PartitionMagic Question

"Harvey Gratt" wrote in message
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I'm trying to verify whether PartitionMagic 8.01
will automatically "fix" the boot.ini file and
the
partition boot sector where it resides during
the
rearrangement of disk partitions.

Specifically, say I have an XP primary, active
partition as the third partition on my HDD. The
first two partitions are logical partitions.
Initially, the boot.ini file would point to the
third partition.

If I now delete the first two partitions so as
to
make the XP partition the first partition, will
PartitionMagic automatically rewrite the
boot.ini
file to make it point to the first partition so
as
to make subsequent boot-ups possible?

Thanks,
Harvey










I wouldn't have thought so. You are in fact
delting
the boot.ini file when you delete the first 2
partitions, so where will the boot.ini file be?
Deleted as well, I say.
You will have to create another boot.ini file on
the
same partition you want to boot from.



I appear to be mis-understanding something. I
thought
the boot.ini file resided in the "partition boot
sector" which, in the original setup, would have
been
located in the third partition (active, primary).

If not where does it reside? Are the "partition
boot
sector (PBS)", boot.ini file always located at a
specific location on the HDD - I thought this was
true
only of the MBR, which in turn pointed to the PBS
(which is located at an arbitrary location). Is my
understanding incorrect - it would appear so.










Sounds comprehensively mangled to me.

The boot.ini file is a file in a particular
partition,
it wont even fit in a PBS.

More likely something works out which is the
bootable
partition
on a particular physical drive and something works
out
where the
boot.ini is from that and reads it from the
appropriate
partition.

Dont know the answer to your original question, I'd
personally
ghost the entire physical drive so you can recover
gracefully
of PM didnt handle the deletion of the logical
drives
properly.
Cant see why it shouldnt.


I guess this gets down to understanding the boot
process. My current state of confusion is:

1. The MBR is read from a fixed location on the HDD.

2. The code in the MBR eventually points to a
bootable
partition (there may be more than one, but I guess
only
one is active at a time) and jumps to the PBS of the
active partition.

3. Code in the PBS then starts to load the OS,
eventually reading the boot.ini file located in that
partition's root directory (as you indicated)

4. Now, if the boot.ini file contains lines for
mutiple
OS's, a menu appears. A selection here would then
cause
a jump to the approriate partition for the loading
of
the selected OS.

My head hurts. Does the above seem correct? If not,
what
does happen?

Thanks,
Harvey








Where is NTLDR? Which partition is that on?



Well, if my understanding is remotely correct, I would
think it's located on the active partition pointed to
by
the MBR. I guess the MBR points to the PBS which
contains
code to start the loader function (NTLDR). NTLDR is
probably located on the active partition and it would
access the boot.ini file.

Harvey


Go to: Windows Explorer, Tools, Folder Options.
In Folder Options click on the View tab at the top.
Then un tick Hide protected operating system files.

When you have done that, have a look in the root of
each
partition to loctate NTLDR. So, is it in the OS
partition
or any of the others?

Anyway to keep things nice and sipmle, if you are only
using 1 OS why don't you just put boot.ini in the
ctaive
Primary partition, if you are going to delete the
others.



It is in the root directory. So it appears that the 4
step
process I described is essentially correct. However,
this
thread seems to have wandered off course.

I guess the answer to the original question is that
PartitionMagic (PM) WILL NOT correctly change the
boot.ini
file. So one question is, will the boot process get all
the
way to the active partition boot sector (PBS),via the
MBR,
(which I assume that PM CAN correctly set up) and then
hang
because the boot.ini file points to a non-existent
partition
(originally the third partition)?

A second question is:

Assume I install the Recovery Console in the OS in the
original third partition. When I go thru all the
manipulations as above, will the boot process bring up
the
Recovery Console (so I can fix the boot.ini file without
needing an XP cd) instead of hanging?

Thanks,
Harvey




What root directory of what partition is NTLDR in?
I believe in the KISS theory, and like I said, if you are
only using ONE OS, why don't you make sure NTLDR and
boot.ini
are in the root directory of the first active partition
for
the OS.

