Norm X wrote:
[snippage]
Thanks Paul. The link to article you gave was useful. A nice man at a
repair shop gave me a short Molex to six pin GPU power adapter cable. I
gave him RAM I could not sell. I was confused a bit by an 8 pin connector
that could be split into two identical four pin connectors on the new
Amazon Coolmax PSU. I left the old Dynex PSU with the shop for
refurbishing. That may have been premature. I used scotch tape to
identify all the power connectors I used. The wire colors tell what is
correct. Either I get a call from the shop to tell me all is A OK, or I
can study the article you gave to satisfy my concern. I don't want to
power up unless everything is electrically correct.
If you use the short Molex to six pin GPU, note that the Molex connector
has enough ampacity to do the job, but then there's nothing left over
for hard drives. For example, doing this would be marginal, from the
HDD-requirements point of view. The GPU on the video card will likely
tolerate the tolerances on the 12V rail if done like this.
PSU
|
+--- HDD 1.5A
|
+--- HDD 1.5A
|
|
+--- adapter --- PCIe 12V @ 6A for 75W video card
What can happen if you do that, is the HDD may "spin-down" in
mid-session, because the voltage on the cable drops to around 11V
instead of 12V. The HDD is doing an "emergency shutdown", as it thinks
the PSU is about to turn off the power.
If using the adapter, you might do this. Now, if the cable voltage
drops to 11V because of ohms law, the video card won't shut off.
PSU
|
+---
|
+---
|
|
+--- adapter --- PCIe 12V @ 6A for 75W video card
Some of those adapters, come with two Molex. And they're intended
to be used like this. You connect each molex to a different chain,
in an attempt to spread the load, so the wires from the PSU work in
parallel and the voltage drop is slightly less.
PSU ---------------+
| |
+--- ---+
| |
+--- ---+
| |
| |
+---X X---+
\ /
+--+--+
|
PCIe 2x3 12V @ 6A
On a modern desktop PSU, the two wire looms in question
are likely off the same output, so you're not putting
outputs in parallel.
*******
The 2x4 that splits into two 2x2 is for ATX12V by the processor socket.
Traditionally, a Pentium 4 motherboard back in the day, had a 2x2
with two yellow wires and two black wires. The connector was keyed
by the shape of the nylon shroud around each pin. The motherboard
manual, on the good ones, would even show which pins where
+12V (yellow) and which were ground (black).
Later, there were several standards for server processor connectors
using 2x4 pins instead. Those don't split. And those are not
compatible with desktops either. Fortunately, you don't run into
those too often when buying desktop power supplies.
Enthusiast motherboards need more than 144W. Or 12V @ 12A on the 2x2
ATX12V. To solve that need, they combined more yellow and black wires.
By using a 2x4 with four yellow and four black, they get room
for 12V @ 24A to flow, or 288W. There are still some overclocking
experiments that draw more power than that (D-805 at 4GHz), but then
you'd probably be melting the motherboard when doing that anyway :-)
There is a 2x4 that splits into a 2x3 and a 2x1. That's PCI Express
and solving both 2x4 and 2x3 input requirements. One of the pins
involved there is a "sense" pin rather than a "current flow" pin,
and tells the video card a proper 2x4 PCIe power was plugged in.
You should have been able to see those on Playtool.
This is the ATX12V that splits in two pieces for usage with
legacy motherboards (near the CPU socket).
http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...plus4index.jpg
Whereas this is the PCI Express that does 2x3 or 2x4 PCIe power.
http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...plus2index.jpg
The shroud on the connector, is intended to prevent inappropriate
combinations. On the ATX12V that splits in half, one half has
the "right" shape for the 2x2 on an old motherboard. The second
half is the extension portion, and is the "wrong" shape to fit
a 2x2 on its own. This is purely arbitrary - what matters is
that no yellow wires on the PSU end, touch pins intended for ground,
and that causes a short and causes the PSU to shut off (if you're lucky).
This is a picture I drew previously. The drawing shows the shapes
in the plastic ends of the connectors involved for ATX12V.
