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Bonj
January 3rd 05, 10:08 AM
Hello
I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2 Skt
754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit machine
for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered a fairly
cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.

Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is the
cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".

Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about this
configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra fans/cooling
systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?

String
January 3rd 05, 01:26 PM
If you buy Cheap you buy twice!
A fool and his money!
You get what you pay for!

ESC is now 100% PC-Chips (someone has to be at the bottom)
Cheap power supplies are a BIG no no and most likely will cause problems you
blame on everything else.
If power supplies were cars your cheap 500w would be a Yugo I have a Enermax
365w if a car a BMW5, so we load them both with 4 people and luggage head on
round trip coast to coast full throttle. What car will make it without
needing new piston rods or burning oil?

Remember how they used to advertise those little speakers at 120w (3w) or
200w for 12$

"Bonj" > wrote in message ...
> Hello
> I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
> Skt 754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit
> machine for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered a
> fairly cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>
> Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is the
> cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>
> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
> this configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
> fans/cooling systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>
>
>

Bonj
January 3rd 05, 01:44 PM
I was more specifically asking about fans, but since you mention it what
make of power supply would you recommend?

I've had two cheap power supplies in about 3 years on my 32-bit board, so
why should the equivalent higher-power one go wrong any more on a 64-bit
board?

I'm more concerned about whether it's likely to be stable - not whether it
will go wrong *someday*, because I think any power supply will go wrong
*someday*.


"String" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> If you buy Cheap you buy twice!
> A fool and his money!
> You get what you pay for!
>
> ESC is now 100% PC-Chips (someone has to be at the bottom)
> Cheap power supplies are a BIG no no and most likely will cause problems
> you blame on everything else.
> If power supplies were cars your cheap 500w would be a Yugo I have a
> Enermax 365w if a car a BMW5, so we load them both with 4 people and
> luggage head on round trip coast to coast full throttle. What car will
> make it without needing new piston rods or burning oil?
>
> Remember how they used to advertise those little speakers at 120w (3w) or
> 200w for 12$
>
> "Bonj" > wrote in message ...
>> Hello
>> I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
>> Skt 754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit
>> machine for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered
>> a fairly cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>>
>> Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is
>> the cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>>
>> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
>> this configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
>> fans/cooling systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>>
>>
>>
>
>

January 3rd 05, 02:29 PM
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:44:14 -0000, "Bonj" > wrote:

>I was more specifically asking about fans, but since you mention it what
>make of power supply would you recommend?

>I've had two cheap power supplies in about 3 years on my 32-bit board, so
>why should the equivalent higher-power one go wrong any more on a 64-bit
>board?

>I'm more concerned about whether it's likely to be stable - not whether it
>will go wrong *someday*, because I think any power supply will go wrong
>*someday*.


>"String" > wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> If you buy Cheap you buy twice!
>> A fool and his money!
>> You get what you pay for!

>> ESC is now 100% PC-Chips (someone has to be at the bottom)
>> Cheap power supplies are a BIG no no and most likely will cause problems
>> you blame on everything else.
>> If power supplies were cars your cheap 500w would be a Yugo I have a
>> Enermax 365w if a car a BMW5, so we load them both with 4 people and
>> luggage head on round trip coast to coast full throttle. What car will
>> make it without needing new piston rods or burning oil?

>> Remember how they used to advertise those little speakers at 120w (3w) or
>> 200w for 12$

>> "Bonj" > wrote in message ...
>>> Hello
>>> I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
>>> Skt 754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit
>>> machine for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered
>>> a fairly cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.

>>> Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is
>>> the cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".

>>> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
>>> this configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
>>> fans/cooling systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?


Read dozens of thread [s] in this group on PSU's, to get you started
here are just two.

- here is a quote from Wes Newell :

"When I first got my AMD 64 3000+ I couldn't get it to stay boot
sometimes. and other times it would crash during post, etc during the
first minute. I had a 400W PSU.

I ordered 3 more, 500, 550, and 600W. All 3 ran the systemfine. The
400W still powers my XP system just fine. So yes, you need good power.
The 500W was $15, the 550 $18, and the 600 was $24. Yeah, I'm a cheap
sob.:-)

- here is a quote to Craig Coope from AMD :

"Dear Mr. Coope,

Thank you for your interest in the AMD range of products. A 340 W
Power Supply is definitely not sufficient for your system. You should
change it in any case, therefore I suggest you to take 450 W or above,
to be sure you not only have enough now but as well a little reserve
for any eventual future upgrades.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact
me again.

Best regards,

David Boizard

European Technical Services Centre
www.amd.com/eurosupport

France: 0800 908 621 (numéro vert)
Germany: +49 89 450 53199
Italy: 800 877 224
United Kingdom: +44 1276 803 299"

Loads of info in here M8

Mac Cool
January 3rd 05, 05:05 PM
Bonj:
> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries
> about this configuration

Cheap power supplies can cause problems that are very difficult to
diagnose.

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=270007
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241132

budget version:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241757
--
Mac Cool

Bonj
January 3rd 05, 05:23 PM
Any chance of answering the question that was asked, i.e. fans?

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> Bonj:
>> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries
>> about this configuration
>
> Cheap power supplies can cause problems that are very difficult to
> diagnose.
>
> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=270007
> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241132
>
> budget version:
> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241757
> --
> Mac Cool

Bonj
January 3rd 05, 05:26 PM
Why are you posting this apparent spam, unless you are affiliated with the
makers of the power supplies?


"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> Bonj:
>> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries
>> about this configuration
>
> Cheap power supplies can cause problems that are very difficult to
> diagnose.
>
> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=270007
> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241132
>
> budget version:
> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241757
> --
> Mac Cool

jacoby
January 3rd 05, 05:55 PM
I would not anticipate any additional cooling solutions. See how it performs
with what you got an go from there.


"Bonj" > wrote in message ...
> Hello
> I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
Skt
> 754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit machine
> for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered a fairly
> cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>
> Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is the
> cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>
> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
this
> configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
fans/cooling
> systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>
>
>

Paul Busby
January 3rd 05, 06:14 PM
Thus spake Bonj:
> Hello
> I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite
> K8M800-M2 Skt 754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building
> up a 64-bit machine for general stuff like games, programming etc.
> I've also ordered a fairly cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply
> off ebuyer for it.
> Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply
> is the cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>
> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries
> about this configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any
> extra fans/cooling systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them,
> etc.?

Wouldn't it be better to ask advice /before/ purchase rather than seeking
agreement afterwards? Case fans can easily be added as required (ie, if
reported temps are higher than expected/desired or if the temps drop with
the side panel off). As for PSUs, you may have got away with cheap & nasty
ones in the past but modern CPUs are more demanding as are video cards.
Cheap PSUs nearly always have far lower capacity than advertised. AMD
publish a list of tested PSUs, it's not definitive but a guide to who makes
some decent ones. Some ECS m/bs have been very popular & stable, possibly
more by luck than judgement. Cheap m/bs equal cheap caps, poor PSU
regulation & cut corners, even /less/ support than from the likes of Asus.

If I can't afford decent kit, I simply wait until I can, that way I have
more chance of stability & less need to upgrade sooner rather than later.
Whatever, good luck with your build. As for RAM, be careful with what you
fit if you want to run it at 200MHz. The moral being research to avoid
problems rather doing so to fix them :)

Bonj
January 3rd 05, 07:35 PM
> It's not so much the size of the PSU but the quality, just look at the
> PSU spec and compare, a lot of el-cheapo PSUs create line noise that can
> actually cause ram errors beside other problems. I'd take a 350W/380W
> Antec PSU over any no-name 450W+ PSU.

Is it just a case of "you get what you pay for" or are certain makes
reputable and others not? Got a link for that one you would recommend, or
how much would I expect to spend on it?

Bonj
January 3rd 05, 07:40 PM
Ok, say if I install a cheap power supply, if it "goes up the spout" is it
likely to break just itself, or anything else?
As in most likely scenario?

"Ed" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:08:20 -0000, "Bonj" > wrote:
>
>>Hello
>>I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
>>Skt
>>754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit machine
>>for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered a fairly
>>cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>>
>>Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is the
>>cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>>
>>Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
>>this
>>configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
>>fans/cooling
>>systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>>
>>
>
> You should have at least 1 rear case exhaust fan, if using high end
> video card you may want to have 2 rear fans and/or a front case fans
> also.
>
> My full tower case has 2 front and 2 rear 80mm outlets, so I use 4
> thermal case fans with their sensors stuck to various hardware, this
> keeps it cool when needed and quite as possible when just surfing,etc.
>
> It's not so much the size of the PSU but the quality, just look at the
> PSU spec and compare, a lot of el-cheapo PSUs create line noise that can
> actually cause ram errors beside other problems. I'd take a 350W/380W
> Antec PSU over any no-name 450W+ PSU.
>
> The stock AMD heatsink-fan works great and is fairly quite, though if
> you have a cheap thin case it won't really matter what fans you use as
> they'll all seem loud. Skimping on a good case and PSU now will just
> give you grief later on IMO.
>
> Ed
>

dawg
January 3rd 05, 08:14 PM
Really,the only fans you should need are CPU, Northbridge ,Lower front
inside case(intake) and PS fan. An exhaust fan in the back is fine if there
is room. If you are overclocking,more powful fans in those places is
warranted.
And the Antec Power supply line at 380w and up is a good choice. With the
more powerful components nowadays a CLEAN power source is definitely a must.
Cheap power supplies don't have clean power, by which I mean,steady voltage
from all lines.
"Bonj" > wrote in message ...
> Hello
> I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
Skt
> 754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit machine
> for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered a fairly
> cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>
> Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is the
> cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>
> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
this
> configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
fans/cooling
> systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>
>
>

Iain Dingsdale
January 3rd 05, 08:21 PM
"Bonj" > wrote in message ...
> Ok, say if I install a cheap power supply, if it "goes up the spout" is it
> likely to break just itself, or anything else?
> As in most likely scenario?
>

Could break itself and every other component, could break just itself, could
just cause stability problems. But do you want to risk it?
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17181488

> "Ed" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:08:20 -0000, "Bonj" > wrote:
>>
>>>Hello
>>>I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
>>>Skt
>>>754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit
>>>machine
>>>for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered a fairly
>>>cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>>>
>>>Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is
>>>the
>>>cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>>>
>>>Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
>>>this
>>>configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
>>>fans/cooling
>>>systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You should have at least 1 rear case exhaust fan, if using high end
>> video card you may want to have 2 rear fans and/or a front case fans
>> also.
>>
>> My full tower case has 2 front and 2 rear 80mm outlets, so I use 4
>> thermal case fans with their sensors stuck to various hardware, this
>> keeps it cool when needed and quite as possible when just surfing,etc.
>>
>> It's not so much the size of the PSU but the quality, just look at the
>> PSU spec and compare, a lot of el-cheapo PSUs create line noise that can
>> actually cause ram errors beside other problems. I'd take a 350W/380W
>> Antec PSU over any no-name 450W+ PSU.
>>
>> The stock AMD heatsink-fan works great and is fairly quite, though if
>> you have a cheap thin case it won't really matter what fans you use as
>> they'll all seem loud. Skimping on a good case and PSU now will just
>> give you grief later on IMO.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>
>

String
January 3rd 05, 08:51 PM
The capasitors pop, swell, bulge, whine or scream under load. A bad power
supply may fry a Mainboard and CPU before its too late, a good supply >IF<
they go most often do so quickly and save the rest of the parts from
overload.