I would not put trust in PM to rebuild/make place any
files
on another partition from whence they were moved. Sounds
too
complicated to me.


On my IBM laptop they (ntldr and boot.ini)are in the root
directory (C:\) of the active, bootable partition
containing
XP.

Harvey


Ok, so if that is the present case, what was your point
then?????

If you install either Win2k or WinXP on any partition other
than the first active primary partition, the OS will by
default
place boot.ini, NTLDR and NTDETECT.COM among others on that
first active primary partition. If you delete that
partition,
then you cannot boot WinXp or Win2k without first
moving/copying those files to the root of the OS and then
making that the first active partition.
But, whatever way you do it, the said files must be in the
first active partition.
Perhaps someone else who is more knowledgeable about the
multiboot process may have further information here. I know
you
did not say anything about multiboot, but what you want to
do,
if I unsderstand you correctly goes someway towards that.


The original "point" was that the OS resided in the third
partition of the HDD. The first two partitions was logical
partitions and were to be deleted. The ntldr and boot.ini
files
are located in the root directory of the third partition
(the
only active, bootable partition). The boot.ini file would
have
an ARC path pointing to this third partition.

So, the original question was could PM be used to delete the
first 2 partitions (yes to this) and would PM correctly fix
the
boot.ini file so that the ARC path pointed to the first
partition where the OS (ntldr and boot.ini are in the root
directory of this partition) now resides (apparently not).


This appears to be where you are confusing yourself.

Since everything is setup to boot the partition that the OS
is
installed
on, I cant see why deleting the logical partitions changes
anything on
that. It isnt as if there is something that says 'boot the
third
partition'
and so that fails when it becomes the only partition after
the
deletion
of the logical partitions.









A second question was (assuming the boot.ini pointed to the
wrong partition):


Assume I install the Recovery Console in the OS in the
original
third partition. When I go thru all the manipulations as
above,
will
the boot process bring up the Recovery Console (so I can fix
the
boot.ini file without needing an XP cd) instead of hanging?


You can always boot the CD and do whatever repair is
necessary

from there.

http://support.microsoft.com/default...b;en-us;330184

The obvious approach would be to run bootcfg /scan
and get it to re-enumerate the available OSs, just one
in your case, with its new partition number.


On my Dell Desktop, which has 2 partitions (the first is a
diagnostic partition, the second is the XP partition) the
boot.ini
file looks like:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)p artition(2)\WINDOWS
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition (2)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows
XP
Professional" /fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn


I would think that the boot.ini entries of ...partition(2)
would
have to change to ...partition(1) after the diagnostic
partition
is deleted.


Presumably. Havent actually tried it tho.








Otherwise, boot.ini points to a non-existent partition from
which
the OS is to be loaded, and the boot process would hang.


But you arent necessarily going to just delete that
diagnostic partition. Or are you planning to expand the
OS partition to include the space its currently occupying ?



The idea was to completely remove the diagnostic partition,
leaving
only one partition (OS partition). I assume that would imply
that
the OS partition would be expanded to reclaim the space obtained
by
deleting the diagnostic partition.


To return to your original question, I'd be surprised if
PM actually edits the boot.ini, but I havent tried that.


Not sure what happens if the boot.ini has a non existent
partition
number
in that line you listed. Its possible that if there is only one
partition on the physical drive it will just assume that thats
the
one intended.


Just checked that by manually editing the boot.ini in a system which
has a single XP partition on boot drive, changing the partition numbers
in both lines from the original 1 to 3 and XP is so stupid that it just
gives
up and doesnt give you any opportunity to run the recovery console.

Booted the XP CD, ran the recovery console from there, ran
bootcfg /rebuild
and it found the only OS installation and just asked what to call it
etc.

That produced a boot menu at boot time because the original dud entry
was still there, but that was easy to edit out once the full XP booted
again.




