TV Cards - Did you know?

Johannes H Andersen wrote:


Bagpuss wrote:

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:05:21 +0000, Johannes H Andersen
wrote:


We're talking about TV cards here. Presumably TVLA have wised up to such
card as they certainly can be considered as TV receiving equipment. Hence
a computer dealer selling TV cards *is* selling TV equipment and in that
sense also a TV dealer. This has nothing to do with whether the said
equipment is installed to receive TV or not, this is the buyers problem.

Hence a TV licence for the buyer of the TV card is only required if he
installs and uses the TV card. If he installs the card, then this is a
gray area since the only rational reason for installing the card would
to use it at some point for receiving TV, otherwise why install it in
the first place.

From what I recall they were trying to push a requirement of all
computer vendors who sell PCs with "broadband" adapters to register
too.

Yes, this seems completely out of order to me. How far down that road
do you go? Someone buying electronic components: transistors, resistors
and capacitors could in principle build a TV tuner, so are these
components also TV receiving equipment? Of course not. The difference is
that the TV card comes complete with instructions to install and receive
TV channels. The broadband adapter does not.

In any case, the registering by the dealer does not necessarily mean that
a TV license is required, but it is part of their intimidation.

I suppose the next stage is a licence to have filings as people have
been know to pick up radio via fillings. :-)

I have just terminated my TV license by end of January. I thought that it
was poor value and needed to save up some money, so I'm taking a TV pause.
In any case, I'm allowed to choose what I spend my money on.

You have to explicitly terminate the licence, otherwise they will
automatically backdate it next time you apply for a new licence. This is
one of their little known tricks they're allowed to do. (See small print
on the licence application).


Hmmm, but at least they can't fine/prosecute you for failing to inform
them like the DVLA (as per my reply to Bagpuss).

I expect the invisible van to come round any time soon, so I have no
intentions of any sneak viewing, but I expect to be harassed a bit.

In article , Craven Birds
writes

Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer
it cannot receive a TV signal!

Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or
record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid
TV Licence."


Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio
but never to view TV?

Alternatively...
If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV
aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"?
--
Tom

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:02:05 +0000, Mike Scott
k wrote:

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:22:24 +0000, Bagpuss wrote:

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 09:08:16 +0000, Mike Scott
k wrote:

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 01:13:16 +0000, Johannes H Andersen
wrote:
...
Hence a TV licence for the buyer of the TV card is only required if he
installs and uses the TV card. If he installs the card, then this is a
gray area since the only rational reason for installing the card would
to use it at some point for receiving TV, otherwise why install it in
the first place.

Umm, to connect a security camera to?

But do you need a TV decoder to do this? The problem is the decoder

It's easy and cards are cheap.

Yep, so is a TV (well 2nd hand from a junk shop or papers) but it
still means you need a licence,

Just a theoretical observation - I do
use the card for teletext reception anyway so need a licence.

Its the capability of the card not the usage that is what they care
about. You don't get a discount if you have the TV switched off for a
week, sadly.


bit to pick up and decode the TV signals. Its OK to have a monitor
feed ro the like which is used for closed circuit cameras. In that
case you should be using a video capture card not a TV decoder if you
don't want them at the door. Even then they will still insist on
harrasing you.

They seem at times to go on the "you don't have a licenence then you
must be watching TV illegally". A friend of mine got taken to court
for not having a TV licence for a broken TV. He didn't have a licence
becuase he couldn't afford to repair/replace the TV so thought there
was no point in buying a licence for a non functioning device.
Thankfully IIRC it got thrown out of court [1].

I do btw now have a TV and licence. But I was rather embarrassed some
years ago, when we didn't have a TV (or computer) (yes, some people do
live that way :-) ). I had one of the "you're unlicensed" threatening
letters, which arrived a week before we actually went out to buy a TV.
I still wonder whether the ptb (powers that be - a new tla? :-) )
thought we'd been bludgeoned into becoming legal!

