In article ,
Fa-groon wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 16:22:37 -0800, ZnU wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Fa-groon wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 13:35:39 -0800, ZnU wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Fa-groon wrote:

On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:25:34 -0800, ZnU wrote
(in article ):

In article ,
Fa-groon wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 13:32:18 -0800, Justin wrote
(in article ):

On 12/25/09 8:35 AM, News wrote:

[snip]

Take a double dose. You and Rush Limpdick.

Would it surprise you I voted for Obama?

Ah, our great Marxist hope! I voted for him too, a decision that I am
starting to regret. He is nowhere near as left-wing as he seemed
before
the
election, and he also seems to be fairly incompetent, and in spite of
his
Democratic Congress, almost totally ineffectual.

I think you might be paying a little too much attention to the 24 hour
news media, which tends not to understand how things get done in DC or
the pace at which actual politics works. They became a little too used
to how things worked under Bush, where everything was very top down,
was
oversimplified, and Congress was, for the most part, just a rubber
stamp.

No, you misunderstand me. My main disappointment with Obama is that he
told
everyone (through his books) that he was a dedicated Marxist. I expected
to
see some real movement in that direction. Other than a half-ass attempt
to
nationalize the auto industry and bailing out some banks, he doesn't
seem
very Marxist to me.

I can't speak to your bizarre interpretations of Obama's books. From
where I'm sitting, he presented himself during the campaign as a
pragmatic center-left politician and has governed as one. Those on the
right insisting he's some kind of socialist are essentially just making
things up, and those on the left who are shocked that he's not more
liberal were clearly assuming he was what they wanted him to be, rather
than actually listening to his policy positions. (The latter is
particularly obvious with respect to e.g. his Afghanistan policy. Some
on the left appear to have assumed Obama was some sort of pacifist,
because he opposed the Iraq war, despite repeated statements on his part
to the effect that he didn't oppose all wars, just bad wars.)

I actually read both "Dreams of my Father" and "The Audacity of Hope". In
both he does everything but come right out and say that he's a Marxist. If
that's a bizarre interpretation, then a lot of people have made the same
one.

Mostly right-wing lunatics. You're about the only person I've ever run
across who claims to have believed Obama was a Marxist and is
disappointed that he's not.

You need to get around more. There are lots of us.

Look, the world will eventually turn to Marxism as the only way that an
enlightened society can move forward. I'm committed to that goal and I
thought Obama was as well. I'm disappointed and I now believe that Obama
is
headed for a one-term Presidency. Too bad, he showed a lot of promise.

Because he's not enough of a Marxist? Yeah, so you're just trolling.


Sorry, I don't see how the expression of an honest opinion can be considered
a troll.

Of course, there is always a possibility that he will show himself to be more
leftist as his term goes on, in which case he might pull himself out of his
hole. I certainly hope so, I really think he could be a major force for good
in the world. Eliminating Capitalism completely, is of course, not possible
to do all at once, but over time it could happen, and Obama could be the
beginning of a new world order. I can only hope.

Yeah, look. My degree is in political science, with a theory
concentration. I've read quite a lot of Marx -- and a lot of other stuff
that puts it in context. Credit where it's due, Marx has some serious
insight into capitalism. But if there is some superior alternative to
the standard Western mix of a strong democratically elected state in
conjunction with free markets, Marxist communism is not it. It was
supposed to emerge organically from the bottom up, and never has.
Various attempts to impose it from the top down (which is pretty
incoherent if you actually read Marx) have ended disastrously.

Marxists are just another group of people who think they have a simple
framework that explains everything. Never trust people who think they
have a simple framework that explains everything, especially in
politics. Whenever they get too much power, people die.

Modern liberalism -- the real thing, not the right-wing caricature of it
-- is largely about recognizing that the world is a complicated place
and, even if you have a really shiny hammer, it's not a great idea to
pretend everything is a nail.

--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes