Difficult to Print Images - Ever Ran Into This? (warning: Long Vent-Post)

My guess is that you ran afoul of the anti-counterfeiting software.
I went through 3 printers once with HP. They would not print on yellow
paper, while our older one worked just fine. After many many long phone
calls I finally got to someone in Colorado that stated that it won't
print on yellow paper because of counterfeiting issues....(whose money
is yellow anyway?). Anyhow, it would have been nice if they mentioned
this ANYWHERE. We got a full refund...and they even screwed that up by
sending us TWO full refunds!

I'm sure the folks at HP tested this feature thoroughly however, what
they missed was that it only would refuse to print on the FIRST page; it
worked fine on all subsequent pages. The guy at HP was very surprised
at this.

We also have some pages that refuse to print on other printers....it
seems to be related to the contests, just like you saw. It would be
nice if they would just put up a message that says "Uncle Sam will not
let you print this page!"

cv

Frustrated For Two Days wrote:

I just thought of something, could that stupid anti-counterfeit programming
be causing this? That a rare photo at times will trigger that somewhere in
the editor or printer driver software? It's a head-scratcher for sure. But
I won't be surprised next year when it happens again. Maybe it's just
Mother Nature, she doesn't want anyone showing views of her just as she's
getting out of bed (as magnificent as that might be). It's almost like
these photos have a built-in printer curse or something.

"Caesar Valenti" wrote in message
:

My guess is that you ran afoul of the anti-counterfeiting software.
I went through 3 printers once with HP. They would not print on yellow
paper, while our older one worked just fine.

I'm sure the folks at HP tested this feature thoroughly however, what
they missed was that it only would refuse to print on the FIRST page; it
worked fine on all subsequent pages. The guy at HP was very surprised
at this.

If this was a recent higher-end HP inkjet I do not think this was due to
an anti-counterfeiting measure, it is more likely that the printer you
had has an automatic paper sensor and was confused by the yellow paper.
The paper type scan only happens on the first page of a print job.
Setting the paper type manually (such as "Plain Paper") rather than
automatic would likely have resolved the problem.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

Hi Frustrated...,

I enjoyed your rant. I think we all get to a point at times, with any
technology, to try to give it powers and abilities to explain the
seemingly unexplainable.

Let me try to address a few of the issues you brought up.

All hard copy color rendering technologies have to deal with certain
physical limitations. As I am sure you are aware, in spite of the
supposed color bit depth both our digital cameras and printers claim to
have, that gamut is not pure in its geometry. There are areas of
weakness within the transitions which are difficult to reproduce.

It would be somewhat helpful to know about the technology you are using.
For instance, a four color (CMYK) inkjet system has less ability to
accurately reproduce certain colors and combinations, than does one
which may have photo C and M, plus a green, red and blue cartridges, for
instance. Keep in mind that no matter how many ink colors are available
within the printer, they represent a very small portion of the total
created color range in a photo. All others are created by patterns of
colored dots in differing percentages.

As you probably know, hexachrome printers often contain a green and
orange cartridge, simply because certain greens and oranges are
difficult to reproduce using yellow and cyans or yellows and magentas.

The next issue is what type of inks you are using; dye ink versus
pigment, for instance. Dye inks have a wider color gamut in general.
Pigment inks also can add something called metamorism, which is when
different viewing light sources changes the relationship between certain
colors. This is due in part to how the dots are laid down and cause
interference and reflection to one another.

The fact that the difficulties you encounter occur in the exact same
location regardless of the aspect you print at, says to me the problem
is not mechanical, such as a printer defect, or a random factor like
certain nozzles clogging. It could be a defect in the CLUT from the
driver and profile.

So then the question is where are you getting the profiles you use, and
are you using OEM inks and papers, or third party or one or both? If
you are using the canned profiles that came with the printer, which can
be quite good with some more recent models, but using a 3rd party paper
or ink set that can lead to some weaknesses in rendition of the full gamut.

A question that also comes to mind is what is your source, and how are
those files processed. What is the bit depth of the original capture and
is it in Raw and converted or is it a Jpeg within camera?

If Raw what process is being used to convert it and what software?

Any information about your source and workflow would help to isolate
where the problem may occur.

Just to clear something up, memory isn't an issue, either within the
printer, or externally, in terms of hard drive spooler space. Inkjet
printers are basically line printers and only need to have a small
amount of memory, enough to print a few lines, since, unlike laser
printers, the image is rasterized during the spooling process and fed to
the printer little by little. Most inkjet printers only have 64kb to
128kb internally.

As to any anti-counterfeiting technology, which it is true that some
devices have this built in, particularly scanners and programs like
Photoshop, the patterns which triggers this, is based upon a series of
seemingly random dots of specific colors which have a repeated pattern.
The likelihood of your nature image replicating that pattern is small,
although I suppose if the trigger isn't properly programmed within a
printer it could conceivably set it off.