Oh I bet they probably did.

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:10:31 +0000, Parish wrote:

Bagpuss wrote:
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:05:21 +0000, Johannes H Andersen
wrote:


We're talking about TV cards here. Presumably TVLA have wised up to such
card as they certainly can be considered as TV receiving equipment. Hence
a computer dealer selling TV cards *is* selling TV equipment and in that
sense also a TV dealer. This has nothing to do with whether the said
equipment is installed to receive TV or not, this is the buyers problem.

Hence a TV licence for the buyer of the TV card is only required if he
installs and uses the TV card. If he installs the card, then this is a
gray area since the only rational reason for installing the card would
to use it at some point for receiving TV, otherwise why install it in
the first place.

From what I recall they were trying to push a requirement of all
computer vendors who sell PCs with "broadband" adapters to register
too.

Yes, this seems completely out of order to me. How far down that road
do you go? Someone buying electronic components: transistors, resistors
and capacitors could in principle build a TV tuner, so are these
components also TV receiving equipment? Of course not. The difference is
that the TV card comes complete with instructions to install and receive
TV channels. The broadband adapter does not.

In any case, the registering by the dealer does not necessarily mean that
a TV license is required, but it is part of their intimidation.

I suppose the next stage is a licence to have filings as people have
been know to pick up radio via fillings. :-)

I hope no-one in the Govt. is reading this thread or it may well happen ;-)

Sadly, this is just another example of this, and previous, Govts. coming
up with ever more ways to screw money out of us (aka Stealth Tax).

The DVLA is even worse than TV Licensing. We all know that, with a few
exceptions, if you use a motor vehicle on the public roads then you need
a valid tax disk, but now since SORN was introduced 10(?) years ago you
are committing an offence if you don't tell the DVLA that you are not
using your vehicle on the road. Obviously this is to aid the DVLA and
Police target those who are using unlicensed vehicles but it,
potentially, turns law-abiding citizens into criminals.

Even worse you now have to tell them every year that its off the road.
Even after selling on a m/cycle to a frien we are getting tax renewal
notices on a bike that has been off the road for 7 years. The stupid
thing is that its been off the road since before you needed the anual
renewal of the SORN. Once we moved address they started pestering us
for an anual form even though its was just a change of address. Its a
PITA.


What next, you have to fill in a form, under pain of prosecution and a
£1000 fine, stating that you don't/no longer have TV receiving eqipment?

Heh I guess you read the other fork of the thread. I guess with enough
back dating they could get that out of you.

I expect they would love this to come into place though.

"Tom Ruben" wrote in message
...
In article , Craven Birds
writes

Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a
computer
it cannot receive a TV signal!

Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to
receive or
record television programme services you are required by law to have
a valid
TV Licence."


Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio
but never to view TV?

Alternatively...
If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV
aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"?
--
Tom

No Its a licence to use a receiver. Whether you watch any Broadcasts is
immaterial.

Bagpuss wrote:

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 13:10:31 +0000, Parish wrote:

Bagpuss wrote:
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 11:05:21 +0000, Johannes H Andersen
wrote:


We're talking about TV cards here. Presumably TVLA have wised up to such
card as they certainly can be considered as TV receiving equipment. Hence
a computer dealer selling TV cards *is* selling TV equipment and in that
sense also a TV dealer. This has nothing to do with whether the said
equipment is installed to receive TV or not, this is the buyers problem.

Hence a TV licence for the buyer of the TV card is only required if he
installs and uses the TV card. If he installs the card, then this is a
gray area since the only rational reason for installing the card would
to use it at some point for receiving TV, otherwise why install it in
the first place.

From what I recall they were trying to push a requirement of all
computer vendors who sell PCs with "broadband" adapters to register
too.

