help with motherboard choice

"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 11:38:49 +0100, S.Boardman wrote:


"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:08:02 +0100, S.Boardman wrote:

I want to upgrade my cpu to an XP2800+. I've double checked and found
that I
can't use my current board MSI KT3 Ultra.

You can most certainly run a 2800+ (or faster) on the board. you just
have
to know how.

Unfortunately, I'm not that technical, and didn't understand most of
what it
was going on about (assuming you're talking about the link given early
on
in the thread). When I got my current setup, I used the MSI overclocking
tool, but ending up reducing to just one step up (FSB 134? =1681Mhz
XP2000+) because it caused the machine to hang, and it was getting too
hot.
I've left it like that because the memory wasn't the best.
If it's simple, I'll give it a go :-)

Then your best choice would probably be a 2500+ (barton core).

Why? Just because it's the lowest Barton?

It has a
derfault 11 multiplier and your FSB should be set to 166Mhz. You will need
ram capable of PC2700 speeds to run in sync with the FSB.

I have PC2700 ram in now.

All said and
done, you should be able to run it at 12.5x166. There are many people
running Barton core AMD cpu's in KT333 chipset boards. No mods should be
required, but you need PC2700 capable ram and a 5:2:1 bus divisor (should
be setting in bios) to run a 166MHz FSB.

What's a bus divisor?

A Google groups search for kt3
2500+ will also get you info that KT3 board will run a 2500+ - 3000+
Barton.

So I could go ahead and get the 2800+ then?

If I get it, put it in, boot and then someone tell me what settings to put
it to get it to the correct speed, I'll be happy. If it's possible, why does
my MSI say it can't be done on this mboard? Seems silly to me.
--
Susan

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:06:31 GMT, "Wes Newell"
wrote:


Then your best choice would probably be a 2500+ (barton core). It has a
derfault 11 multiplier and your FSB should be set to 166Mhz. You will need
ram capable of PC2700 speeds to run in sync with the FSB. All said and
done, you should be able to run it at 12.5x166. There are many people
running Barton core AMD cpu's in KT333 chipset boards. No mods should be
required, but you need PC2700 capable ram and a 5:2:1 bus divisor (should
be setting in bios) to run a 166MHz FSB. A Google groups search for kt3
2500+ will also get you info that KT3 board will run a 2500+ - 3000+
Barton.

There usually isn't a 5:2 ratio setting for 166FSB in the bios, it's
typically an automatic function of setting the FSB to =160MHz.


Dave

"kony" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 11:56:43 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


"kony" wrote in message
.. .
snip!

At this point in time, trying to go "futureproof" on a socket A is an
attempt made in vain, there is no worthwhile upgrade course for that
motherboard after your currently-planned CPU. Eventually slighlty
faster CPUs will be more affordable, but will be much slower the the
other upgrade options at that time, and your memory isn't spec'd for
DDR400 either, so it'd also need replaced.

IMHO, the first thing you ought do is buy another PATA drive so you
can make backups of the current RAID.

Another RAID one or IDE? There's nothing on my primary IDE channel ATM. IDE
I understood, my brother decided that I needed RAID when I wasn't looking
:-(

Odds are it will not be
transferrible to the new SATA RAID controller, you will have to back
it up, create the new array, and copy to the new array.

On the current drives...?

I'd still try upgrading your present motherboard with the new CPU.
Do you mean upgrading the motherboard and the CPU as well?

The different between the old and new motherboard will be very little
performancewise, just running the old board at DDR333 will help, but
again it depends on whether your video card is happy, or if there's
some bios bug... could be tried with new CPU and then a new board
purchased if it didn't work properly.

But other people are saying I don't need to change the board with a new
Barton CPU, that my PC2700 ram will do fine. I have a nVidia GeForce 4MX
card (which I was thinking of upgrading when Half Life 2 or Doom 3 is out).
Won't I just be able to stick the new CPU in, find out what the new setting
should be, and hey presto?


I can't do anything with the HDs until I get a new hs/fan. I'm not
looking
forward to having to take the machine apart to put that in.

If your power supply has long enough leads, you might be able to
unscrew it at the back and sort-of hang it off to the side or prop it
up, then be able to access the heatsink clip to remove it and install
the new one. It's your call, it's a bit more difficult to do it that
way but certainly possible, it was how I usually did it before I made
that mangled-screwdriver tool I mentioned in a previous post. The
main thing is to take your time, be able to see what you're doing.