ATX12V 4/8
TTTTTT TTTTTT End view of connector pair
___ ___ ___ ___ showing shapes which help
| | | | | | | | control mating only one way.
| | | | | | | |
\_/ --- \_/ \_/ You will be using the *left*
connector in pic.
___ ___ ___ ___ The right connector is used if
| | | | | | | | the motherboard had a 2x4 and room
| | | | | | | | for all eight pins.
--- \_/ \_/ \_/
TTTTTT is the tab which latches to
|| a feature on the side of the
connector
\||/ on the motherboard and provides a
\/ visual cue on how to do it.
___ ___
| | | | Normal motherboards have just 2x2 [144 watt]
| | | | and have a tab for the latch on the
\_/ --- PSU end to attach to. The right-hand
___ ___ one above would not insert unless you
| | | | had an enthusiast 2x4 on the motherboard
| | | | with it's (approximate) 288W rating
--- \_/
HTH,
Paul
Thanks again Paul,
I don't have any more HDDs just SATA SSSDs. I ran the folding@home app for
several days. the GPU monitor app said it reached 71 C. My CPU temperature
app never went above 50 C.
I will study this new information at length.
For now I have a new question. The shop that took the old 400W Dynex PSU
will likely refurbish it. I suggested that the capacitors should to be
renewed. In my MCP73VE motherboard there are many electrolytic parallel
capacitors. C=C1+C2+ ... +Cn etc. So maybe voltage ripple also comes from
the motherboard. It was new in 2008, which leads me to consider I may need a
new MOBO that will allow me to use my LGA775 Q9650 CPU and my 8GB of DDR2
RAM. Where there is a need, a market will follow.
I found this on eBay, at
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/P45-Motherbo...N R:rk:1:pf:0
P45 Motherboard Intel LGA 775 4*SATA III USB 2.0 support DDR2 4*8GB 1600Mhz
M2O6
With four DDR2 RAM slots it supports up to 32GB memory. I can use my Q9650
CPU (TDI 95W). I can use SATA III SSDs. It has USB 2.0, fine by me. But I'm
not sure of PCI or PCIe slots. He
https://www.ascendtech.us/mmASC/Images/SAK09-01.jpg
You can see an image of my old MCP73VE MOBO. It has 2 PCI slots. At the end
I have a phone/modem/fax board. Maybe I don't need it. There are two PCIe
slots one for 1X lanes and one I use for a 16X lane GPU board. In the future
I might use the 1X lane PCIe, as I have in the past. The GPU board over laps
one PCI slaot which I cannot use.
Do you think this would be a good buy?
Thanks.
I see a little creative mis-labeling has driven you into a frenzy :-)
These Ebay sellers are pros at this stuff. No, it's not SATA III.
The only legend on the board is P45G41 in one corner. There is
no manufacturer listed. It could be a legendary PcChips. It's
more likely to be a grey market Chinese motherboard.
Now, right away, we have to trust what is under the Northbridge
heatsink is actually a P45. Those chip labels are both chips from
the same era, the first being more valuable than the second.
The G41 is used on budget boards (perfect for sheering sheep in fact).
The P45 is described here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_P45
1333/1066/800 MT/s front-side bus (FSB),
most motherboard manufacturers claim support up to 1600 MT/s.
PCI Express Rev2.0, 1*16 or 2*8 500MB/sec per lane, video slot only
Dual-channel DDR2 memory
up to 16 GiB addressable memory;
officially up to DDR2-800,
most motherboard manufacturers claim support up to 1200 MHz
Dual-channel DDR3 memory
up to 8 GiB addressable memory;
officially up DDR3-1066 MHz,
most motherboard manufacturers claim support up to 1333 MHz
ICH10 / ICH10R southbridge (250MB/sec PCIe Rev1.1 x1 lanes hosting)
Supports 45 nm processors
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us...3-mhz-fsb.html
Bus Speed 1333MHz FSB
TDP 95W
We look up the chips that could go with these solutions and
they're totally SATA II.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I/O_Controller_Hub
ICH10 Six SATA 3Gbit/s [SATA II] ports
in either legacy IDE or AHCI mode. Can support external eSATA
ICH10R (similar)
That board has four SATA ports off the four port block, equipped.
The two port block is not connected to anything.