Good luck


"Bonj" > wrote in message ...
> Ok, say if I install a cheap power supply, if it "goes up the spout" is it
> likely to break just itself, or anything else?
> As in most likely scenario?
>
> "Ed" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:08:20 -0000, "Bonj" > wrote:
>>
>>>Hello
>>>I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
>>>Skt
>>>754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit
>>>machine
>>>for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered a fairly
>>>cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>>>
>>>Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is
>>>the
>>>cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>>>
>>>Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
>>>this
>>>configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
>>>fans/cooling
>>>systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You should have at least 1 rear case exhaust fan, if using high end
>> video card you may want to have 2 rear fans and/or a front case fans
>> also.
>>
>> My full tower case has 2 front and 2 rear 80mm outlets, so I use 4
>> thermal case fans with their sensors stuck to various hardware, this
>> keeps it cool when needed and quite as possible when just surfing,etc.
>>
>> It's not so much the size of the PSU but the quality, just look at the
>> PSU spec and compare, a lot of el-cheapo PSUs create line noise that can
>> actually cause ram errors beside other problems. I'd take a 350W/380W
>> Antec PSU over any no-name 450W+ PSU.
>>
>> The stock AMD heatsink-fan works great and is fairly quite, though if
>> you have a cheap thin case it won't really matter what fans you use as
>> they'll all seem loud. Skimping on a good case and PSU now will just
>> give you grief later on IMO.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>
>

Wes Newell
January 3rd 05, 09:07 PM
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 12:26:28 +0000, String wrote:

> If you buy Cheap you buy twice!

And you will be able to afford to.:-)

> A fool and his money!

Pay too much for expensive name brand electronics.

> You get what you pay for!

This has been proven wrong so many times it's a joke. You get what you
research. to be a good value, other, well, you said it in your second
sentence.

>
> ESC is now 100% PC-Chips (someone has to be at the bottom) Cheap power
> supplies are a BIG no no and most likely will cause problems you blame on
> everything else.

You're full of crap. Yeah, there's some cheap crap out there that isn't
very good or way over rated, but there's also very good inexpensive PSU's.
There's also some very expensive PSU's you'll find as crap.

> If power supplies were cars your cheap 500w would be a Yugo I have a
> Enermax 365w if a car a BMW5, so we load them both with 4 people and
> luggage head on round trip coast to coast full throttle. What car will
> make it without needing new piston rods or burning oil?
>

Both being maintained properly, it's a toss up. But your comparison is
very flawed. The BMW would be considred a 600W PSU compared to the Yugo
which would be a 300W PSU, so the extra load on the Yugo would make it
fail sooner in theory., but not in every instance.

> Remember how they used to advertise those little speakers at 120w (3w)
> or 200w for 12$
>
Speakes are not electronics, and shouldn't be compared to it.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

String
January 3rd 05, 09:33 PM
Wes your arguing for argument sake alone My examples were made to make it
clear cheap products make big claims to sell junk and if you re-read I never
made any recommendation of ANY overpriced items just a warning to do
homework to avoid disappointing junk. I suspect I hit a nerve and you have
some of the low quality parts I mentioned. My point with the car was a great
example how power supplies are like cars, regardless of power claims they
are not the same. Most of those metaphors are used for a reason and
reticulating them for nothing real shows you have been a victim of each. The
speakers are a great example of overblown claims to sell junk.
If you buy Cheap you buy twice! (when smart people don't have to)
A fool and his money! (buy crap and pray for luck)
You get what you pay for! (buy crap get crap)


"Wes Newell" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .net...
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 12:26:28 +0000, String wrote:
>
>> If you buy Cheap you buy twice!
>
> And you will be able to afford to.:-)
>
>> A fool and his money!
>
> Pay too much for expensive name brand electronics.
>
>> You get what you pay for!
>
> This has been proven wrong so many times it's a joke. You get what you
> research. to be a good value, other, well, you said it in your second
> sentence.
>
>>
>> ESC is now 100% PC-Chips (someone has to be at the bottom) Cheap power
>> supplies are a BIG no no and most likely will cause problems you blame on
>> everything else.
>
> You're full of crap. Yeah, there's some cheap crap out there that isn't
> very good or way over rated, but there's also very good inexpensive PSU's.
> There's also some very expensive PSU's you'll find as crap.
>
>> If power supplies were cars your cheap 500w would be a Yugo I have a
>> Enermax 365w if a car a BMW5, so we load them both with 4 people and
>> luggage head on round trip coast to coast full throttle. What car will
>> make it without needing new piston rods or burning oil?
>>
>
> Both being maintained properly, it's a toss up. But your comparison is
> very flawed. The BMW would be considred a 600W PSU compared to the Yugo
> which would be a 300W PSU, so the extra load on the Yugo would make it
> fail sooner in theory., but not in every instance.
>
>> Remember how they used to advertise those little speakers at 120w (3w)
>> or 200w for 12$
>>
> Speakes are not electronics, and shouldn't be compared to it.
>
> --
> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Wes Newell
January 3rd 05, 10:07 PM
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 12:44:14 +0000, Bonj wrote:

> I was more specifically asking about fans, but since you mention it what
> make of power supply would you recommend?
>
For adequate ventilation you should add at least one intake to the lower
front portion of the case. If you want to do it right, cut out all the air
restricting metal grills where you mount the fan and enlarge the pastic
air intake portion as required to let the fan operate without air
restriction problems.

> I've had two cheap power supplies in about 3 years on my 32-bit board,
> so why should the equivalent higher-power one go wrong any more on a
> 64-bit board?
>
I've used literally hundreds of cheap PSU's with no more failure rates
than expenive one (disregarding the 10 I paid $2 ea for).:-)

> I'm more concerned about whether it's likely to be stable - not whether
> it will go wrong *someday*, because I think any power supply will go
> wrong *someday*.
>
I'd get 2 600W PSU's and keep one for a backup. This 600W specs look
fantastic, but I haven't used one. The price is right.

http://www.3btech.net/chdufan600wa.html

I've used a 500 & 600W Lead Power and a 550W Power Magic. They worked fine
with my A64 system. Just make sure the +12v rails are at least 20A I'd say.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Bonj
January 3rd 05, 10:34 PM
Oh right ! I see, you're assuming I'm overclocking.
Thanks for the clarification...


"Iain Dingsdale" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bonj" > wrote in message ...
>> Ok, say if I install a cheap power supply, if it "goes up the spout" is
>> it likely to break just itself, or anything else?
>> As in most likely scenario?
>>
>
> Could break itself and every other component, could break just itself,
> could just cause stability problems. But do you want to risk it?
> http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17181488
>
>> "Ed" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:08:20 -0000, "Bonj" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hello
>>>>I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
>>>>Skt
>>>>754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit
>>>>machine
>>>>for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered a
>>>>fairly
>>>>cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>>>>
>>>>Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is
>>>>the
>>>>cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>>>>
>>>>Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
>>>>this
>>>>configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
>>>>fans/cooling
>>>>systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You should have at least 1 rear case exhaust fan, if using high end
>>> video card you may want to have 2 rear fans and/or a front case fans
>>> also.
>>>
>>> My full tower case has 2 front and 2 rear 80mm outlets, so I use 4
>>> thermal case fans with their sensors stuck to various hardware, this
>>> keeps it cool when needed and quite as possible when just surfing,etc.
>>>
>>> It's not so much the size of the PSU but the quality, just look at the
>>> PSU spec and compare, a lot of el-cheapo PSUs create line noise that can
>>> actually cause ram errors beside other problems. I'd take a 350W/380W
>>> Antec PSU over any no-name 450W+ PSU.
>>>
>>> The stock AMD heatsink-fan works great and is fairly quite, though if
>>> you have a cheap thin case it won't really matter what fans you use as
>>> they'll all seem loud. Skimping on a good case and PSU now will just
>>> give you grief later on IMO.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

January 3rd 05, 11:39 PM
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:51:08 GMT, "String" >
wrote:

>«snip»«snip»«snip»«snip»«snip»«snip»«snip»«snip»«s nip»«snip»

>The capasitors pop, swell, bulge, whine or scream under load. A bad power
>supply may fry a Mainboard and CPU before its too late, a good supply >IF<

It does not fry a mainboard the PSU refuses to switch on, [ surge ]
the 'over current protection' circuit in a good-or-bad PSU is
triggered by

= bad caps.

>they go most often do so quickly and save the rest of the parts from
>overload.

Bad caps are bad caps, cause = bad caps not poor PSU, ask Homie© he
nearly sank Abit & the entire Taiwanese capacitor industry making.