Okey-dokey.

Unless making a
XP2800+ work in my current m/board is easy, I'll get the XP2600+ which is
supposed to be the maximum it will take.

I don't have experience with that particular board, but in general a
KT333 board will run a CPU with 166MHz, DDR333 FSB. Basically it's
just a matter of leaving the FSB at 133MHz, installing the new CPU,
then going into the BIOS and upping the FSB speed (or by jumper,
whichever applies), AND making sure the memory is set to same,
synchronous speed, not "+33". Just now I researched your board and
saw reports of it working even with the Bartons... you might as well
max out the board with a Barton then. See he
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W16036346

Excellent :-) Seems easy enough. You'll hear me scream if I get stuck.


I also want to change the striping I've got now to mirroring, how do I do
that?

You can't really change it. You have to copy off the data, then
delete the array, change to mirroring, effectively erasing it, then on
your fresh/empty mirror, copy back the data. Once you set up a RAID 0
there's nothing that can or should be done to it, which is part of the
reason why they're such a PITA unless you have plenty of backup
storage too.


I currently have 2 x 20Gb identical drives, as far as I can see each
on a different channel. How do I change it to the other?
I think I'd need to get a three 40Gb drives. One to copy the current data
to, and set the other two up as mirrored, and copy the data back.

You'd only need two new drives for the array... copy the data from the
old drives to one of the new... Not moving it, just copy it.

Sorry for the thicko questions - it would have to be at least 40Gb, wouldn't
it? Assuming that there is more than 20Gb of data.

Now,
depending on the abilities of the RAID controller (and it's bios-code)

It's a Promise PDC20276.

you may be able to assign the new drive as one of a mirrored-set, and
choose to "rebuild" the array onto the second new drive, and you're
done. If you can't rebuild the array onto a second drive, or define
the array without wiping out the data, then you'd need to copy the
data again if necessary, making sure the new drive has the data
intact, and erase the old drives' array, then create a new array on
them as a span (if you want to reuse the present motherboard then
create a single volume spanning both old drives) or if you want a new
motherboard, create two single-drive spans, one on each drive. Either
way, you then have 40GB of space to copy back the data. Single-drive
spans are, AFAIK, transferrible to any other IDE controller the same
as if it weren't RAID-related at all, meaning it could be attached to
a new board's IDE port to copy the data to the larger drive array.

Lost again. Copy data (and partition? )onto first new drive. Add second new
drive onto the existing two drive array and tell it to mirror it on? Then
I'd have two striped and a mirror?
I didn't think you could have a single span over two drives in mirroring? I
thought the whole idea was to have two separate copies?
What about if I get two new 40 or 60Gb drives, copy the existing data from
the current array on to it. Delete current RAID setup and remove old drives.
Put in new drive with the copied data on it, and add the second new drive.
Then tell the Fastrak controller(?) to mirror it to the second drive. Would
that work? One question: when I initially copy the data, do I connect the
new drive to the master IDE channel or to the RAID array?
I want to be absolutely sure of what I'm doing since I don't have any
backup. Hence the need to move to mirroring (and at some point, get a DVD
backup solution in place).

Gees I wish you lived nextdoor! That would be handy :-)


Can I use the same drives for SATA RAID later, or are they special ones?

There's nothign special about SATA RAID, you just need the SATA
adapter another poster mentioned previously.

I
have seen SATA drives listed to buy seperately from ATA. If I can use
them
again, I might get 60Gb instead.

You need at least one PATA drive, to be able to copy off your data
from the array on your current motherboard, then to use that new PATA
drive on a SATA controller, you'll need an adapter. The second drive
could be SATA.

When partitioning mirrored drives, is it done both at the same time, or
each
one seperately? I use Partition Magic.

Once you have defined the drive-set as a mirror, that array is treated
as a single drive.

So they would be partitioned simultaneously. However, I'm hoping, using
Ghost I could just copy it over, partitions and all...?
--
Susan

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:34:03 +0100, "S.Boardman"
wrote:


IMHO, the first thing you ought do is buy another PATA drive so you
can make backups of the current RAID.

Another RAID one or IDE? There's nothing on my primary IDE channel ATM. IDE
I understood, my brother decided that I needed RAID when I wasn't looking
:-(

A drive is a drive, the same drive can be set up in a RAID array or as
a single drive, whether it be connected to the RAID controller or
another... The consideration here is simply that your current board
only supports PATA, not SATA.



