician what had been done? I replied, "yes, please." Now today I've received this: Comment: Hello Bill, Does your power supply work now? Our technician could not find any problems with your power supply. It was thoroughly tested. Allen Chung So ... I responded as follows: Hi Allen: A few comments: 1) It's annoying that I must correspond with you via your "Add comment to trouble ticket" website. Because I can't see our past messages to each other -- because I have no record of what I've told you before -- I feel I must recap everything in every message. Can't you include an email trail in your responses? As it is, there's no record in my note this evening to indicate what I told you in the first place about my problem, nothing to explain why you thought an RMA might be required in the first place. 2) I pretty much suspected that even though in an earlier message you told me my power supply had been "repaired," nothing had been done to it. I'm not surprised. The problem was intermittent and I worried that you would get the PS and test it and find nothing wrong. 3) Thank you at least for following up and answering my questions about what has been done with the unit I sent you. But I must point out that if I'd received a note with the unit when it was returned, something along the lines of "Mr. Anderson, we couldn't find anything wrong with this unit, we think it's not the cause of your problem, and we recommend you re-install it," you and I could have been spared some unnecessary correspondence. At least I wouldn't have needed to treat this episode as a mystery needing to be solved. 4) I will re-install the power supply this evening. Who knows? Maybe it'll work with no problems for the life of my computer. Maybe the problem was caused by a loose connection. Maybe. But I'm telling you, when I removed the 610 watt PC Power and Cooling power supply and replaced it with a no-name 400 watt power supply, the problem went away. I have not experienced any of the symptoms I described to you in my first message since removing the PC Power and Cooling unit. But ... let's give it another go and keep our fingers crossed! Thanks for your attention to my difficulties. -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
#14
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I think it must be the power supply
Bill Anderson wrote:
Paul wrote: Bill Anderson wrote: Question: Could a failing power supply have been causing the video card flakiness? And if so, does it make any sense to replace the current power supply with the PC Power and Cooling unit when it arrives on Monday? The best way to tell, would be to connect an oscilloscope to the 12V rail, and watch what happens to the voltage, when the video card does a VPU recover. A multimeter may not be able to catch a quick dip in the voltages. snip Paul: Here's what's happened so far: I sent the unit to OCZ and 2 or three weeks later (two days ago) it came back. When I opened the box I suspected I was looking at my original unit, as the rubber band I'd used to bind the wiring was still attached. No information was included to indicate what had been found or what had been done. So I sent a message to OCZ asking what had been done to the unit. The response was that the unit had been "repaired," but the technician who did the work had gone home for the day. Would I like the guy I was emailing to to ask the technician what had been done? I replied, "yes, please." Now today I've received this: Comment: Hello Bill, Does your power supply work now? Our technician could not find any problems with your power supply. It was thoroughly tested. Allen Chung So ... I responded as follows: Hi Allen: A few comments: 1) It's annoying that I must correspond with you via your "Add comment to trouble ticket" website. Because I can't see our past messages to each other -- because I have no record of what I've told you before -- I feel I must recap everything in every message. Can't you include an email trail in your responses? As it is, there's no record in my note this evening to indicate what I told you in the first place about my problem, nothing to explain why you thought an RMA might be required in the first place. 2) I pretty much suspected that even though in an earlier message you told me my power supply had been "repaired," nothing had been done to it. I'm not surprised. The problem was intermittent and I worried that you would get the PS and test it and find nothing wrong. 3) Thank you at least for following up and answering my questions about what has been done with the unit I sent you. But I must point out that if I'd received a note with the unit when it was returned, something along the lines of "Mr. Anderson, we couldn't find anything wrong with this unit, we think it's not the cause of your problem, and we recommend you re-install it," you and I could have been spared some unnecessary correspondence. At least I wouldn't have needed to treat this episode as a mystery needing to be solved. 4) I will re-install the power supply this evening. Who knows? Maybe it'll work with no problems for the life of my computer. Maybe the problem was caused by a loose connection. Maybe. But I'm telling you, when I removed the 610 watt PC Power and Cooling power supply and replaced it with a no-name 400 watt power supply, the problem went away. I have not experienced any of the symptoms I described to you in my first message since removing the PC Power and Cooling unit. But ... let's give it another go and keep our fingers crossed! Thanks for your attention to my difficulties. I guess we'll know, when you do the test *again* and it fails :-( Paul |