A board with a VGA connector on the I/O plate, only makes sense
if a G41 Northbridge is being used (the G41 would have a GPU
inside the Northbridge). The G41 is also paired with ICH7
(only 4 SATA II ports). PDF page 26. A G41 supports one DIMM
per channel, two DIMMs per motherboard. If CS signals are split,
then four slots can be filled... with single-sided memory (no net
gain in max-memory). A double-sided DIMM would be "half used".
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/ww...-datasheet.pdf
The board has three phase power for the processor. I would need
to track down a comparable motherboard of that era, and see using
the CPU-Support chart, whether a three phase typically supported
95W processors, or was limited to 65W processors. This is another
reason why we need a company name and a web site, to verify details.
I expect it probably does work with a Q9650, but no matter how
much that motherboard costs, I want to know this in advance, and
not via "experiment" and "smoke test". You don't want to damage
a Q9650 on a dare.
I know it's tempting, but it's only SATA II. If they'd put any other
kind of labeling on the motherboard but "P45G41", I might have even
fallen for it. But that's an immediate warning sign - "sheep shearing ahead".
Imagine how ****ed you'd be, if the DIMM slots were actually wired
so they only accessed one side of your double sided DIMMs.
The max memory is 16GB, as maybe 4x4GB. That's for DDR2. For
DDR3, the limit is 8GB total. The chip density support is listed
in the datasheet.
"Supports 512-Mb, 1-Gb, 2-Gb DDR2 and
512-Mb, 1-Gb DDR3 DRAM technologies
for x8 and x16 chip types."
The DDR3 stick with 16 chips, would be 2GB total on a stick.
Four of those sticks gives 8GB DDR3 total. You don't own
any DDR3 now, so this is not an issue for you, whereas
reusing your purchased DDR2 is the issue. I got myself
into the same situation, when buying the motherboard I'm
typing this on.
The first SATA III ports were on P67 PCH. And PCH means
there is no Northbridge, only a Southbridge. This is the
era where memory is hosted by an interface on the CPU itself.
The P67 (being 2 SATA III and 4 SATA II) was a disaster and
was recalled... because some transistors were put in upside-down
in the SATA III PHY. The boards had to be recalled, and the PCH
replaced with a different silicon rev. As it was suspected the
SATA III ports would eventually blow out. That's how Intel
entered the "SATA III era", with a "bang".
In the case of the P45/ICH10, the memory is hosted by the
P45, since an LGA775 doesn't have the pins for dual channel
memory right on the CPU. On the LGA1156, there are enough
signals to put memory on the CPU. An LGA775 will only work
with a limited set of chipsets, and would need a NB-SB
pair. The NB having the memory DIMM interfaces on it.
If you want SATA III, you can use a plugin card... which
will cost as much as the motherboard you're angling for.
You have to be careful when buying those - there is a
Marvell SATA III early chip, that only did 300MB/sec
instead of full SATA III. You should in that case, read
reviews and verify the card works good. You could
also benefit from a PCIe x4 slot for the card, as the
chipset you've got is PCIe Rev2 on video slots, and
PCIe Rev1 on SB-hosted PCIe lanes. My X48 has two PCIe x16
slots of the Rev2 variety, and this limits my SATA III
and USB3 speeds. To counter that, I bought a USB3 Rev2 card
with x2 lanes, and when that's plugged into my X48
motherboard, it has 1GB/sec of slot bandwidth, leaving
plenty of room for full USB3 Rev1 500MB/sec action. (If
I ran it with a Rev2 device, again, there would be no headroom
for it and it would maybe run 700MB/sec instead of
1GB/sec.) In any case, if you were to buy an X48, one
video slot goes to the video card, and the second slot
is handy for "super fast toys" of various sorts.
So while the Q9650 is a nice processor (I wouldn't mind
owning one), the rest of the chipset part of it is
"plonkerific". The X48 makes me feel a bit better,
but it's nothing to brag about. It's still a bit
stinky for benchmarking. No SSDs on this machine... :-)
Not unless I plug in the Asmedia card (and on those,
you have to shop carefully to get the right chip
on the card - there is more sheep sheering involved
with the purchase of those cards too).
If you can live with SATA II, then "buy it".
Paul