Odds are it will not be
transferrible to the new SATA RAID controller, you will have to back
it up, create the new array, and copy to the new array.

On the current drives...?

Yes, the current drives... I mean that if you take the current RAID
array, connected SATA adapters to the drives and tried to retain the
data, use them on a new motherboard's SATA RAID controller, it most
likely wouldn't work, you would have to recreate the array on the new
motherboard and copy back the data.


I'd still try upgrading your present motherboard with the new CPU.
Do you mean upgrading the motherboard and the CPU as well?

I mean, upgrading only the CPU, not the motherboard, but still getting
another PATA HDD so you can make backups and move data around without
this problem of having the data "stuck" on the RAID 0 array.


The different between the old and new motherboard will be very little
performancewise, just running the old board at DDR333 will help, but
again it depends on whether your video card is happy, or if there's
some bios bug... could be tried with new CPU and then a new board
purchased if it didn't work properly.

But other people are saying I don't need to change the board with a new
Barton CPU, that my PC2700 ram will do fine. I have a nVidia GeForce 4MX
card (which I was thinking of upgrading when Half Life 2 or Doom 3 is out).
Won't I just be able to stick the new CPU in, find out what the new setting
should be, and hey presto?

Yes, according to reports from others, it is possible, likely to work.
Not having your motherboard in front of me with the Barton CPU plugged
into it, I can't guarantee anything, but that is what I would do, buy
the CPU and try it.

max out the board with a Barton then. See he
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W16036346

Excellent :-) Seems easy enough. You'll hear me scream if I get stuck.

It usually is easy, I have KT333 boards running CPUs at DDR333 FSB,
but the issue was one of whether the BIOS would be confused, not POST,
and apparently that's not an issue based on other's reports of
success.


You'd only need two new drives for the array... copy the data from the
old drives to one of the new... Not moving it, just copy it.

Sorry for the thicko questions - it would have to be at least 40Gb, wouldn't
it? Assuming that there is more than 20Gb of data.

Well it'd have to be the size of all data on the RAID array of course,
but considering the price/size ratio of today's drives, something in
the neighborhood of =60GB might be most cost-effective.


Now,
depending on the abilities of the RAID controller (and it's bios-code)

It's a Promise PDC20276.

Someone else may know, but I don't recall if that controller, and
whichever BIOS, allows creating a mirrored array with only one drive,
retaining the data. I do vaguely recall Promise has a Windows utility
that will dupe the data to the second drive.


you may be able to assign the new drive as one of a mirrored-set, and
choose to "rebuild" the array onto the second new drive, and you're
done. If you can't rebuild the array onto a second drive, or define
the array without wiping out the data, then you'd need to copy the
data again if necessary, making sure the new drive has the data
intact, and erase the old drives' array, then create a new array on
them as a span (if you want to reuse the present motherboard then
create a single volume spanning both old drives) or if you want a new
motherboard, create two single-drive spans, one on each drive. Either
way, you then have 40GB of space to copy back the data. Single-drive
spans are, AFAIK, transferrible to any other IDE controller the same
as if it weren't RAID-related at all, meaning it could be attached to
a new board's IDE port to copy the data to the larger drive array.

Lost again. Copy data (and partition? )onto first new drive. Add second new
drive onto the existing two drive array and tell it to mirror it on? Then
I'd have two striped and a mirror?
I didn't think you could have a single span over two drives in mirroring? I
thought the whole idea was to have two separate copies?

You wouldn't have a span for mirroring, it's just a temporary measure
to hold the data, juggle it between the drives, so you have the RAID 0
array's data first copied to the new drive, then those drives in the
RAID 0 array are to be reconfigured to store the data, freeing up the
new drive to be part of the new RAID array. At this point it's
important to know exactly what you want to do, not only with the new
drives, but the motherboard. Once you have those parts it'll be
easier to describe the process specific to your situation.

In other words, rigth now to copy off the data you need a minimum of a
drive large enough to hold all the data currently stored on the RAID 0
array. If you wanted this new drive to be part of a new mirrored
array, instead of reusing the old drives for a mirrored array (which
of course would only be 20GB large), then buy a second new drive of
same capacity as the first new drive. At least one of the new drives
needs be PATA. The other can be SATA IF you're getting the new
motherbord, or PATA if not.