#15
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I think it must be the power supply
Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote: 4) I will re-install the power supply this evening. Who knows? Maybe it'll work with no problems for the life of my computer. Maybe the problem was caused by a loose connection. Maybe. But I'm telling you, when I removed the 610 watt PC Power and Cooling power supply and replaced it with a no-name 400 watt power supply, the problem went away. I have not experienced any of the symptoms I described to you in my first message since removing the PC Power and Cooling unit. But ... let's give it another go and keep our fingers crossed! Thanks for your attention to my difficulties. I guess we'll know, when you do the test *again* and it fails :-( Paul I've received this follow-up: Comment: Hello Bill, I have tried creating test tickets to see what you see and did notice that you cannot see the history of these tickets. We use a third party service for these tickets and do not have immediate control over such features. I will ask our IT department about this function. Intermittent problems are the hardest to test for obvious reasons. If you find the problem persists, I will speak with our RMA team and find an option for you. So ... back in it goes and we'll see what happens. Hey, maybe it really was just a loose connection. -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
#16
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I think it must be the power supply
Paul wrote:
I guess we'll know, when you do the test *again* and it fails :-( I have a confession to make. In all this removing and installing of power supplies I discovered that the EATX12V connector on the P5K had a cap on it that covered four of eight holes. The PC Power and Cooling power supply has a four-pin plug which I have been using, and it also has an eight-pin plug which has been idle for the year and a half since I built the computer. I'd never noticed that cap. So tonight I popped it off and now I'm using all eight pins on the EATX12V connector. Hope that makes a difference. We'll see. -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
#17
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I think it must be the power supply
Bill Anderson wrote:
Paul wrote: I guess we'll know, when you do the test *again* and it fails :-( I have a confession to make. In all this removing and installing of power supplies I discovered that the EATX12V connector on the P5K had a cap on it that covered four of eight holes. The PC Power and Cooling power supply has a four-pin plug which I have been using, and it also has an eight-pin plug which has been idle for the year and a half since I built the computer. I'd never noticed that cap. So tonight I popped it off and now I'm using all eight pins on the EATX12V connector. Hope that makes a difference. We'll see. For anyone who's still interested, here's the note I sent to PC Power and Cooling tonight: Hi Allen: Last night I removed my no-name power supply (actually it's a 400 watt ATX12V 2.01 Professional Power Supply from StarTech.com) and replaced it with my old PC Power and Cooling unit which you returned without repair. It ran just fine and after a few hours of use I shut it down and went to bed. I did not turn it on this morning before I left for work. I returned home around 8:00 this evening and when I turned it on, the unit powered up but my monitor remained dark -- it was getting no video signal. I know this because the little blue light on the monitor just blinked, meaning it was getting neither an analog nor a digital signal. After a minute or two of waiting, I pressed the reset button -- and once again, as I've described to you before, weird things happened. The computer powered down, began to power up again, and then just shut down completely. I pressed the power button again and again and got no response. So just to see, I unplugged the power cord from the PC Power and Cooling PS, waited a few moments, and then plugged it in again. Then I pressed the power button one more time and voila -- the computer powered up and it's working fine and I'm able to type this message. Now remember -- my spare 400 watt no-name power supply performed flawlessly the entire time my PC Power and Cooling PS was away for repair/replacement. So I hope you can understand what I'm thinking when I consider that my computer works fine with the no-name PS installed, but it's flaky when the PC Power and Cooling PS is installed. What I'm thinking is that there's something wrong with the PC Power and Cooling power supply. Yep, that's what I'm thinking, all right. And don't you think the same thing? Don't you think a new or refurbished PS is in order? -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