= bad caps

ask Gary here :

>Good luck
BoroLad

Mac Cool
January 4th 05, 03:47 AM
Bonj:

> Why are you posting this apparent spam, unless you are affiliated
> with the makers of the power supplies?

You wrote that to me and in your next post you begged someone else for
recommendations for a different power supply and got the same answers I
and others have already given you. If you had bothered to read all the
replies, from people who have been trying to help you, you would have
noticed that I was neither the first person or the last person to
recommend an Antec power supply. Instead of acting like a jerk you should
be asking yourself why almost every reply has recommended that you not buy
a generic PS and has recommend an Antec instead. Best of luck.
--
Mac Cool

Mac Cool
January 4th 05, 03:48 AM
Bonj:

> Any chance of answering the question that was asked, i.e. fans?

I answered your first question. The answer to your second question is
'no', if you take my advice. If you don't take my, and everyone else's
advice, and buy the cheapest case & PS that you can find, then the 2nd
question is impossible to answer without some familiarity with the case. I
read a post this morning from a guy who had stability problems, that he
replaced his El Cheapo PS with an Antec and his CPU temps dropped 10c.
--
Mac Cool

January 4th 05, 09:59 AM
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:23:58 -0000, "Bonj" > wrote:

>Any chance of answering the question that was asked, i.e. fans?

>"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
>> Bonj:
>>> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries
>>> about this configuration

>> Cheap power supplies can cause problems that are very difficult to
>> diagnose.

>> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=270007
>> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241132

>> budget version:
>> http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241757
>> --
>> Mac Cool

Fans, brand Case- 2000RMP [ish ]:
- brand, 'Panaflow' or, ;
- Sanyo-Denki, or ;
- YS-TECH

PSU, brand :
- Fortron/Sparkle

N.B SilenX.com make a refined version of the Fortron/Sparkle with
better heatsinks capacitors and mofsets - this gives the 12V rail more
stability.

BoroLad

Wes Newell
January 4th 05, 10:32 AM
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 02:48:04 +0000, Mac Cool wrote:

> Bonj:
>
>> Any chance of answering the question that was asked, i.e. fans?
>
> I answered your first question. The answer to your second question is
> 'no', if you take my advice. If you don't take my, and everyone else's
> advice, and buy the cheapest case & PS that you can find, then the 2nd
> question is impossible to answer without some familiarity with the case. I
> read a post this morning from a guy who had stability problems, that he
> replaced his El Cheapo PS with an Antec and his CPU temps dropped 10c.

Give me a f*cking break. If his temps dropped 10C then his cooler wasn't
on right to begin with or he had vcore set to high on the board or in the
bios. To actually atribute the drop in temps to the PSU is about the
wildest BS I've ever heard.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Antoine Leca
January 4th 05, 11:41 AM
En [email protected], String va escriure:
> If power supplies were cars your cheap 500w would be a Yugo I have
> a Enermax 365w if a car a BMW5, so we load them both with 4 people
> and luggage head on round trip coast to coast full throttle.

I know of too much people that had problems with their BMWs because these
cars had too much power available for the average driver, and they end
outside the road. Never heard of this kind of problem with Yugo.

Of course I'd prefer being in a BMW (or a Volvo or a Hummy, this not against
Germans) than in a Yugo if I crashed against a wall. But overall I prefer
NOT crashing.

Anyway your comparison is reversed. Better compare low-priced GTi (like R.5
GT turbo, injured/killed a lot; do not know U.S. equivalent) as cheap 500W
against a luxury car.


Antoine

Mac Cool
January 4th 05, 04:19 PM
Wes Newell:

>> I read a post this morning from a guy who had stability problems,
>> that he replaced his El Cheapo PS with an Antec and his CPU temps
>> dropped 10c.
>
> Give me a f*cking break. If his temps dropped 10C then his cooler
> wasn't on right to begin with or he had vcore set to high on the
> board or in the bios. To actually atribute the drop in temps to the
> PSU is about the wildest BS I've ever heard.

I'm just relaying another person's experience, don't get hostile with me.
FYI, if the generic powersupply wasn't evacuating air from the case
properly, then YES, it is entirely possible that changing the PS dropped
the CPU temp. Why do people put extra fans on their case? To move more air
through the case and keep the temps lower. What happens if you plug up the
case? The temps will increase. Think things through before posting.
--
Mac Cool

Wes Newell
January 4th 05, 09:28 PM
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 15:19:02 +0000, Mac Cool wrote:

> Wes Newell:
>
>>> I read a post this morning from a guy who had stability problems, that
>>> he replaced his El Cheapo PS with an Antec and his CPU temps dropped
>>> 10c.
>>
>> Give me a f*cking break. If his temps dropped 10C then his cooler wasn't
>> on right to begin with or he had vcore set to high on the board or in
>> the bios. To actually atribute the drop in temps to the PSU is about the
>> wildest BS I've ever heard.
>
> I'm just relaying another person's experience, don't get hostile with me.

You think that was hostile? it wasn't ment to be. I'm just blunt.:-)

> FYI, if the generic powersupply wasn't evacuating air from the case
> properly, then YES, it is entirely possible that changing the PS dropped
> the CPU temp.

No way in hell (just being blunt, so don't get offended) does this have
anything to do with power. If the fan was screwed up on the PSU, that's a
whole different story. Still can't see cpu temps dropping that much even
if the fan was completely dead. But the temp problem he was having could
most certainly be directly related to the stability problem. So now we
don't know if the power or the temp was the cause of the stabilty problem.
IOW, BS.:-)


> Why do people put extra fans on their case? To move more air
> through the case and keep the temps lower. What happens if you plug up the
> case? The temps will increase. Think things through before posting.

And all this time I though the people just liked the extra noise.:-)

But you used the message to infer that the el cheapo PSU as the cause of
all his problems, when in fact you can't relate it to a certain to any of
them.

i'm just here to state for a fact that out of the hundreds of cheap PSU's
I've used the failure rates were no different than the expensive ones. And
there's really no reason to warn people off them if they choose to buy
them. BTW, the systems I build run in some of the worst invironments you
can think of. And they run 24/7 unattended. Some in places that range fron
30-100+F over the year. Some in enclosed small places that stay
constantly hot. Yes, some morons insist that they nust go there. I can't
do anything but warn them. They bought it, it's there's, but with a
defaulted warranty.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Bonj
January 5th 05, 12:16 AM
Right... I've decided to go for the existing case and stick with the new
(cheap) 500w psu, but replace the heatsink and cpu-fan that comes with the
amd64 chip with a much more hardcore one, possibly even watercooled. This'll
keep it running like a mutha. I'll then add an exhaust fan, and monitor the
cpu's temparature from within software and see if it's within an acceptable
range. After all, why would I have any reason to think that the cooler I get
with the chip would be a particularly good one - (on the contrary even),
I've therefore decided this is good enough reason for me to indicate the
standard cpu-fan and heatsink to be a more susceptible component than the
psu that I don't know anything about, and neither would I know anything
about a more expensive one, other than the fact that it's more expensive.

Cheers for the input

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> Wes Newell:
>
>>> I read a post this morning from a guy who had stability problems,
>>> that he replaced his El Cheapo PS with an Antec and his CPU temps
>>> dropped 10c.
>>
>> Give me a f*cking break. If his temps dropped 10C then his cooler
>> wasn't on right to begin with or he had vcore set to high on the
>> board or in the bios. To actually atribute the drop in temps to the
>> PSU is about the wildest BS I've ever heard.
>
> I'm just relaying another person's experience, don't get hostile with me.
> FYI, if the generic powersupply wasn't evacuating air from the case
> properly, then YES, it is entirely possible that changing the PS dropped
> the CPU temp. Why do people put extra fans on their case? To move more air
> through the case and keep the temps lower. What happens if you plug up the
> case? The temps will increase. Think things through before posting.
> --
> Mac Cool

Bonj
January 5th 05, 12:17 AM
> But the temp problem he was having could

who was "having a temp problem"?


> most certainly be directly related to the stability problem. So now we
> don't know if the power or the temp was the cause of the stabilty problem.
> IOW, BS.:-)
>
>
>> Why do people put extra fans on their case? To move more air
>> through the case and keep the temps lower. What happens if you plug up
>> the
>> case? The temps will increase. Think things through before posting.
>
> And all this time I though the people just liked the extra noise.:-)
>
> But you used the message to infer that the el cheapo PSU as the cause of
> all his problems, when in fact you can't relate it to a certain to any of
> them.
>
> i'm just here to state for a fact that out of the hundreds of cheap PSU's
> I've used the failure rates were no different than the expensive ones. And
> there's really no reason to warn people off them if they choose to buy
> them. BTW, the systems I build run in some of the worst invironments you
> can think of. And they run 24/7 unattended. Some in places that range fron
> 30-100+F over the year. Some in enclosed small places that stay
> constantly hot. Yes, some morons insist that they nust go there. I can't
> do anything but warn them. They bought it, it's there's, but with a
> defaulted warranty.
>
> --
> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Bonj
January 5th 05, 12:18 AM
Right, thank you. Some sense being talked, I appreciate it.

"Wes Newell" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .net...
> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 02:48:04 +0000, Mac Cool wrote:
>
>> Bonj:
>>
>>> Any chance of answering the question that was asked, i.e. fans?
>>
>> I answered your first question. The answer to your second question is
>> 'no', if you take my advice. If you don't take my, and everyone else's
>> advice, and buy the cheapest case & PS that you can find, then the 2nd
>> question is impossible to answer without some familiarity with the case.
>> I
>> read a post this morning from a guy who had stability problems, that he
>> replaced his El Cheapo PS with an Antec and his CPU temps dropped 10c.
>
> Give me a f*cking break. If his temps dropped 10C then his cooler wasn't
> on right to begin with or he had vcore set to high on the board or in the
> bios. To actually atribute the drop in temps to the PSU is about the
> wildest BS I've ever heard.
>
> --
> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Bonj
January 5th 05, 12:20 AM
Oh, I see, yes.... the one that supposedly dropped when he replaced the psu.
Reading backwards again, sorry...

"Wes Newell" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] net...
> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 15:19:02 +0000, Mac Cool wrote:
>
>> Wes Newell:
>>
>>>> I read a post this morning from a guy who had stability problems, that
>>>> he replaced his El Cheapo PS with an Antec and his CPU temps dropped
>>>> 10c.
>>>
>>> Give me a f*cking break. If his temps dropped 10C then his cooler wasn't
>>> on right to begin with or he had vcore set to high on the board or in
>>> the bios. To actually atribute the drop in temps to the PSU is about the
>>> wildest BS I've ever heard.
>>
>> I'm just relaying another person's experience, don't get hostile with me.
>
> You think that was hostile? it wasn't ment to be. I'm just blunt.:-)
>
>> FYI, if the generic powersupply wasn't evacuating air from the case
>> properly, then YES, it is entirely possible that changing the PS dropped
>> the CPU temp.
>
> No way in hell (just being blunt, so don't get offended) does this have
> anything to do with power. If the fan was screwed up on the PSU, that's a
> whole different story. Still can't see cpu temps dropping that much even
> if the fan was completely dead. But the temp problem he was having could
> most certainly be directly related to the stability problem. So now we
> don't know if the power or the temp was the cause of the stabilty problem.
> IOW, BS.:-)
>
>
>> Why do people put extra fans on their case? To move more air
>> through the case and keep the temps lower. What happens if you plug up
>> the
>> case? The temps will increase. Think things through before posting.
>
> And all this time I though the people just liked the extra noise.:-)
>
> But you used the message to infer that the el cheapo PSU as the cause of
> all his problems, when in fact you can't relate it to a certain to any of
> them.
>
> i'm just here to state for a fact that out of the hundreds of cheap PSU's
> I've used the failure rates were no different than the expensive ones. And
> there's really no reason to warn people off them if they choose to buy
> them. BTW, the systems I build run in some of the worst invironments you
> can think of. And they run 24/7 unattended. Some in places that range fron
> 30-100+F over the year. Some in enclosed small places that stay
> constantly hot. Yes, some morons insist that they nust go there. I can't
> do anything but warn them. They bought it, it's there's, but with a
> defaulted warranty.
>
> --
> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Bonj
January 5th 05, 12:27 AM
Oh *Antec*, you work for them then - that explains it.

"Mac Cool" > wrote in message
...
> Bonj:
>
>> Why are you posting this apparent spam, unless you are affiliated
>> with the makers of the power supplies?
>
> You wrote that to me and in your next post you begged someone else for
> recommendations for a different power supply and got the same answers I
> and others have already given you. If you had bothered to read all the
> replies, from people who have been trying to help you, you would have
> noticed that I was neither the first person or the last person to
> recommend an Antec power supply. Instead of acting like a jerk you should
> be asking yourself why almost every reply has recommended that you not buy
> a generic PS and has recommend an Antec instead. Best of luck.
> --
> Mac Cool

String
January 5th 05, 12:40 AM
Reminds me of the people who smoke and use the few examples of people who
smoke and live to old age BUT the grave yard is full of those that make the
bulk of smokers who did not.
Cheap power supplies have a **** poor success rate but you have one that's a
miracle magic ones deifying average you think its something to promote to
everyone. I was hired by a local shop to manage their tech shop, the money
coming in was not equaling salaries out? I discovered the amount of power
supply failures and problems associated with the same were taking half the
day for most technicians. I instituted a NO cheap power supplies sold as
stand alone or in cases. Those problems disappeared almost instantly
freeing up our technicians to make money not diagnose $20 poor power
supplies. Buy cheap buy twice, sell cheep pay too many technicians. (Ram as
well)
You stubbornly stick to promoting junk and if you made computers for my
clients insisting using those **** poor power supplies you would not work
for me.
Thought ? Do you work for the generic power supply consortium?

I wish you continued success with your power supplies,
Eyes Open



"Wes Newell" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] net...
> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 15:19:02 +0000, Mac Cool wrote:
>
>> Wes Newell:
>>
>>>> I read a post this morning from a guy who had stability problems, that
>>>> he replaced his El Cheapo PS with an Antec and his CPU temps dropped
>>>> 10c.
>>>
>>> Give me a f*cking break. If his temps dropped 10C then his cooler wasn't
>>> on right to begin with or he had vcore set to high on the board or in
>>> the bios. To actually atribute the drop in temps to the PSU is about the
>>> wildest BS I've ever heard.
>>
>> I'm just relaying another person's experience, don't get hostile with me.
>
> You think that was hostile? it wasn't ment to be. I'm just blunt.:-)
>
>> FYI, if the generic powersupply wasn't evacuating air from the case
>> properly, then YES, it is entirely possible that changing the PS dropped
>> the CPU temp.
>
> No way in hell (just being blunt, so don't get offended) does this have
> anything to do with power. If the fan was screwed up on the PSU, that's a
> whole different story. Still can't see cpu temps dropping that much even
> if the fan was completely dead. But the temp problem he was having could
> most certainly be directly related to the stability problem. So now we
> don't know if the power or the temp was the cause of the stabilty problem.
> IOW, BS.:-)
>
>
>> Why do people put extra fans on their case? To move more air
>> through the case and keep the temps lower. What happens if you plug up
>> the
>> case? The temps will increase. Think things through before posting.
>
> And all this time I though the people just liked the extra noise.:-)
>
> But you used the message to infer that the el cheapo PSU as the cause of
> all his problems, when in fact you can't relate it to a certain to any of
> them.
>
> i'm just here to state for a fact that out of the hundreds of cheap PSU's
> I've used the failure rates were no different than the expensive ones. And
> there's really no reason to warn people off them if they choose to buy
> them. BTW, the systems I build run in some of the worst invironments you
> can think of. And they run 24/7 unattended. Some in places that range fron
> 30-100+F over the year. Some in enclosed small places that stay
> constantly hot. Yes, some morons insist that they nust go there. I can't
> do anything but warn them. They bought it, it's there's, but with a
> defaulted warranty.
>
> --
> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Mitch Crane
January 5th 05, 01:08 AM
"Bonj" > wrote in :

> Right... I've decided to go for the existing case and stick with the
> new (cheap) 500w psu, but replace the heatsink and cpu-fan that comes
> with the amd64 chip with a much more hardcore one, possibly even
> watercooled. This'll keep it running like a mutha. I'll then add an
> exhaust fan, and monitor the cpu's temparature from within software
> and see if it's within an acceptable range. After all, why would I
> have any reason to think that the cooler I get with the chip would be
> a particularly good one - (on the contrary even), I've therefore
> decided this is good enough reason for me to indicate the standard
> cpu-fan and heatsink to be a more susceptible component than the psu
> that I don't know anything about, and neither would I know anything
> about a more expensive one, other than the fact that it's more
> expensive.

On the other hand, I'm using the stock HSF on my 3200+ and an Enermax PSU.
It's running stable @ 2500MHz (idles in the upper 30's and hits 52 or so at
100%). Do what you want, but I think buying a cheap PSU while spending
money for unnecessary stuff like liquid cooling is just dumb

Of course, a good PSU won't look anymore impressive than a ****ty one and
the stock HSF just doesn't look the least bit pimp.

Mitch Crane
January 5th 05, 01:11 AM
"Bonj" > wrote in :

> Oh *Antec*, you work for them then - that explains it.

I'm getting the distinct impression that you weren't looking for sound
advice, but for someone to validate your own opinion. Good luck with your
$200 water cooling kit and your $20 PSU.

Mac Cool
January 5th 05, 06:09 AM
Wes Newell:
>> FYI, if the generic powersupply wasn't evacuating air from the case
>> properly, then YES, it is entirely possible that changing the PS
>> dropped the CPU temp.

> But the temp problem he was having could most certainly be directly
> related to the stability problem. So now we don't know if the power
> or the temp was the cause of the stabilty problem. IOW, BS.:-)

You're making assumptions... his temps were in the 40's prior to
changing the power supply and I didn't say that his stability problem
went away.

>> Why do people put extra fans on their case? To move more air
>> through the case and keep the temps lower. What happens if you plug
>> up the case? The temps will increase. Think things through before
>> posting.
>
> And all this time I though the people just liked the extra noise.:-)
>
> But you used the message to infer that the el cheapo PSU as the cause
> of all his problems, when in fact you can't relate it to a certain to
> any of them.

No, you infer, I imply, but I wasn't implying anything. I don't know if
changing the power supply fixed his problem or not, I was relating an
experience about temperature.

> i'm just here to state for a fact that out of the hundreds of cheap
> PSU's I've used the failure rates were no different than the
> expensive ones.

How do you know? Facts can be proven. Prove it.
--
Mac Cool

Wes Newell
January 5th 05, 09:33 AM
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:16:08 +0000, Bonj wrote:

> Right... I've decided to go for the existing case and stick with the new
> (cheap) 500w psu, but replace the heatsink and cpu-fan that comes with the
> amd64 chip with a much more hardcore one, possibly even watercooled.

There's really no need to replace the stock A64 cooler. The HS itself is
very good (unlike coolers for the XP line). It works well with the stock
fan, but I replaced the little 70x15mm fan with a 70->80mm fan adapter and
installed an 80x25mm low speed fan just to make it quieter. Can't even
hear it now. If you want max cooling just throw an 80mm high speed fan on
it with a fan control.

> This'll keep it running like a mutha. I'll then add an exhaust fan, and
> monitor the cpu's temparature from within software and see if it's
> within an acceptable range.

You don't want to add an exhaust fan unless you first add 1 or 2 intake
fans. In reality, all you shoukld need to add would be 1 intake fan. The
PSU already has an exhaust fan where it should be, at the top of case.
Adding all exhaust fans will create stress, noise, and without an intake
fan is just not good. It could leave your PSU overheating as it will
fighting for air to pull through the PSU too. Not to mention a starved fan
makes more noise.

Just like PSU's, there's also cheap coolers that will work better than
expensive ones.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Wes Newell
January 5th 05, 09:36 AM
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:11:20 +0000, Mitch Crane wrote:

> "Bonj" > wrote in :
>
>> Oh *Antec*, you work for them then - that explains it.
>
> I'm getting the distinct impression that you weren't looking for sound
> advice, but for someone to validate your own opinion. Good luck with your
> $200 water cooling kit and your $20 PSU.

Heck if he paid $20 he got ripped off, Mine was only $12, $15 shipped.:-)


--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Wes Newell
January 5th 05, 10:20 AM
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:40:08 +0000, String wrote:

> Reminds me of the people who smoke and use the few examples of people who
> smoke and live to old age BUT the grave yard is full of those that make
> the bulk of smokers who did not.

Not even close to what i said. I said the majority, somewhere between
90-95% of the hundreds of inexpensive PSU's I've used run 5 years or more.
The one I put in the company server in about 1995 is still running. It
cost about $20 then.

> Cheap power supplies have a **** poor success rate but you have one
> that's a miracle magic ones deifying average you think its something to
> promote to everyone.

I don't know where you get your success rate figures from, but I know
where mine come from, and the PSU works just as good as the expensive
ones. Granted I don't run extensive test to see if they actually put out
100% of their ratings, but I don't care about that. At under $20 a pop
they work, and work well enough for any system I've built. If they didn't,
I wouldn't use them in my machine and certainly not in machines we sell
and maintain at customers sites, since failures cost way more money in
time than than the price of an expensive PSU.

> I was hired by a local shop to manage their tech shop, the money coming
> in was not equaling salaries out? I discovered the amount of power
> supply failures and problems associated with the same were taking half
> the day for most technicians. I instituted a NO cheap power supplies
> sold as stand alone or in cases. Those problems disappeared almost
> instantly freeing up our technicians to make money not diagnose $20 poor
> power supplies. Buy cheap buy twice, sell cheep pay too many
> technicians. (Ram as well) You stubbornly stick to promoting junk and if
> you made computers for my clients insisting using those **** poor power
> supplies you would not work for me.

There's many reasons reasons you may have had so many failures. And if it
took one of the techs I supervise a half a day to replace a PSU, he'd be
looking for another job fast. Most PSU's can be changed in a matter of
mintues. Certainly less than 30, not counting travel time. The failure
rates you found could just as easily be contributed to the wrong size PSU
ion the first place. I've seen this problem many times. I'll be the first
to admit that cheap PSU's *may* be over rated. Simply buy one with that
in mind and you should be fine. And don't worry, I'm not looking for a
job.

So I gather you don't like cheap ram either? That's all I use too.:-) A
60ns ram chip is a 60ns ram chip. Doesn't matter who's circuit board you
stick it on as long as the ram is the same PN. I can see you waste a lot
of money, so you would most definately not work for me, at least not for
long. Want to know what I know about ram? I used to design, manufacture
and sell ram upgrades. yep, I designed them, layed them out, had the
boards manufactured, assembled, and distributed. So BS all the other
people you want. I know better.

> Thought ? Do you work for the generic power supply consortium?
>
Nope, I don't work at all any more. Now don't get me wrong, there are some
trashy PSU's out there. I bought 20 old AT PSU's for $2 each. They even
looked trashy. And they had a 20% failure rate within a few months. I know
the others were still going after a couple of years. Needless to say, no
more were purchased. But the majoirty of cheap psu's ( just not that
cheap) work fine.

> I wish you continued success with your power supplies, Eyes Open
>
Luck has nothing to do with it, but thanks.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Wes Newell
January 5th 05, 10:45 AM
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 05:09:14 +0000, Mac Cool wrote:

> Wes Newell:
>> i'm just here to state for a fact that out of the hundreds of cheap
>> PSU's I've used the failure rates were no different than the expensive
>> ones.
>
> How do you know? Facts can be proven. Prove it.

I know because I made all the computer component purchases for these
machines. And I give first hand testimony that it's true. Now you have 2
choices. Either prove I'm a liar or stick it in your ass. And yes, that
was a hostile statement. Can you tell the difference.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

String
January 5th 05, 05:15 PM
Wrong on your cheep ram opinions as well. Cheap Ram is the number 2 cause of
undiagnosable problems If it works for you that's good luck. You will not
find any of that junk in top brands for a reason.
Cheep ram comes out of low quality plants using thin cheap PCBs poor
soldering metals cheap made chips or seconds from good manufactures. I also
instituted a NO cheap ram policy at our shop and our return rate for PS and
Ram went down 4000% labour at the shop made money with higher turnover. The
number one ram maker counterfeit in Europe is hynix and 20% or more is fake
(the Inquire or register last year).
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/182427.cms
Cheap plants don't test chips just assemble and ship same as those **** poor
crappie PS and don't care if they get a bad rep because they will have a new
name next week..
An so you know the GOOD as well as POOR PS are made in those 50 cents an
hour plants so your overpriced labour theory is more bunk to defend poor
power supplies as quality with low labour.
You are a stubborn person like my brother never change your mind or give
ground even in the face of a mountain of proof, 100 people tell him one
thing but some how they are all wrong and he is right.

Good luck Wes,


"Wes Newell" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] net...
> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:40:08 +0000, String wrote:
>
>> Reminds me of the people who smoke and use the few examples of people who
>> smoke and live to old age BUT the grave yard is full of those that make
>> the bulk of smokers who did not.
>
> Not even close to what i said. I said the majority, somewhere between
> 90-95% of the hundreds of inexpensive PSU's I've used run 5 years or more.
> The one I put in the company server in about 1995 is still running. It
> cost about $20 then.
>
>> Cheap power supplies have a **** poor success rate but you have one
>> that's a miracle magic ones deifying average you think its something to
>> promote to everyone.
>
> I don't know where you get your success rate figures from, but I know
> where mine come from, and the PSU works just as good as the expensive
> ones. Granted I don't run extensive test to see if they actually put out
> 100% of their ratings, but I don't care about that. At under $20 a pop
> they work, and work well enough for any system I've built. If they didn't,
> I wouldn't use them in my machine and certainly not in machines we sell
> and maintain at customers sites, since failures cost way more money in
> time than than the price of an expensive PSU.
>
>> I was hired by a local shop to manage their tech shop, the money coming
>> in was not equaling salaries out? I discovered the amount of power
>> supply failures and problems associated with the same were taking half
>> the day for most technicians. I instituted a NO cheap power supplies
>> sold as stand alone or in cases. Those problems disappeared almost
>> instantly freeing up our technicians to make money not diagnose $20 poor
>> power supplies. Buy cheap buy twice, sell cheep pay too many
>> technicians. (Ram as well) You stubbornly stick to promoting junk and if
>> you made computers for my clients insisting using those **** poor power
>> supplies you would not work for me.
>
> There's many reasons reasons you may have had so many failures. And if it
> took one of the techs I supervise a half a day to replace a PSU, he'd be
> looking for another job fast. Most PSU's can be changed in a matter of
> mintues. Certainly less than 30, not counting travel time. The failure
> rates you found could just as easily be contributed to the wrong size PSU
> ion the first place. I've seen this problem many times. I'll be the first
> to admit that cheap PSU's *may* be over rated. Simply buy one with that
> in mind and you should be fine. And don't worry, I'm not looking for a
> job.
>
> So I gather you don't like cheap ram either? That's all I use too.:-) A
> 60ns ram chip is a 60ns ram chip. Doesn't matter who's circuit board you
> stick it on as long as the ram is the same PN. I can see you waste a lot
> of money, so you would most definately not work for me, at least not for
> long. Want to know what I know about ram? I used to design, manufacture
> and sell ram upgrades. yep, I designed them, layed them out, had the
> boards manufactured, assembled, and distributed. So BS all the other
> people you want. I know better.
>
>> Thought ? Do you work for the generic power supply consortium?
>>
> Nope, I don't work at all any more. Now don't get me wrong, there are some
> trashy PSU's out there. I bought 20 old AT PSU's for $2 each. They even
> looked trashy. And they had a 20% failure rate within a few months. I know
> the others were still going after a couple of years. Needless to say, no
> more were purchased. But the majoirty of cheap psu's ( just not that
> cheap) work fine.
>
>> I wish you continued success with your power supplies, Eyes Open
>>
> Luck has nothing to do with it, but thanks.
>
> --
> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Mitch Crane
January 5th 05, 06:57 PM
Wes Newell > wrote in
news:[email protected] net:

> On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 00:11:20 +0000, Mitch Crane wrote:
>
>> "Bonj" > wrote in :
>>
>>> Oh *Antec*, you work for them then - that explains it.
>>
>> I'm getting the distinct impression that you weren't looking for
>> sound advice, but for someone to validate your own opinion. Good luck
>> with your $200 water cooling kit and your $20 PSU.
>
> Heck if he paid $20 he got ripped off, Mine was only $12, $15
> shipped.:-)

True. $20 for a hunk of scrap metal some leaky capacitors and some wire is
definitely too much.

Mac Cool
January 5th 05, 07:49 PM
>> Wes Newell:
>>> i'm just here to state for a fact that out of the hundreds of cheap
>>> PSU's I've used the failure rates were no different than the
>>> expensive ones.
>>
>> How do you know? Facts can be proven. Prove it.
>
> I know because I made all the computer component purchases for these
> machines. And I give first hand testimony that it's true. Now you
> have 2 choices. Either prove I'm a liar or stick it in your ass. And
> yes, that was a hostile statement. Can you tell the difference.

The burden of proof fell on you when you characterized your information
as fact. You cannot 'know' that the failure rates are equivalent unless
you have used an equivalent number of quality and generic power
supplies and kept enviromental and maintenance logs on all of them.
Your anger makes it obvious that you really have no way of supporting
your statements. So I will take option C and do nothing, because nothing
is required of me.