What about if I get two new 40 or 60Gb drives, copy the existing data from
the current array on to it. Delete current RAID setup and remove old drives.
Put in new drive with the copied data on it, and add the second new drive.
Then tell the Fastrak controller(?) to mirror it to the second drive. Would
that work?

That is what I was attempting to describe before, but I dont' know if
your controller will accept the single drive being defined as a
mirrored set, without losing the data.

If you get two new drives, both PATA, you don't have to do any of
this, it is much easier. Install both new drives on the RAID
controller (doesn't really matter where for the time being, any
channel and position), then define the new drives as the mirrored RAID
1 array, partition and format, then copy the data from the RAID 0
array to this new RAID 1 array. That's all, you have the new array
with the data, can unplug the old drives and boot up, verify that it
works and you have all data, then do whatever you want with the old
drives.

One question: when I initially copy the data, do I connect the
new drive to the master IDE channel or to the RAID array?

You could attach the drive to either the motherboard's integrated IDE
or the RAID controller.

I want to be absolutely sure of what I'm doing since I don't have any
backup. Hence the need to move to mirroring (and at some point, get a DVD
backup solution in place).

The key is to verify that you have ALL data copied over, that the new
copy works to run the system, before changing anything relating to
the source of the data from the copy operation. If you buy two new
drives, each in itself large enough to hold all the data on the
currently existing array (which we'll call 40GB of data), then as I
mentioned above, you can create the new mirrored array with these new
drives and only copy over the data once. Then you can unplug the old
drives and still have two copies of the data.

Just be sure that when configuring the new drives as a mirror in the
RAID setup screen, that you do not change any settings of the
already-existing RAID array. No settings relating to the current RAID
0 array should be changed till you have a working copy on the new
drives.


Once you have defined the drive-set as a mirror, that array is treated
as a single drive.

So they would be partitioned simultaneously. However, I'm hoping, using
Ghost I could just copy it over, partitions and all...?

I don't know. I think Ghost can copy TO the new mirrored array fine,
but I'm unsure if it can read from the RAID 0 array, might need a
driver loaded but I'm only guessing.


Dave

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:56:18 +0000, kony wrote:

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:06:31 GMT, "Wes Newell"
wrote:


Then your best choice would probably be a 2500+ (barton core). It has a
derfault 11 multiplier and your FSB should be set to 166Mhz. You will need
ram capable of PC2700 speeds to run in sync with the FSB. All said and
done, you should be able to run it at 12.5x166. There are many people
running Barton core AMD cpu's in KT333 chipset boards. No mods should be
required, but you need PC2700 capable ram and a 5:2:1 bus divisor (should
be setting in bios) to run a 166MHz FSB. A Google groups search for kt3
2500+ will also get you info that KT3 board will run a 2500+ - 3000+
Barton.

There usually isn't a 5:2 ratio setting for 166FSB in the bios, it's
typically an automatic function of setting the FSB to =160MHz.

On the contrary, most of the KT333 chipset boards I've seen do have bios
settings for the this. There may be some that don't though and I'm not
sure about the MSI board since I didn't dl the manual for it.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.html

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:50:07 +0100, S.Boardman wrote:


"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 11:38:49 +0100, S.Boardman wrote:

I've left it like that because the memory wasn't the best.
If it's simple, I'll give it a go :-)

Then your best choice would probably be a 2500+ (barton core).

Why? Just because it's the lowest Barton?

Basically, yes.

All said and
done, you should be able to run it at 12.5x166. There are many people
running Barton core AMD cpu's in KT333 chipset boards. No mods should be
required, but you need PC2700 capable ram and a 5:2:1 bus divisor (should
be setting in bios) to run a 166MHz FSB.

What's a bus divisor?

it divides the FSB clock for the PCI, AGP, and memory buses. 5:2:1 means
fsb/5=PCI bus speed, 2xPCI bus=AGP bus speed, and FSB/1=memory bus speed.

A Google groups search for kt3
2500+ will also get you info that KT3 board will run a 2500+ - 3000+
Barton.

So I could go ahead and get the 2800+ then?

Yes, if you want to pay more money for the same core as the 2500+. Your
choice.

If I get it, put it in, boot and then someone tell me what settings to put
it to get it to the correct speed, I'll be happy. If it's possible, why does
my MSI say it can't be done on this mboard? Seems silly to me.