Yes, this seems completely out of order to me. How far down that road
do you go? Someone buying electronic components: transistors, resistors
and capacitors could in principle build a TV tuner, so are these
components also TV receiving equipment? Of course not. The difference is
that the TV card comes complete with instructions to install and receive
TV channels. The broadband adapter does not.

In any case, the registering by the dealer does not necessarily mean that
a TV license is required, but it is part of their intimidation.

I suppose the next stage is a licence to have filings as people have
been know to pick up radio via fillings. :-)

I hope no-one in the Govt. is reading this thread or it may well happen ;-)

Sadly, this is just another example of this, and previous, Govts. coming
up with ever more ways to screw money out of us (aka Stealth Tax).

The DVLA is even worse than TV Licensing. We all know that, with a few
exceptions, if you use a motor vehicle on the public roads then you need
a valid tax disk, but now since SORN was introduced 10(?) years ago you
are committing an offence if you don't tell the DVLA that you are not
using your vehicle on the road. Obviously this is to aid the DVLA and
Police target those who are using unlicensed vehicles but it,
potentially, turns law-abiding citizens into criminals.

Even worse you now have to tell them every year that its off the road.

I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me.

Even after selling on a m/cycle to a frien we are getting tax renewal
notices on a bike that has been off the road for 7 years. The stupid
thing is that its been off the road since before you needed the anual
renewal of the SORN. Once we moved address they started pestering us
for an anual form even though its was just a change of address. Its a
PITA.


The worst case of this beaurocratic (sp?) terrorism that I've come
across was from a former colleague of mine. A neighbour of his in his
late 50's/early 60's was disabled and unable to work due to have had a
large sectin of his stomach etc. removed due to cancer. He had a beat-up
old Robin Reliant (which he needed as his wife was riddled with
arthritis) that he only managed to keep on the road because my
colleague, who enjoyed "tinkering" with cars, kept it running and MOT'd
using bits from scrapyards.

This bloke then contracted Tuberculosis, which is serious enough anyway
but with his health it was even more so. During the months it took him
to recover, mostly in hospital, the tax ran out on his car and
ultimately he got a SORN "fine". He was in no fit state to deal with it
and his wife, who knew nothing about these things, panicked when she got
a letter "from the Government" saying, in essence, "give us £20 or we'll
take you to court and fine you £1000" and paid the £20 which they could
ill afford.

When she showed the letter to my colleague (who was on holiday when it
arrived) he 'phoned the DVLA to explain the mitigating circumstances but
was told that she should have contacted them when the letter arrived and
they would have almost certainly waived the fine but that whilst they
sympathized they had no system in place to refund the money.

Good to know that the Govt. looks after you when your old and/or inform,
isn't it?


What next, you have to fill in a form, under pain of prosecution and a
£1000 fine, stating that you don't/no longer have TV receiving eqipment?

Heh I guess you read the other fork of the thread. I guess with enough
back dating they could get that out of you.

I expect they would love this to come into place though.

Tom Ruben wrote:

In article , Craven Birds
writes

Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer
it cannot receive a TV signal!

Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or
record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid
TV Licence."


Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio
but never to view TV?

Alternatively...
If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV
aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"?

I would expect so, after all that is the same as having a TV that you
only use for watching videos - you still need a licence. ISTR there have
been people who've tried that one in the past, even being able to prove
that the RF circuitry doesn't work.

Perhaps on of the electrical/electronic gurus here can answer this. On
the TV Licensing website (click DETECTION, TV Detector Vans) it says:

"We can detect a TV in use, in any area. That's because every TV
contains a component called the 'local oscillator', which emits a signal
when the television is switched on. It's this signal that the equipment
on our vans picks up."

Now, is this local oscillator signal emitted from the set itself, or
from the aerial? If it's the former then a TV card in a PC (as opposed
to an external USB jobbie) would be undetectable because (modern) PC
cases are EMC/RFI shielded.

Parish wrote:

Tom Ruben wrote:

In article , Craven Birds
writes

Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer
it cannot receive a TV signal!

Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or
record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid
TV Licence."


Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio
but never to view TV?

Alternatively...
If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV
aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"?

I would expect so, after all that is the same as having a TV that you
only use for watching videos - you still need a licence. ISTR there have
been people who've tried that one in the past, even being able to prove
that the RF circuitry doesn't work.

Perhaps on of the electrical/electronic gurus here can answer this. On
the TV Licensing website (click DETECTION, TV Detector Vans) it says:

"We can detect a TV in use, in any area. That's because every TV
contains a component called the 'local oscillator', which emits a signal
when the television is switched on. It's this signal that the equipment
on our vans picks up."

Now, is this local oscillator signal emitted from the set itself, or
from the aerial? If it's the former then a TV card in a PC (as opposed
to an external USB jobbie) would be undetectable because (modern) PC
cases are EMC/RFI shielded.

The local osc frequency is characteristic for the channel received.
In the super heterodyne receiver principle, the local osc frequency is the
received frequency minus a fixed amount.

Since the local oscillator is close to the input stage, the signal may
leak across into the TV antenna. Their equipment is presumably highly
sensitive and selectively tuned. The short detection distances also makes
things much easier. This is in contrast to RF interference where the
signal has to break a barrier of filters. Given that they probably have
unlimited resources for the equipment they use, I can very well imagine
that they are able to pick up the local oscillator signal from a PC card.

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:48:38 +0000, Tom Ruben
wrote:

In article , Craven Birds
writes

Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer
it cannot receive a TV signal!

Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or
record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid
TV Licence."


Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio
but never to view TV?

Alternatively...
If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV
aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"?

AFAIK, yes as you are in ownership of working equipment capable of
picking up a TV signal. Its much the same as owning a TV and not
switching it on then saying its OK as you don't watch TV.

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 16:04:10 +0000, Johannes H Andersen
wrote:



Parish wrote:

Tom Ruben wrote:

In article , Craven Birds
writes

Absolute rubbish! There is no obligation, because whilst not in a computer
it cannot receive a TV signal!

Quote: "If you use or install television receiving equipment to receive or
record television programme services you are required by law to have a valid
TV Licence."


Does this apply if you install a TV/FM card for listening to FM radio
but never to view TV?

Alternatively...
If you install a TV/FM card and plug into it an FM aerial but not a TV
aerial, is this covered by "install television receiving equipment"?

I would expect so, after all that is the same as having a TV that you
only use for watching videos - you still need a licence. ISTR there have
been people who've tried that one in the past, even being able to prove
that the RF circuitry doesn't work.

Perhaps on of the electrical/electronic gurus here can answer this. On
the TV Licensing website (click DETECTION, TV Detector Vans) it says:

"We can detect a TV in use, in any area. That's because every TV
contains a component called the 'local oscillator', which emits a signal
when the television is switched on. It's this signal that the equipment
on our vans picks up."

Now, is this local oscillator signal emitted from the set itself, or
from the aerial? If it's the former then a TV card in a PC (as opposed
to an external USB jobbie) would be undetectable because (modern) PC
cases are EMC/RFI shielded.

Modern cases are not that well shielded at all.


The local osc frequency is characteristic for the channel received.
In the super heterodyne receiver principle, the local osc frequency is the
received frequency minus a fixed amount.

Since the local oscillator is close to the input stage, the signal may
leak across into the TV antenna. Their equipment is presumably highly
sensitive and selectively tuned. The short detection distances also makes
things much easier. This is in contrast to RF interference where the
signal has to break a barrier of filters. Given that they probably have
unlimited resources for the equipment they use, I can very well imagine
that they are able to pick up the local oscillator signal from a PC card.

AFAIK yes, the local oscillator is around 39mHz IIRC, that is what is
picked up by the detector units. Of course the first hit is just to
check all houses without a licence and barrarge them with scare
letters.