I also want to point out that 'cheap' is really the wrong word, cheap
is relative. There are inexpensive power supplies that are good
quality. The generic PS are the ones that you should beware of, that
are pumped out of factories from god knows where and the 'brand' may
only exist for a production run. --
Mac Cool

eric
January 5th 05, 08:42 PM
a ps is a ps...

if you buy a pos ps , then you end up with power that may not be as reliable
but
in most circumstances will suffice -- unless you are a business or a
corporation,
it doesn't seem to pay to buy a 'name brand' ps.

of course wattage is a big factor - always good to have 'more than' your
needs
max

i like the idea of the smart ps that adjusts the fan speed dependent on the
temperature .. these are standard now i beleive.

i have yet to get an amd ... i was thinking the amdxp because there is quite
a price dif to hop up to the amd64 ...

of course the ps should be at least a 450 watt for such a machine ? )
normal hd, and cd rom peripherals ..

"Mitch Crane" -three> wrote in message
.95...
> "Bonj" > wrote in :
>
> > Oh *Antec*, you work for them then - that explains it.
>
> I'm getting the distinct impression that you weren't looking for sound
> advice, but for someone to validate your own opinion. Good luck with your
> $200 water cooling kit and your $20 PSU.
>

Mitch Crane
January 5th 05, 09:00 PM
"eric" > wrote in news:oqXCd.1396$%e1.370
@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:

> a ps is a ps...

And a cpu is a cpu and a car is a car and a duck is a duck and a
frankfurter might be a hot dog. They aren't all equal, however.

Bonj
January 6th 05, 01:23 AM
You've got to remember that a lot of the people who are posting stating that
cheap power supplies have bust on them are probably the sort of people who
are overclocking their machines to a ridiculous degree. It's far too glib to
assume that because the speed it runs at out of the box isn't the maximum
speed it can possibly run at, that you should therefore increase its speed
in order to see better performance, as this often turns out to prevail only
in the short term. There's a difference between maximum speed and maximum
recommended speed - the latter keeps the operation of all components within
stated electronic limits, and thus renders it far less likely to break.

"String" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Wrong on your cheep ram opinions as well. Cheap Ram is the number 2 cause
> of undiagnosable problems If it works for you that's good luck. You will
> not find any of that junk in top brands for a reason.
> Cheep ram comes out of low quality plants using thin cheap PCBs poor
> soldering metals cheap made chips or seconds from good manufactures. I
> also instituted a NO cheap ram policy at our shop and our return rate for
> PS and Ram went down 4000% labour at the shop made money with higher
> turnover. The number one ram maker counterfeit in Europe is hynix and 20%
> or more is fake (the Inquire or register last year).
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/182427.cms
> Cheap plants don't test chips just assemble and ship same as those ****
> poor crappie PS and don't care if they get a bad rep because they will
> have a new name next week..
> An so you know the GOOD as well as POOR PS are made in those 50 cents an
> hour plants so your overpriced labour theory is more bunk to defend poor
> power supplies as quality with low labour.
> You are a stubborn person like my brother never change your mind or give
> ground even in the face of a mountain of proof, 100 people tell him one
> thing but some how they are all wrong and he is right.
>
> Good luck Wes,
>
>
> "Wes Newell" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected] net...
>> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:40:08 +0000, String wrote:
>>
>>> Reminds me of the people who smoke and use the few examples of people
>>> who
>>> smoke and live to old age BUT the grave yard is full of those that make
>>> the bulk of smokers who did not.
>>
>> Not even close to what i said. I said the majority, somewhere between
>> 90-95% of the hundreds of inexpensive PSU's I've used run 5 years or
>> more.
>> The one I put in the company server in about 1995 is still running. It
>> cost about $20 then.
>>
>>> Cheap power supplies have a **** poor success rate but you have one
>>> that's a miracle magic ones deifying average you think its something to
>>> promote to everyone.
>>
>> I don't know where you get your success rate figures from, but I know
>> where mine come from, and the PSU works just as good as the expensive
>> ones. Granted I don't run extensive test to see if they actually put out
>> 100% of their ratings, but I don't care about that. At under $20 a pop
>> they work, and work well enough for any system I've built. If they
>> didn't,
>> I wouldn't use them in my machine and certainly not in machines we sell
>> and maintain at customers sites, since failures cost way more money in
>> time than than the price of an expensive PSU.
>>
>>> I was hired by a local shop to manage their tech shop, the money coming
>>> in was not equaling salaries out? I discovered the amount of power
>>> supply failures and problems associated with the same were taking half
>>> the day for most technicians. I instituted a NO cheap power supplies
>>> sold as stand alone or in cases. Those problems disappeared almost
>>> instantly freeing up our technicians to make money not diagnose $20 poor
>>> power supplies. Buy cheap buy twice, sell cheep pay too many
>>> technicians. (Ram as well) You stubbornly stick to promoting junk and if
>>> you made computers for my clients insisting using those **** poor power
>>> supplies you would not work for me.
>>
>> There's many reasons reasons you may have had so many failures. And if it
>> took one of the techs I supervise a half a day to replace a PSU, he'd be
>> looking for another job fast. Most PSU's can be changed in a matter of
>> mintues. Certainly less than 30, not counting travel time. The failure
>> rates you found could just as easily be contributed to the wrong size PSU
>> ion the first place. I've seen this problem many times. I'll be the first
>> to admit that cheap PSU's *may* be over rated. Simply buy one with that
>> in mind and you should be fine. And don't worry, I'm not looking for a
>> job.
>>
>> So I gather you don't like cheap ram either? That's all I use too.:-) A
>> 60ns ram chip is a 60ns ram chip. Doesn't matter who's circuit board you
>> stick it on as long as the ram is the same PN. I can see you waste a lot
>> of money, so you would most definately not work for me, at least not for
>> long. Want to know what I know about ram? I used to design, manufacture
>> and sell ram upgrades. yep, I designed them, layed them out, had the
>> boards manufactured, assembled, and distributed. So BS all the other
>> people you want. I know better.
>>
>>> Thought ? Do you work for the generic power supply consortium?
>>>
>> Nope, I don't work at all any more. Now don't get me wrong, there are
>> some
>> trashy PSU's out there. I bought 20 old AT PSU's for $2 each. They even
>> looked trashy. And they had a 20% failure rate within a few months. I
>> know
>> the others were still going after a couple of years. Needless to say, no
>> more were purchased. But the majoirty of cheap psu's ( just not that
>> cheap) work fine.
>>
>>> I wish you continued success with your power supplies, Eyes Open
>>>
>> Luck has nothing to do with it, but thanks.
>>
>> --
>> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
>> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm
>
>

Bonj
January 6th 05, 01:27 AM
> No, you infer, I imply, but I wasn't implying anything. I don't know if
> changing the power supply fixed his problem or not, I was relating an
> experience about temperature.

Yes, but that wasn't the subject, PSUs was... the original subject was
supposed to be fans, but since you just mention temperature in general and
just imply that it's due to the power supply without any mention of fans,
but then renege that you said that when challenged, suggests that this
experience of yours is completely irrelevent...

Bonj
January 6th 05, 01:36 AM
> There's really no need to replace the stock A64 cooler. The HS itself is
> very good (unlike coolers for the XP line). It works well with the stock
> fan, but I replaced the little 70x15mm fan with a 70->80mm fan adapter and
> installed an 80x25mm low speed fan just to make it quieter. Can't even
> hear it now. If you want max cooling just throw an 80mm high speed fan on
> it with a fan control.

No, I've discovered this since going to a few PC shops and finding out that
'other better quality ones' don't really exist in that way.... plus the
warranty is also 3 years so it makes sense to keep it intact.

>
>> This'll keep it running like a mutha. I'll then add an exhaust fan, and
>> monitor the cpu's temparature from within software and see if it's
>> within an acceptable range.
>
> You don't want to add an exhaust fan unless you first add 1 or 2 intake
> fans. In reality, all you shoukld need to add would be 1 intake fan.

I've got an intake fan I can harvest from my 32-bit machine that's already
got an extra fan (in line with the chip but on the opposite side of the case
and with a funky 'air tube' to help the air from the chip down the tube
straight out of the case) - so in my 64 machine I can have an intake fan at
the front and an exhaust fan at the back.

>The
> PSU already has an exhaust fan where it should be, at the top of case.

The PSU apparently has 'dual black fans'.

> Adding all exhaust fans will create stress, noise, and without an intake
> fan is just not good.

I'll only have one, near the bottom, I can see the logic to that.

Cheers

Bonj
January 6th 05, 01:38 AM
> I'm getting the distinct impression that you weren't looking for sound
> advice, but for someone to validate your own opinion.

Er -... yes, correct, thanks!

> Good luck with your
> $200 water cooling kit and your $20 PSU.
>

Well I haven't gone for any '$' cooling kit in the end, but I've heard more
sound advice telling me that there shouldn't be anything wrong with a cheap
power supply, than I have heard bad advice telling me to steer clear from
it... but cheers anyway.

Bonj
January 6th 05, 01:44 AM
You're not an IT person, you're a salesman!