No big deal if it doesnt, just boot the CD and run bootcfg
/rebuild

from the recovery console and have it redo the boot.ini and fix
it.


Yeah, the XP cd route appears to be the way to handle this.
However,
my other question was whether one could install the XP recovery
Console prior to manipulating the partitions.


You dont need to install it, you basically run it from the booted
CD.






What I hope would happen is that the Recovery Console comes up
first,
before the boot process hangs trying to find the non-existent
partition.


Yeah, it probably does.






The repair could then be done at that point without needing the
cd.


You could always just edit the boot.ini manually if you dont have
the
cd.


Chicken before the egg???


Nope.





If I can't boot to the OS, I can't edit the boot.ini file unless
it's
done before the whole process.


You can boot another OS from floppy or CD.

The knoppix CD would allow you to edit it.





I believe that's why you need to do the repair either from the cd or

from the Recovery Console if the above works.


Nope.





The problem I face is that some of my machines did not come with an
XP
cd. And, an OEM cd (like Dell) will not work


Any bootable XP CD will do fine, it doesnt have to be the one
used to install XP on that particular machine to edit the boot.ini





- so that's why the question about the Recovery Console.


See above.



Are you saying that a Dell XP cd, which is tied to the Dell BIOS, will
still allow me to access the Recovery Console?

Dunno. I was actually talking about a standard XP CD.

It doesnt have to be the CD that was used to install
XP on that particular machine, it can be any XP CD.

Havent played with a Dell XP CD.

If you dont have a standard XP CD you
can get one off the web using torrent etc.

Knoppix is certain to allow you to edit the boot.ini too.
You would however need some minimal linux knowledge.


Thanks for testing it out. Just to be certain, you did have the Recovery
Console installed so it would normally come up during the boot process?


Nope, and I think its unlikely that would make any difference given
that whatever puts the message up isnt likely to know where it is
when its decided that the boot.ini entry that has an impossible partition
number for the physical drive and so cant work out what to boot.



You then modified the boot.ini file


I did that from the fully booted XP.



and the machine hung without showing the Console?


No, it says that the drive isnt bootable and doesnt give
you any options. If you hit enter it just reboots again.



If so, that really sucks.


Yeah, it is a tad crude.



A bootable XP cd is then required.


Or something that allows the boot.ini to be manually edited, anyway.

That isnt hard, the knoppix CD should, and so should the PE bootable CDs
too.



Thanks Rod. I appreciate your taking the time to investigate this.


No probs, it was an interesting question for me.

My understanding is that the Recovery Console installation puts an entry
into
the boot.ini file so that when the file is parsed and executed the Console
comes up. If this happens prior to looking for the boot partition, then the
process may work as I had hoped.

Any chance of you being sufficiently interested to try this out?

Not trivial to do in my case.

When I try to do it, it moans that the version
of Win on the system is newer than on the CD.

The CD is XP Pro with SP1 slipstreamed
and I have since applied SP2 to that system.

I have been meaning to make am XP Pro with SP2
slipstreamed, but havent gotten around to doing that.

Just done it.

Yes, the recovery console is added to the list of what to boot.

Yes, when the boot.ini is deliberately edited to include a partition
number that does not exist, you can still run the recovery console
and bootcfg /rebuild works fine from that and makes XP bootable
again. You can obviously manually clean up the boot.ini after that
to get it back to the original with the correct partition number used.


One potential problem tho is that the recovery console gets a
completely different format entry in the boot.ini which is in the format
C:\CMDCONS\BOOTSECT.DAT="Microsoft Windows Recovery Console" /cmdcons

Not too clear what would happen to the drive letter
in your case, what it would get initially and what it
would be after the deletion of the diagnostic partition.

Its possible it wouldnt be able to find that to load the recovery console.
Thanks. I think it's worth adding the RC to my setup and hope it works
correctly - makes things easier.

The other obvious approach is to just add another entry with partition(1)
to the boot.ini before you use PM. Then it should be happy to boot with
one entry bad in either config.

Ron Speed wrote:

"chrisv" wrote:

Either of you frickin retards ever considering trimming a post?

