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Post Replies Here Please
July 18th 04, 12:17 AM
http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html

I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.

Whatever.

Locutus
July 18th 04, 02:38 AM
"Post Replies Here Please" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>
> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>
> Whatever.

nothing wrong with that
Linux sucks so why support it

Post Replies Here Please
July 18th 04, 02:56 AM
>>>>> "Locutus" == Locutus > writes:

Locutus> "Post Replies Here Please" > wrote in
Locutus> message ...
>>
>>
>> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>>
>> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>>
>> Whatever.

Locutus> nothing wrong with that Linux sucks so why support it

Just an opinion ;-)

Locutus
July 18th 04, 03:37 AM
"Post Replies Here Please" > wrote in message ...
> >>>>> "Locutus" == Locutus > writes:
>
> Locutus> "Post Replies Here Please" > wrote in
> Locutus> message ...
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
> >>
> >> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
> >>
> >> Whatever.
>
> Locutus> nothing wrong with that Linux sucks so why support it
>
> Just an opinion ;-)

yeh I meant no offense to you sorry :(

just my opinion

Pseudo Namen
July 18th 04, 06:45 AM
I have owned 2 ASUS motherboards
1. ASUS P4B
2. ASUS A7N8X

Both ran Redhat and Mandrake very well.


"Post Replies Here Please" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>
> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>
> Whatever.

XS11E
July 18th 04, 07:21 AM
Post Replies Here Please > wrote in
:

>
>
> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>
> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.

It's very hard for me to understand the article. They talk about using
a K8V SE Deluxe motherboard which is what I have. Mandrake 10, 64bit
RC1 found and installed ALL my hardware including the on-board sound,
on-board NIC, etc.

FWIW, MB = ASUS K8V SE Deluxe with latest BIOS and AMD64 3400 chip.
Video card is ATI Radeon 7000. 1Gig (2 500MB sticks) of Fry's cheapest
3600 DDR RAM. Canon S900 Photo Printer, HP LaserJet 6L, Microtek V6upl
scanner connected via USB2 port. HP DVD Writer 200i, LG DVD ROM.

The on-board sound is SoundMax Integrated Digatal Audio and the LAN is
Marvell Yukon Gigabit Ethernet 10/100/1000 Base-T adaptor, Copper RJ-
45.

No problems with any of this. Conclusion, WTF is he talking about?

I have also installed Fedora 64bit which did have a problem with my
sound card, SuSE 64bit which had NO problems and Linspire (formerly
Lindows) which installed all the hardware with no problems.

Again, WTF is he talking about?

BTW, ASUS has NO need or requirement to supply drivers for ANY OS and
never has.

Windows XP is running on the same system using drivers supplied by the
manufacturers of the sound card and LAN, NOT drivers by ASUS. The
drivers that run the sound card and LAN in Linux are supplied by
various folks in the open source community or possibly by the same
manufacturers who supplied the drivers for Windows XP so.....

The total article is pure, unadulterated horsepucky from someone who
has no idea of what he/she/it is talking about.

Wes Newell
July 18th 04, 09:44 PM
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:38:51 -0400, Locutus wrote:


> "Post Replies Here Please" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>>
>> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>>
>> Whatever.
>
> nothing wrong with that
> Linux sucks so why support it

Really. Could you tell me why it sucks? And what OS should I be using, and
why?

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Post Replies Here Please
July 18th 04, 09:55 PM
>>>>> "Wes" == Wes Newell > writes:

Wes> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:38:51 -0400, Locutus wrote:
>> "Post Replies Here Please" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>>>
>>> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>>>
>>> Whatever.
>> nothing wrong with that Linux sucks so why support it

Wes> Really. Could you tell me why it sucks? And what OS should I be
Wes> using, and why?

Don't take the bait ;-)). Anyway all operating systems suck ;-)).

I use ______. Whatever it takes to get the job done.

Whatever.

Ben Pope
July 18th 04, 10:37 PM
Wes Newell wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:38:51 -0400, Locutus wrote:
>>
>> nothing wrong with that
>> Linux sucks so why support it
>
> Really. Could you tell me why it sucks? And what OS should I be using, and
> why?


It sucks because it takes a certain level of brain power to get it up and
running.

It sucks because for Average Joe, it's too complicated.

It's great because it free, powerful, stable, provides you with choice and
the community can, and do contribute in so many ways.

Ben
--
A7N8X FAQ: www.ben.pope.name/a7n8x_faq.html
Questions by email will likely be ignored, please use the newsgroups.
I'm not just a number. To many, I'm known as a String...

Marshall Law
July 19th 04, 07:48 AM
Wes Newell wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:38:51 -0400, Locutus wrote:
>
>
>> "Post Replies Here Please" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>>>
>>> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>>>
>>> Whatever.
>>
>> nothing wrong with that
>> Linux sucks so why support it
>
> Really. Could you tell me why it sucks? And what OS should I be using, and
> why?
>

Of course he won't be able to reply to you with any meaningful answers, that
would require the interuption of his blissful state of ignorance.