#18
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I think it must be the power supply
Paul wrote:
Bill Anderson wrote: Paul wrote: Bill Anderson wrote: Question: Could a failing power supply have been causing the video card flakiness? And if so, does it make any sense to replace the current power supply with the PC Power and Cooling unit when it arrives on Monday? The best way to tell, would be to connect an oscilloscope to the 12V rail, and watch what happens to the voltage, when the video card does a VPU recover. A multimeter may not be able to catch a quick dip in the voltages. snip Paul: Here's what's happened so far: I sent the unit to OCZ and 2 or three weeks later (two days ago) it came back. When I opened the box I suspected I was looking at my original unit, as the rubber band I'd used to bind the wiring was still attached. No information was included to indicate what had been found or what had been done. So I sent a message to OCZ asking what had been done to the unit. The response was that the unit had been "repaired," but the technician who did the work had gone home for the day. Would I like the guy I was emailing to to ask the technician what had been done? I replied, "yes, please." Now today I've received this: Comment: Hello Bill, Does your power supply work now? Our technician could not find any problems with your power supply. It was thoroughly tested. Allen Chung So ... I responded as follows: Hi Allen: A few comments: 1) It's annoying that I must correspond with you via your "Add comment to trouble ticket" website. Because I can't see our past messages to each other -- because I have no record of what I've told you before -- I feel I must recap everything in every message. Can't you include an email trail in your responses? As it is, there's no record in my note this evening to indicate what I told you in the first place about my problem, nothing to explain why you thought an RMA might be required in the first place. 2) I pretty much suspected that even though in an earlier message you told me my power supply had been "repaired," nothing had been done to it. I'm not surprised. The problem was intermittent and I worried that you would get the PS and test it and find nothing wrong. 3) Thank you at least for following up and answering my questions about what has been done with the unit I sent you. But I must point out that if I'd received a note with the unit when it was returned, something along the lines of "Mr. Anderson, we couldn't find anything wrong with this unit, we think it's not the cause of your problem, and we recommend you re-install it," you and I could have been spared some unnecessary correspondence. At least I wouldn't have needed to treat this episode as a mystery needing to be solved. 4) I will re-install the power supply this evening. Who knows? Maybe it'll work with no problems for the life of my computer. Maybe the problem was caused by a loose connection. Maybe. But I'm telling you, when I removed the 610 watt PC Power and Cooling power supply and replaced it with a no-name 400 watt power supply, the problem went away. I have not experienced any of the symptoms I described to you in my first message since removing the PC Power and Cooling unit. But ... let's give it another go and keep our fingers crossed! Thanks for your attention to my difficulties. I guess we'll know, when you do the test *again* and it fails :-( Paul Well look here -- I've come back to update a thread that's almost a year old. Never thought it would take this long to revisit the subject, but here I am again. To recap: Last February my computer would refuse to post when I turned it on in the mornings. The fans would fire up and the optical disk drive light would come on, but no post, no boot. So I'd hold the power button in for about five seconds and the power would shut off and I'd push the button again and this time the computer would post and boot -- or not. Repeat, repeat, repeat, ah ... there's the beep and we're in business. My best guess, and the best guess around here, was that the power supply was the problem. When I removed my PC Power and Cooling power supply and replaced it with a no-name spare, the problem went away. Ah-hah! So I told my story to a nice technician at PC Power and Cooling and he had me ship the unit back to him and in a few days it came back to me unchanged. They "could not find any problems." So I put it back in the computer as described above and to my complete surprise the computer has been posting and booting flawlessly ever since. At least it has until about a week ago. Now I'm back to where I was before -- power on, no post, power off, power on, no post, power off, power on, BEEP!, and everything works great. Maybe it takes one retry, maybe five. But eventually the computer will post. At least that's how it's been so far. I've put the no-name power supply back in the computer and it's running fine. I'm going to give it a few days to see if the problem returns with the no-name PS. If it does, I'll know the problem is with the motherboard or memory or something. If I go several weeks with no problem, I'll probably put the PC Power and Cooling PS back in to see if the problem returns. If it does, then I'll call PC Power and Cooling (or whoever owns them now -- OCZ) and fuss. If it works with no problem, well, maybe I'll get another year's worth of use out of it. Can anybody think of something other than the PS that would cause this sort of behavior? -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