If you can provide some more details, and if you wish, if you could send
me a small sample of the problem area as a scan so I can see the issue
via email, I may be able to ascertain the cause. If you wish to do that
please keep the scan below 3 megs, and send it as an attachment to:

e-printerhelp(at)mvps(dot)org

(at) = @
(dot) = .

Art

If you are interested in issues surrounding e-waste,
I invite you to enter the discussion at my blog:

http://e-trashtalk.spaces.live.com/

Frustrated For Two Days wrote:
First off I'm an accomplished wildlife photographer. I almost always know
exactly what I should be doing to capture an image right and printed right.
Not too rarely my photography style entails taking images that are shrouded
in mists rising from swamps, lakes, and streams in places where nobody's
ever been before; the slowly rising and mystic looking fog that weeps out
of the branches of evergreens on the sides of mountains early in the
morning (which, I've sadly found, no still-image can capture adequately);
or the subtle shades of skies and reflections on waters or dew and frost
covered foliage. Attempting to capture nature as it truly is, conveying
nature's solitude, beauty, and power in composition and print.

I can print off some 1000 unique 11x17 or 8x10 photos with no problem on
most of my printers. But then, very rarely, one comes along that's a
royal-bitch to print properly.

I don't know what it is, but it seems to entail misty scenes taken before
sunrise or just after sunset, at least this is the case in the two images I
ran into this year. Where those particular subtle pastel shades of magentas
and blues fill the sky and then internally light the misty air. A print
will crank-out just fine, then BAM! Halfway through the printout it goes
bonkers. It might shut down just one color and decide not to use it for the
rest of the print. Happening again in the exact same spot on the print no
matter how many times I try. Or even more oddly, it will re-engage that one
ink after it's gotten well past the difficult passage. Or the greens will
get blown-out throughout. Or just trying to color-balance the whole image
overall is a nightmare of tweaking to get it to look like it should on
paper. Something in one spot or sequence of data being sent to the printer
seems to be beyond the printer's capability and understanding or something.

I've just spent two days trying to get one of those stubborn photos to
print, this is the worst one to date with this problem, using two different
printers and a whole slew of settings. Cleaning print-heads, replacing
inks, over 75 sheets of paper testing things. Then finally, just a few
moments ago, I got it to print by turning off all manual printer
adjustments on my best printer and putting the printer drivers on full-auto
(which I detest doing). Compensating for the printer's auto-crap decisions
by tweaking the image's color-shifts in the editor to get it to look right
on print, while looking awful on screen.

Any of you ever run into this problem? It seems to be caused by very subtle
shades of mid-tone magentas and blues where the problem crops up. I have
two images from this year that I know for certain will cause a printer to
start acting up. One image doing this worse than the other. In testing I've
even flipped the images 180-degrees to watch the problem start happening at
the very same location in the photo, nearer one border than the other, now
being printed from the other direction. Both of these problem photos are
misty scenes over streams; one in the autumn with subtle tree colors
bleeding through the before-sunrise mist, another a fog shrouded hoar-frost
on evergreens and grasses beside a mountain-stream fed by geothermal vents
(also before sunrise). So this is what I think what causes it, the combo of
subtle shades and hues (that without would cause for a snore-fest photo),
they just overwhelm the printer or drivers on knowing what to do with those
more complex data-streams. They sure are a challenge for any printer that
I've fed them to.

Printers are just not supposed to do this! I photo is a photo! A printer is
a printer! If it can print 1000 various photos with no problem, why does
just one come along to make my printers go haywire? I don't get it. The
first time this happened it even caused me to give up on that printer and
buy another brand. Now it happened again on a different brand with a
different photo.

I mostly just needed to vent. But then it got me to wonder if anyone else
ever ran into this. I'm now convinced that the next time this happens it's
not the printers nor the inks, it's the photo itself that is causing this.

I just thought of something, could that stupid anti-counterfeit programming
be causing this? That a rare photo at times will trigger that somewhere in
the editor or printer driver software? It's a head-scratcher for sure. But
I won't be surprised next year when it happens again. Maybe it's just
Mother Nature, she doesn't want anyone showing views of her just as she's
getting out of bed (as magnificent as that might be). It's almost like
these photos have a built-in printer curse or something.

Ah, I feel better now. Both for venting, and for finally getting that photo
to print. It was one of my favorites and I hesitated to print it until now,
it needed to be done right if printed so I waited until I got used to this
newer printer. Little did I know it was going to be this much effort to get
it looking right on paper.

Dear Frustrated,

OK, fair enough. You did state it was a vent/rant, but you also set up
a type of challenge and seemed to be seeking some resolution. However
now it appears, you are either convinced it "can't be fixed, is fixed by
some random event or luck, and that you know enough about every aspect
of your printing system, source, software, inks, papers, printers, and
drivers and profiles that it can't possibly be something which is
traceable or correctable with a broad rule.

You may very well be correct, but who will ever know? For instance, you
mention that this image is taken from a jpeg compressed source. That in
itself, may be significant. The jpeg compression process is not without
"flaws". How a jpeg gets made into one can be significant, in terms of
the software and processing used.