I dont deliberately to put a bomb under ****wits like you, chrissy.

So what's the deal with the switching back and forth between the "Ron
Reaugh" and "Rod Speed" monikers?

Hi Harvey,

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:06:54 UTC, Harvey Gratt wrote:

1. The MBR is read from a fixed location on the HDD.

2. The code in the MBR eventually points to a bootable partition
(there may be more than one, but I guess only one is active at a time)
and jumps to the PBS of the active partition.

3. Code in the PBS then starts to load the OS, eventually reading the
boot.ini file located in that partition's root directory (as you
indicated)

4. Now, if the boot.ini file contains lines for mutiple OS's, a menu
appears. A selection here would then cause a jump to the approriate
partition for the loading of the selected OS.

My head hurts. Does the above seem correct? If not, what does happen?

Thanks,
Harvey


Where is NTLDR? Which partition is that on?



Well, if my understanding is remotely correct, I would think it's
located on the active partition pointed to by the MBR. I guess the MBR
points to the PBS which contains code to start the loader function
(NTLDR). NTLDR is probably located on the active partition and it would
access the boot.ini file.

Your understanding is mostly correct.

The BOOT.INI will be in the first primary partition visible to Windows.

Often that IS the same partition Windows is installed in, but it doesn't
have to be that way. If you had another C: partition, with DOS or a
Win-9x installed, and add Windows-NT/W2K/XP, in another partition,
you can choose to keep the old installation intact, in that case it
will write its NTLDR and BOOT.INI i the existing C: partition, while
it installs the new Windows in another one (like D: or whatever).

(I guess this is noting to to most people on the NG though :-)


Unfortunately it is also true that the interpretation of the BOOT.INI
file is not very intelligent, the partition-numbers in there depend
on the other partitions present on the disk.

Changes like deleting other primaries, or all logicals, which will
remove the extended-partition (a special form of primary)
will cause the numbering to CHANGE, and requires
corresponding changes to the BOOT.INI file if you
want Windows to boot ...


If you know beforehand you will be rearrange things, you can
temporarilly add several lines to BOOT.INI each with a different
partition-number (and description).

That way you can always select a working one from the menu
you will get on booting. And with enough experience you can
reliably predict what the new partition-number will be :-).

If you are in a different situation, where the change has already
happened, you need to FIX the BOOT.INI file, either by editing
manually, using the Recovery Console (and FIXBOOT) or use
a third-party tool that knows how to fix it.

Editing might be problematic if the BOOT.INI file resides
in an NTFS partition ...


I know there are several third-party tools, both freeware and
commercial that will fix BOOT.INI as well. Fixing BOOT.INI
is also included in my own disk-utility DFSee, where it can
locate BOOT.INI of FAT16/32 or NTFS partitions and FIX
the entry for the default partition by automated in-line editing.

It will also display the correct BOOT.INI partition-number for every
primary partition on the disk (for educational purposes :-)

Feel free to download and evaluate it, no registration required
for evaluation. (and it is NOT crippled in any way either)

http://www.dfsee.com/dfsee.htm

Regards, JvW


PS:
The download contains a Windows, DOS, Linux and OS2 version
and is text-mode only ...

--
Jan van Wijk; Author of DFSee: http://www.dfsee.com

This is all very complicated, and PM will do unpredictable things.

You should make an XP boot floppy, so that when things get messed up,
maybe you will be able to boot to whatever partition PM eventually
numbers the boot partition.

I have had PM renumber the partitions without asking me. I had to boot
from the boot floppy, which contained a boot.ini file, and then the
hard disk boot.ini had to be fixed manually to finally work again.

I once copied by boot partition to a second primary partition, and PM
rewrote the boot.ini files on both to allow dual boot from both, again
without asking, which isn't what I wanted and I had to edit both files
to fix that.

You just don't know what it is going to do. And that doesn't include
when it just destroys everything, which has happened to me more than
once. A proper image of your boot drive is essential.

Irwin