#19
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I think it must be the power supply
On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:15:18 -0500, Bill Anderson
wrote: Well look here -- I've come back to update a thread that's almost a year old. Never thought it would take this long to revisit the subject, but here I am again. To recap: Last February my computer would refuse to post when I turned it on in the mornings. The fans would fire up and the optical disk drive light would come on, but no post, no boot. So I'd hold the power button in for about five seconds and the power would shut off and I'd push the button again and this time the computer would post and boot -- or not. Repeat, repeat, repeat, ah ... there's the beep and we're in business. My best guess, and the best guess around here, was that the power supply was the problem. When I removed my PC Power and Cooling power supply and replaced it with a no-name spare, the problem went away. Ah-hah! So I told my story to a nice technician at PC Power and Cooling and he had me ship the unit back to him and in a few days it came back to me unchanged. They "could not find any problems." I've only remembered to do this once, but when one returns something, it's good to put a very small mark on it somewhere, so when he gets it back, he can tell if it is the same one or not. In your case they were honest with you, I guess, but not everyone is. Sometimes I think they pretend to replace something but just send the same one back. Similarly when you return something at a store that you know doesn't work right, you can check if they put yours out for sale again. A small mark, tiny enough that it won't be noticed by the next buyer (if repaired or sold without being repaired), is best. I think this happened to me or someone I know with a fairly expensive piece of electronics once that they just put it out for sale again. So I put it back in the computer as described above and to my complete surprise the computer has been posting and booting flawlessly ever since. At least it has until about a week ago. Now I'm back to where I was before -- power on, no post, power off, power on, no post, power off, power on, BEEP!, and everything works great. Maybe it takes one retry, maybe five. But eventually the computer will post. At least that's how it's been so far. I've put the no-name power supply back in the computer and it's running fine. I'm going to give it a few days to see if the problem returns with the no-name PS. If it does, I'll know the problem is with the motherboard or memory or something. If I go several weeks with no problem, I'll probably put the PC Power and Cooling PS back in to see if the problem returns. If it does, then I'll call PC Power and Cooling (or whoever owns them now -- OCZ) and fuss. If it works with no problem, well, maybe I'll get another year's worth of use out of it. You're pretty throrough. I think I'd be convinced by now, but your method is better. Can anybody think of something other than the PS that would cause this sort of behavior? |
#20
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I think it must be the power supply
Bob wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:15:18 -0500, Bill Anderson wrote: Well look here -- I've come back to update a thread that's almost a year old. Never thought it would take this long to revisit the subject, but here I am again. To recap: Last February my computer would refuse to post when I turned it on in the mornings. The fans would fire up and the optical disk drive light would come on, but no post, no boot. So I'd hold the power button in for about five seconds and the power would shut off and I'd push the button again and this time the computer would post and boot -- or not. Repeat, repeat, repeat, ah ... there's the beep and we're in business. My best guess, and the best guess around here, was that the power supply was the problem. When I removed my PC Power and Cooling power supply and replaced it with a no-name spare, the problem went away. Ah-hah! OK, I really need some help now. This morning, with the no-name spare PS installed, I powered up the computer but it didn't post. I powered down as described above, waited a few seconds, and pushed the power button again. This time the computer powered up and after a few seconds it powered down. Then it powered up again and then it powered down. Then it powered up and then it powered down again, this time for good. I didn't touch the computer at all during this -- I just watched in amazement. Then I pushed the power button and powered up and no post. So I powered down and powered up again and this time I got a beep and now all is well. The problem isn't the power supply. But what could it be? I don't know what to look at first. Help? -- Bill Anderson I am the Mighty Favog |
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