"String" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Wrong on your cheep ram opinions as well. Cheap Ram is the number 2 cause
> of undiagnosable problems If it works for you that's good luck. You will
> not find any of that junk in top brands for a reason.
> Cheep ram comes out of low quality plants using thin cheap PCBs poor
> soldering metals cheap made chips or seconds from good manufactures. I
> also instituted a NO cheap ram policy at our shop and our return rate for
> PS and Ram went down 4000% labour at the shop made money with higher
> turnover. The number one ram maker counterfeit in Europe is hynix and 20%
> or more is fake (the Inquire or register last year).
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/182427.cms
> Cheap plants don't test chips just assemble and ship same as those ****
> poor crappie PS and don't care if they get a bad rep because they will
> have a new name next week..
> An so you know the GOOD as well as POOR PS are made in those 50 cents an
> hour plants so your overpriced labour theory is more bunk to defend poor
> power supplies as quality with low labour.
> You are a stubborn person like my brother never change your mind or give
> ground even in the face of a mountain of proof, 100 people tell him one
> thing but some how they are all wrong and he is right.
>
> Good luck Wes,
>
>
> "Wes Newell" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected] net...
>> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:40:08 +0000, String wrote:
>>
>>> Reminds me of the people who smoke and use the few examples of people
>>> who
>>> smoke and live to old age BUT the grave yard is full of those that make
>>> the bulk of smokers who did not.
>>
>> Not even close to what i said. I said the majority, somewhere between
>> 90-95% of the hundreds of inexpensive PSU's I've used run 5 years or
>> more.
>> The one I put in the company server in about 1995 is still running. It
>> cost about $20 then.
>>
>>> Cheap power supplies have a **** poor success rate but you have one
>>> that's a miracle magic ones deifying average you think its something to
>>> promote to everyone.
>>
>> I don't know where you get your success rate figures from, but I know
>> where mine come from, and the PSU works just as good as the expensive
>> ones. Granted I don't run extensive test to see if they actually put out
>> 100% of their ratings, but I don't care about that. At under $20 a pop
>> they work, and work well enough for any system I've built. If they
>> didn't,
>> I wouldn't use them in my machine and certainly not in machines we sell
>> and maintain at customers sites, since failures cost way more money in
>> time than than the price of an expensive PSU.
>>
>>> I was hired by a local shop to manage their tech shop, the money coming
>>> in was not equaling salaries out? I discovered the amount of power
>>> supply failures and problems associated with the same were taking half
>>> the day for most technicians. I instituted a NO cheap power supplies
>>> sold as stand alone or in cases. Those problems disappeared almost
>>> instantly freeing up our technicians to make money not diagnose $20 poor
>>> power supplies. Buy cheap buy twice, sell cheep pay too many
>>> technicians. (Ram as well) You stubbornly stick to promoting junk and if
>>> you made computers for my clients insisting using those **** poor power
>>> supplies you would not work for me.
>>
>> There's many reasons reasons you may have had so many failures. And if it
>> took one of the techs I supervise a half a day to replace a PSU, he'd be
>> looking for another job fast. Most PSU's can be changed in a matter of
>> mintues. Certainly less than 30, not counting travel time. The failure
>> rates you found could just as easily be contributed to the wrong size PSU
>> ion the first place. I've seen this problem many times. I'll be the first
>> to admit that cheap PSU's *may* be over rated. Simply buy one with that
>> in mind and you should be fine. And don't worry, I'm not looking for a
>> job.
>>
>> So I gather you don't like cheap ram either? That's all I use too.:-) A
>> 60ns ram chip is a 60ns ram chip. Doesn't matter who's circuit board you
>> stick it on as long as the ram is the same PN. I can see you waste a lot
>> of money, so you would most definately not work for me, at least not for
>> long. Want to know what I know about ram? I used to design, manufacture
>> and sell ram upgrades. yep, I designed them, layed them out, had the
>> boards manufactured, assembled, and distributed. So BS all the other
>> people you want. I know better.
>>
>>> Thought ? Do you work for the generic power supply consortium?
>>>
>> Nope, I don't work at all any more. Now don't get me wrong, there are
>> some
>> trashy PSU's out there. I bought 20 old AT PSU's for $2 each. They even
>> looked trashy. And they had a 20% failure rate within a few months. I
>> know
>> the others were still going after a couple of years. Needless to say, no
>> more were purchased. But the majoirty of cheap psu's ( just not that
>> cheap) work fine.
>>
>>> I wish you continued success with your power supplies, Eyes Open
>>>
>> Luck has nothing to do with it, but thanks.
>>
>> --
>> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
>> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm
>
>

Bonj
January 6th 05, 01:45 AM
Right... but you wouldn't get a BMW with a 3.6 litre engine and a Yugo with
a 5 litre engine...

"String" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> If you buy Cheap you buy twice!
> A fool and his money!
> You get what you pay for!
>
> ESC is now 100% PC-Chips (someone has to be at the bottom)
> Cheap power supplies are a BIG no no and most likely will cause problems
> you blame on everything else.
> If power supplies were cars your cheap 500w would be a Yugo I have a
> Enermax 365w if a car a BMW5, so we load them both with 4 people and
> luggage head on round trip coast to coast full throttle. What car will
> make it without needing new piston rods or burning oil?
>
> Remember how they used to advertise those little speakers at 120w (3w) or
> 200w for 12$
>
> "Bonj" > wrote in message ...
>> Hello
>> I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2
>> Skt 754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit
>> machine for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered
>> a fairly cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>>
>> Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is
>> the cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>>
>> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about
>> this configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra
>> fans/cooling systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>>
>>
>>
>
>

String
January 6th 05, 01:58 AM
I regret you have come to that assumption.
I have not promoted or recommend ANY! products whatsoever, simply a caution
to check products for quality before you part with your hard earned money
and not to take an over zealous persons word on some cheap junk being all
info you need.
TTFN


"Bonj" > wrote in message ...
> You're not an IT person, you're a salesman!
>
> "String" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Wrong on your cheep ram opinions as well. Cheap Ram is the number 2 cause
>> of undiagnosable problems If it works for you that's good luck. You will
>> not find any of that junk in top brands for a reason.
>> Cheep ram comes out of low quality plants using thin cheap PCBs poor
>> soldering metals cheap made chips or seconds from good manufactures. I
>> also instituted a NO cheap ram policy at our shop and our return rate for
>> PS and Ram went down 4000% labour at the shop made money with higher
>> turnover. The number one ram maker counterfeit in Europe is hynix and 20%
>> or more is fake (the Inquire or register last year).
>> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/182427.cms
>> Cheap plants don't test chips just assemble and ship same as those ****
>> poor crappie PS and don't care if they get a bad rep because they will
>> have a new name next week..
>> An so you know the GOOD as well as POOR PS are made in those 50 cents an
>> hour plants so your overpriced labour theory is more bunk to defend poor
>> power supplies as quality with low labour.
>> You are a stubborn person like my brother never change your mind or give
>> ground even in the face of a mountain of proof, 100 people tell him one
>> thing but some how they are all wrong and he is right.
>>
>> Good luck Wes,
>>
>>
>> "Wes Newell" > wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] net...
>>> On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:40:08 +0000, String wrote:
>>>
>>>> Reminds me of the people who smoke and use the few examples of people
>>>> who
>>>> smoke and live to old age BUT the grave yard is full of those that make
>>>> the bulk of smokers who did not.
>>>
>>> Not even close to what i said. I said the majority, somewhere between
>>> 90-95% of the hundreds of inexpensive PSU's I've used run 5 years or
>>> more.
>>> The one I put in the company server in about 1995 is still running. It
>>> cost about $20 then.
>>>
>>>> Cheap power supplies have a **** poor success rate but you have one
>>>> that's a miracle magic ones deifying average you think its something
>>>> to
>>>> promote to everyone.
>>>
>>> I don't know where you get your success rate figures from, but I know
>>> where mine come from, and the PSU works just as good as the expensive
>>> ones. Granted I don't run extensive test to see if they actually put out
>>> 100% of their ratings, but I don't care about that. At under $20 a pop
>>> they work, and work well enough for any system I've built. If they
>>> didn't,
>>> I wouldn't use them in my machine and certainly not in machines we sell
>>> and maintain at customers sites, since failures cost way more money in
>>> time than than the price of an expensive PSU.
>>>
>>>> I was hired by a local shop to manage their tech shop, the money coming
>>>> in was not equaling salaries out? I discovered the amount of power
>>>> supply failures and problems associated with the same were taking half
>>>> the day for most technicians. I instituted a NO cheap power supplies
>>>> sold as stand alone or in cases. Those problems disappeared almost
>>>> instantly freeing up our technicians to make money not diagnose $20
>>>> poor
>>>> power supplies. Buy cheap buy twice, sell cheep pay too many
>>>> technicians. (Ram as well) You stubbornly stick to promoting junk and
>>>> if
>>>> you made computers for my clients insisting using those **** poor power
>>>> supplies you would not work for me.
>>>
>>> There's many reasons reasons you may have had so many failures. And if
>>> it
>>> took one of the techs I supervise a half a day to replace a PSU, he'd be
>>> looking for another job fast. Most PSU's can be changed in a matter of
>>> mintues. Certainly less than 30, not counting travel time. The failure
>>> rates you found could just as easily be contributed to the wrong size
>>> PSU
>>> ion the first place. I've seen this problem many times. I'll be the
>>> first
>>> to admit that cheap PSU's *may* be over rated. Simply buy one with that
>>> in mind and you should be fine. And don't worry, I'm not looking for a
>>> job.
>>>
>>> So I gather you don't like cheap ram either? That's all I use too.:-) A
>>> 60ns ram chip is a 60ns ram chip. Doesn't matter who's circuit board you
>>> stick it on as long as the ram is the same PN. I can see you waste a lot
>>> of money, so you would most definately not work for me, at least not for
>>> long. Want to know what I know about ram? I used to design, manufacture
>>> and sell ram upgrades. yep, I designed them, layed them out, had the
>>> boards manufactured, assembled, and distributed. So BS all the other
>>> people you want. I know better.
>>>
>>>> Thought ? Do you work for the generic power supply consortium?
>>>>
>>> Nope, I don't work at all any more. Now don't get me wrong, there are
>>> some
>>> trashy PSU's out there. I bought 20 old AT PSU's for $2 each. They even
>>> looked trashy. And they had a 20% failure rate within a few months. I
>>> know
>>> the others were still going after a couple of years. Needless to say, no
>>> more were purchased. But the majoirty of cheap psu's ( just not that
>>> cheap) work fine.
>>>
>>>> I wish you continued success with your power supplies, Eyes Open
>>>>
>>> Luck has nothing to do with it, but thanks.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
>>> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm
>>
>>
>
>

Mitch Crane
January 6th 05, 03:19 AM
"Bonj" > wrote in :

> Well I haven't gone for any '$' cooling kit in the end, but I've heard
> more sound advice telling me that there shouldn't be anything wrong
> with a cheap power supply, than I have heard bad advice telling me to
> steer clear from it... but cheers anyway.

Ok. Good luck with that. Oh, and don't wear seatbelts. You're better off
being thrown clear of the accident.