I' don't know. Why does Abit say you can't run anything but tbirds and
Durons in the board below?:-)
One reason may be that the KT333 chipset doesn't have official support for
a 166MHz FSB. Or they just may not want to support the name string of the
newer cpu's in the bios.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.html

OK. I go away on Wednesday for a week. When I get back I will get the
XP2800+, the SilentBoost heatsink/fan, and two 40GB PATA hard drives. I'll
keep the existing motherboard.
I'll do the processor first and make sure it's OK. I'll try and copy the
info from the hard drives over without using Ghost, especially as it's not
the most current version.
The northbridge fan seems to be behaving itself at the moment, so work on
that is currently suspended.

Isn't it a good thing that I have another computer to access the internet?

Thanks again. You have the patience of a saint!
--
Susan

"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:50:07 +0100, S.Boardman wrote:

So I could go ahead and get the 2800+ then?

Yes, if you want to pay more money for the same core as the 2500+. Your
choice.

It will run at the same speed? What's the point of having different speed
branded chips? Are the chips exactly the same, only some are set to run
faster than others, something that could be set on the motherboard if you
know what you're doing? Why does anyone ever buy anything less than the
minimum (2500+ in this case)? I guess this is why the motherboard is more
important... So *that's* the draw of overclocking. How fast can I make it
go then? The only thing is I don't really know what I'm doing when it comes
to timings and multipliers :-(
I might just get a 2500+ when I get back then. Good thing I'm getting a
better heatsink and fan!
--
Susan

"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:56:18 +0000, kony wrote:

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:06:31 GMT, "Wes Newell"
wrote:


Then your best choice would probably be a 2500+ (barton core). It has a
derfault 11 multiplier and your FSB should be set to 166Mhz. You will
need
ram capable of PC2700 speeds to run in sync with the FSB. All said and
done, you should be able to run it at 12.5x166. There are many people
running Barton core AMD cpu's in KT333 chipset boards. No mods should be
required, but you need PC2700 capable ram and a 5:2:1 bus divisor
(should
be setting in bios) to run a 166MHz FSB. A Google groups search for kt3
2500+ will also get you info that KT3 board will run a 2500+ - 3000+
Barton.

There usually isn't a 5:2 ratio setting for 166FSB in the bios, it's
typically an automatic function of setting the FSB to =160MHz.

On the contrary, most of the KT333 chipset boards I've seen do have bios
settings for the this. There may be some that don't though and I'm not
sure about the MSI board since I didn't dl the manual for it.

I have the manual. What is it exactly you want?
Mainboard spec
Chipset VIA KT333
-FSB @200/266/333MHz
Clock Generator
-100/133/166MHz clocks are supported

Is that any help?
--
Susan (Just found the RAID manual :-) )

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:05:22 +0100, S.Boardman wrote:


"Wes Newell" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:50:07 +0100, S.Boardman wrote:

So I could go ahead and get the 2800+ then?

Yes, if you want to pay more money for the same core as the 2500+. Your
choice.

It will run at the same speed?

It's not garuanteed too, but I don't thnik there's one that won't.

What's the point of having different speed branded chips?

To make more money on the faster rated ones.:-)

Are the chips exactly the same, only some are set to run
faster than others, something that could be set on the motherboard if you
know what you're doing?

You nailed it, sort of. The core is the same. The bridges that define the
default multiplier is the difference, and of course the PN label.

Why does anyone ever buy anything less than the
minimum (2500+ in this case)?

Because most people don't know what they are buying.

I guess this is why the motherboard is more
important... So *that's* the draw of overclocking. How fast can I make it
go then?

Actually, you can do the same thing with a MB that doesn't support
multiplier changing. you can just change the bridges on the cpu. See link
in sig line.

The only thing is I don't really know what I'm doing when it comes
to timings and multipliers :-(
I might just get a 2500+ when I get back then. Good thing I'm getting a
better heatsink and fan!

A decent cooler is very important, and it doesn't have to be an expensive
one to be up to the task. You can get a good one for under $20, even under
$10 will work. Just takes a little research. My most expensive one cost
$19. The cheapest, $8. Any of them will work with a cpu at 3200+ speeds.
The 2500+ has a default multiplier of 11. Just change it to 12.5 for a
2800+. Everything else is the same.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.html