I mean, it is all well and good that you are content without delving
deeper, and perhaps there isn't an satisfactory "answer" but for a
confluence of events that develops this fluke, but how is one to ever know?

You asked has anyone ever encountered an image that can't be reproduced
properly due to certain color relationships, well, sure, to some extent.
You don't really indicate the nature of the print artifacts you see
nor "how much" the image is off, nor how you compare the original source
to the print, so the whole question is difficult to quantify.

Lastly, paper types and ink can make quite a difference in how an image
prints. Simply put certain combinations of inks and papers will never
allow for certain specific color relationships due to dot gain, or color
shifts.

Anyway, it can certainly be left as basically a rhetorical question, and
luckily, it only seems to occur for you every year or two. Maybe it is
just there to remind you that no systems are without variation beyond
what is logically expected of them. I suppose it keeps things interesting.

Art




If you are interested in issues surrounding e-waste,
I invite you to enter the discussion at my blog:

http://e-trashtalk.spaces.live.com/

Frustrated For Two Days wrote:
On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:09:22 -0400, wrote:

You leave out the most important parts if you wish anyone to make a real
attempt at helping you.


I wasn't looking for help. I only posted what happened to see if it's ever
happened or happens to anyone else (and to vent, the most important reason
for posting). If all your images print fine for months and months or years,
then just one image makes your printer go haywire on how it's spitting out
the inks. Then all's fine again on all other images. If that sounds
familiar then it's happened to you too.

All your questions are rather inconsequential because everyone uses
different OS's, editors, profiles, printers, etc. I'm always running other
odd's&end's software in the background. No two situations alike really, for
myself nor anyone else. People are just guessing at what might have caused
it on my end, same as I have been doing for the last 2 days. Same as you
would do too even if you had all the "hard data" information that you asked
for.

Situation resolved (for now), until I run into one of those images that
does it again. Then I'll try again what worked to fix it this last time. No
longer suspecting the printer, inks, or software, or going out to buy
another printer and cursing the last one's maker, cutting out the 1 or 2
days worth of frustration. Might not happen again for another 2 years, who
knows. For the "memory problem" solution-people, so they don't have to go
on pondering that, this last particular photo that causes the problem is
only 6.22 megs in size, printed from a JPG file. That's piddly compared to
other files I've ran through my system.

The only thing that really seems to be the constant in my situation is the
type of subject matter of the images itself when it has happened.
Before/after sunrise/set (very low-key and muted pastels)
foggy/mist-shrouded foliage. No other types of photos have ever had (or
caused?) this printing problem.

Thanks anyway.

I'll check back occasionally to see if anyone else has reported this
weirdly intermittent and rare hair-puller.

I'm guessing here, because i don't own any HP inkjet printers, but HP
uses a blue LED as a light source for their print alignment system using
yellow and black ink. The blue led makes the yellow ink appear gray.
If they use this same lights source for some other purpose, like reading
the width of the paper, or to check for paper movement, or some other
feature, the yellow paper would become darker gray which may trick the
sensor into not being able to read it.

I think much too much is being made of this anti-counterfeiting
technology. I know it exists on some peripherals, but it seems to be
fairly specific in what it determines to be attempts to reproduce
currency. By the way, if you look at those currencies who are using
this technology, you will see the pattern that triggers the process by
looking at the bill's background color. There are a series small yellow
numbers (corresponding to the denomination of the bill) in what appears
to be a random pattern.

Art


If you are interested in issues surrounding e-waste,
I invite you to enter the discussion at my blog:

http://e-trashtalk.spaces.live.com/

Caesar Valenti wrote:
My guess is that you ran afoul of the anti-counterfeiting software. I
went through 3 printers once with HP. They would not print on yellow
paper, while our older one worked just fine. After many many long phone
calls I finally got to someone in Colorado that stated that it won't
print on yellow paper because of counterfeiting issues....(whose money
is yellow anyway?). Anyhow, it would have been nice if they mentioned
this ANYWHERE. We got a full refund...and they even screwed that up by
sending us TWO full refunds!

I'm sure the folks at HP tested this feature thoroughly however, what
they missed was that it only would refuse to print on the FIRST page; it
worked fine on all subsequent pages. The guy at HP was very surprised
at this.

We also have some pages that refuse to print on other printers....it
seems to be related to the contests, just like you saw. It would be
nice if they would just put up a message that says "Uncle Sam will not
let you print this page!"

cv

Frustrated For Two Days wrote:

I just thought of something, could that stupid anti-counterfeit
programming
be causing this? That a rare photo at times will trigger that
somewhere in
the editor or printer driver software? It's a head-scratcher for sure.
But
I won't be surprised next year when it happens again. Maybe it's just
Mother Nature, she doesn't want anyone showing views of her just as she's
getting out of bed (as magnificent as that might be). It's almost like
these photos have a built-in printer curse or something.