Mac Cool
January 6th 05, 04:03 AM
Bonj:

>> No, you infer, I imply, but I wasn't implying anything. I don't know
>> if changing the power supply fixed his problem or not, I was
>> relating an experience about temperature.
>
> Yes, but that wasn't the subject, PSUs was... the original subject
> was supposed to be fans, but since you just mention temperature in
> general and just imply that it's due to the power supply without any
> mention of fans, but then renege that you said that when challenged,
> suggests that this experience of yours is completely irrelevent...

I won't waste energy bickering with you. You asked for advice and received
advice. Presumably you have your own money to spend and the final
decisions and consequences of, will be yours.
--
Mac Cool

Wes Newell
January 6th 05, 05:55 AM
On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:49:01 +0000, Mac Cool wrote:

>>> Wes Newell:
>>>> i'm just here to state for a fact that out of the hundreds of cheap
>>>> PSU's I've used the failure rates were no different than the expensive
>>>> ones.
>>>
>>> How do you know? Facts can be proven. Prove it.
>>
>> I know because I made all the computer component purchases for these
>> machines. And I give first hand testimony that it's true. Now you have 2
>> choices. Either prove I'm a liar or stick it in your ass. And yes, that
>> was a hostile statement. Can you tell the difference.
>
> The burden of proof fell on you when you characterized your information as
> fact.

There is no way to prove it other than my word. I could give you all the
service orders for every one of our customers (bring a semi) and let you
go through them for PSU replacements. But then you could claim I didn't
give you all of them. So what you get is sworned testimony that it is
fact, and contrary to what you think, you must prove otherwise. You could
have very well driven to the store last night and window shopped. Prove
it. Get the point of what you are asking. get real.


> I also want to point out that 'cheap' is really the wrong word, cheap is
> relative. There are inexpensive power supplies that are good quality.
> The generic PS are the ones that you should beware of, that are pumped
> out of factories from god knows where and the 'brand' may only exist for
> a production run. --
> Mac Cool

Yep, there's probably some crap ones out there, and there's probably some
crap expensive ones out there too.:-)

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Mitch Crane
January 6th 05, 06:02 AM
Wes Newell > wrote in
news:[email protected] .net:

> Yep, there's probably some crap ones out there, and there's probably some
> crap expensive ones out there too.:-)

There no profit in crap expensive ones unless maybe you built a reputation
making good ones first so people would pay more due to your great
reputation as a quality manufacturer and then you flooded the market with
crap. That wouldn't be a very smart business plan, though.

On the other hand, if you make some cheap crap people will buy it just
because it's cheap. And since there's no reputation to build (other than a
bad one) you can just keep changing your name.

Bonj
January 8th 05, 02:58 AM
Was joking.


String wrote:
> I regret you have come to that assumption.
> I have not promoted or recommend ANY! products whatsoever, simply a caution
> to check products for quality before you part with your hard earned money
> and not to take an over zealous persons word on some cheap junk being all
> info you need.
> TTFN
>
>
> "Bonj" > wrote in message ...
>
>>You're not an IT person, you're a salesman!
>>
>>"String" > wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]
>>
>>>Wrong on your cheep ram opinions as well. Cheap Ram is the number 2 cause
>>>of undiagnosable problems If it works for you that's good luck. You will
>>>not find any of that junk in top brands for a reason.
>>>Cheep ram comes out of low quality plants using thin cheap PCBs poor
>>>soldering metals cheap made chips or seconds from good manufactures. I
>>>also instituted a NO cheap ram policy at our shop and our return rate for
>>>PS and Ram went down 4000% labour at the shop made money with higher
>>>turnover. The number one ram maker counterfeit in Europe is hynix and 20%
>>>or more is fake (the Inquire or register last year).
>>>http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/182427.cms
>>>Cheap plants don't test chips just assemble and ship same as those ****
>>>poor crappie PS and don't care if they get a bad rep because they will
>>>have a new name next week..
>>>An so you know the GOOD as well as POOR PS are made in those 50 cents an
>>>hour plants so your overpriced labour theory is more bunk to defend poor
>>>power supplies as quality with low labour.
>>>You are a stubborn person like my brother never change your mind or give
>>>ground even in the face of a mountain of proof, 100 people tell him one
>>>thing but some how they are all wrong and he is right.
>>>
>>>Good luck Wes,
>>>
>>>
>>>"Wes Newell" > wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected] net...
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 23:40:08 +0000, String wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Reminds me of the people who smoke and use the few examples of people
>>>>>who
>>>>>smoke and live to old age BUT the grave yard is full of those that make
>>>>>the bulk of smokers who did not.
>>>>
>>>>Not even close to what i said. I said the majority, somewhere between
>>>>90-95% of the hundreds of inexpensive PSU's I've used run 5 years or
>>>>more.
>>>>The one I put in the company server in about 1995 is still running. It
>>>>cost about $20 then.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Cheap power supplies have a **** poor success rate but you have one
>>>>>that's a miracle magic ones deifying average you think its something
>>>>>to
>>>>>promote to everyone.
>>>>
>>>>I don't know where you get your success rate figures from, but I know
>>>>where mine come from, and the PSU works just as good as the expensive
>>>>ones. Granted I don't run extensive test to see if they actually put out
>>>>100% of their ratings, but I don't care about that. At under $20 a pop
>>>>they work, and work well enough for any system I've built. If they
>>>>didn't,
>>>>I wouldn't use them in my machine and certainly not in machines we sell
>>>>and maintain at customers sites, since failures cost way more money in
>>>>time than than the price of an expensive PSU.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I was hired by a local shop to manage their tech shop, the money coming
>>>>>in was not equaling salaries out? I discovered the amount of power
>>>>>supply failures and problems associated with the same were taking half
>>>>>the day for most technicians. I instituted a NO cheap power supplies
>>>>>sold as stand alone or in cases. Those problems disappeared almost
>>>>>instantly freeing up our technicians to make money not diagnose $20
>>>>>poor
>>>>>power supplies. Buy cheap buy twice, sell cheep pay too many
>>>>>technicians. (Ram as well) You stubbornly stick to promoting junk and
>>>>>if
>>>>>you made computers for my clients insisting using those **** poor power
>>>>>supplies you would not work for me.
>>>>
>>>>There's many reasons reasons you may have had so many failures. And if
>>>>it
>>>>took one of the techs I supervise a half a day to replace a PSU, he'd be
>>>>looking for another job fast. Most PSU's can be changed in a matter of
>>>>mintues. Certainly less than 30, not counting travel time. The failure
>>>>rates you found could just as easily be contributed to the wrong size
>>>>PSU
>>>>ion the first place. I've seen this problem many times. I'll be the
>>>>first
>>>>to admit that cheap PSU's *may* be over rated. Simply buy one with that
>>>>in mind and you should be fine. And don't worry, I'm not looking for a
>>>>job.
>>>>
>>>>So I gather you don't like cheap ram either? That's all I use too.:-) A
>>>>60ns ram chip is a 60ns ram chip. Doesn't matter who's circuit board you
>>>>stick it on as long as the ram is the same PN. I can see you waste a lot
>>>>of money, so you would most definately not work for me, at least not for
>>>>long. Want to know what I know about ram? I used to design, manufacture
>>>>and sell ram upgrades. yep, I designed them, layed them out, had the
>>>>boards manufactured, assembled, and distributed. So BS all the other
>>>>people you want. I know better.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Thought ? Do you work for the generic power supply consortium?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Nope, I don't work at all any more. Now don't get me wrong, there are
>>>>some
>>>>trashy PSU's out there. I bought 20 old AT PSU's for $2 each. They even
>>>>looked trashy. And they had a 20% failure rate within a few months. I
>>>>know
>>>>the others were still going after a couple of years. Needless to say, no
>>>>more were purchased. But the majoirty of cheap psu's ( just not that
>>>>cheap) work fine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I wish you continued success with your power supplies, Eyes Open
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Luck has nothing to do with it, but thanks.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
>>>>http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Bonj
January 8th 05, 11:40 PM
Bonj wrote:
> Hello
> I have ordered a AMD Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip and an Elite K8M800-M2 Skt
> 754 motherboard for it, with the intention of building up a 64-bit machine
> for general stuff like games, programming etc. I've also ordered a fairly
> cheap (but powerful - 500W) power supply off ebuyer for it.
>
> Apparently the chip comes with a heatsink and fan. The power supply is the
> cheapest 500W one on ebuyer, but it comes with "dual fans".
>
> Question really, is does anybody reckon I should have any worries about this
> configuration, and should I be thinking about getting any extra fans/cooling
> systems etc.? If so what sort, where to put them, etc.?
>
>
>

OK, I built it up, and it runs fine. I put one exhaust fan at the back
below the motherboard, and an intake fan at the front. I also drilled an
array of holes in the front of the case to act as an air intake grill to
maximise the effectiveness of the front fan. I built it up, and it
worked fine first time. The (cheap) PSU has got two good chunky fans,
and doesn't make too much noise. The only slight concern was that one of
the PSU's fans is sticking out it's so big, so all the wires are bunched
up against it, but I've sort of managed to ram them in between the
drives giving it a bit more space. But the BIOS claims the chip
temperature to be 41c, which is pretty good - it's using the stock
heatsink and fan.

Wes Newell
January 9th 05, 02:01 AM
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:40:06 +0000, Bonj wrote:

> But the BIOS claims the chip temperature to be 41c, which
> is pretty good - it's using the stock heatsink and fan.

Contrary to what most people think, the bios does put a considerable load
on the CPU. Check it at idle in the OS. I can reboot and watch the temps
rise from what they were with the OS running. They go up about 6-8C with
the bios running.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Bonj
January 10th 05, 01:35 AM
> Check it at idle in the OS


How?

Bonj
January 11th 05, 12:17 AM
Unfortunately, the motherboard CD, like a bitch, doesn't work.
"Ed" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:35:42 -0000, "Bonj" > wrote:
>
> >> Check it at idle in the OS
> >
> >
> >How?
> >
>
> Check your mobo CD for health monitoring software , or download one of
> the freebies like Motherboard Monitor, SpeedFan, etc...
>