Michael Luescher
July 19th 04, 12:24 PM
XS11E wrote:

> Post Replies Here Please > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>
>>http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>>
>>I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>
>
> It's very hard for me to understand the article. They talk about using
> a K8V SE Deluxe motherboard which is what I have. Mandrake 10, 64bit
> RC1 found and installed ALL my hardware including the on-board sound,
> on-board NIC, etc.
>
> FWIW, MB = ASUS K8V SE Deluxe with latest BIOS and AMD64 3400 chip.
> Video card is ATI Radeon 7000. 1Gig (2 500MB sticks) of Fry's cheapest
> 3600 DDR RAM. Canon S900 Photo Printer, HP LaserJet 6L, Microtek V6upl
> scanner connected via USB2 port. HP DVD Writer 200i, LG DVD ROM.
>
> The on-board sound is SoundMax Integrated Digatal Audio and the LAN is
> Marvell Yukon Gigabit Ethernet 10/100/1000 Base-T adaptor, Copper RJ-
> 45.
>
> No problems with any of this. Conclusion, WTF is he talking about?
>
> I have also installed Fedora 64bit which did have a problem with my
> sound card, SuSE 64bit which had NO problems and Linspire (formerly
> Lindows) which installed all the hardware with no problems.
>
> Again, WTF is he talking about?
>
> BTW, ASUS has NO need or requirement to supply drivers for ANY OS and
> never has.
>
> Windows XP is running on the same system using drivers supplied by the
> manufacturers of the sound card and LAN, NOT drivers by ASUS. The
> drivers that run the sound card and LAN in Linux are supplied by
> various folks in the open source community or possibly by the same
> manufacturers who supplied the drivers for Windows XP so.....
>
> The total article is pure, unadulterated horsepucky from someone who
> has no idea of what he/she/it is talking about.
>
>
>
Exactly what I thought reading this crap.
I'm using a L5-series ASUS notebook, running debian 3.1 sarge (from
dvd). The only hardware not yet compatible is the WLAN-network adapter.
The author judges ASUS only because they're not T H E company changing
the world of computing.

Michael

XS11E
July 19th 04, 04:48 PM
"Ben Pope" > wrote in
:

> Wes Newell wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:38:51 -0400, Locutus wrote:
>>>
>>> nothing wrong with that
>>> Linux sucks so why support it
>>
>> Really. Could you tell me why it sucks? And what OS should I be
>> using, and why?
>
>
> It sucks because it takes a certain level of brain power to get it
> up and running.
>
> It sucks because for Average Joe, it's too complicated.
>
> It's great because it free, powerful, stable, provides you with
> choice and the community can, and do contribute in so many ways.

It sucks because some of the applications I need are available only for
Windows and/or MAC. I'm hoping that will change sometime in the future
and the many, many people who *need* to run Windows will be able to go
to Linux full time or, more likely, someday I'll finally decide to give
up my attempts at learning Linux.

Until then, I'm still quadruple booting.. <sigh>

Hellmark
July 20th 04, 05:56 AM
XS11E's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his body
were:
> It sucks because some of the applications I need are available only for
> Windows and/or MAC. I'm hoping that will change sometime in the future
> and the many, many people who *need* to run Windows will be able to go
> to Linux full time or, more likely, someday I'll finally decide to give
> up my attempts at learning Linux.

Have you tried Wine, Cedega (formally WineX), or Crossover Office? And do
they have a decent Open Source alternative? Right now I have two apps that
aren't linux friendly by the last two measures, 3d Studio Max 3.1 (yeah,
its old but its what I could afford and dont really like the new versions
as much), and Poser 4. 3dsmax craps out before it can get the loading
splash screen up if I try with a Windows API of some sort (Wine, etc), and
Poser loads, but the on screen graphical controls are invisible (but
everything else, including the viewport, works).

XS11E
July 20th 04, 03:48 PM
Hellmark > wrote in
news:[email protected]****SPAM .net:

> XS11E's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his
> body were:
>> It sucks because some of the applications I need are available
>> only for Windows and/or MAC. I'm hoping that will change
>> sometime in the future and the many, many people who *need* to
>> run Windows will be able to go to Linux full time or, more
>> likely, someday I'll finally decide to give up my attempts at
>> learning Linux.
>
> Have you tried Wine, Cedega (formally WineX), or Crossover Office?

Yes.

General Schvantzkoph
July 20th 04, 03:57 PM
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:17:28 -0500, Post Replies Here Please wrote:

>
>
> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>
> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>
> Whatever.

The bigger issue is that Taiwanese companies are focused entirely on cost,
quality and customer support take a back seat. A couple of years ago I
developed a file server for a medium sized (~$500M) company. Dealing with
Supermicro or 3Ware, which are Silicon Valley based, was easy. If there
was a problem they did their best to address it. Dealing with Taiwan based
companies was impossible, they simply didn't have the capacity or the
inclination to respond to even a $500M company so you can imagine how bad
the service for smaller OEMs must be like. Unfortunately SuperMicro
doesn't make Opteron boards.

Pseudo Namen
July 20th 04, 04:04 PM
"General Schvantzkoph" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:17:28 -0500, Post Replies Here Please wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>>
>> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>>
>> Whatever.
>
> The bigger issue is that Taiwanese companies are focused entirely on cost,
> quality and customer support take a back seat. A couple of years ago I
> developed a file server for a medium sized (~$500M) company. Dealing with
> Supermicro or 3Ware, which are Silicon Valley based, was easy. If there
> was a problem they did their best to address it. Dealing with Taiwan based
> companies was impossible, they simply didn't have the capacity or the
> inclination to respond to even a $500M company so you can imagine how bad
> the service for smaller OEMs must be like. Unfortunately SuperMicro
> doesn't make Opteron boards.
>
>

I believe Supermicro doesn't make any AMD based motherboards.

Michael Luescher
July 20th 04, 04:07 PM
XS11E wrote:
> Hellmark > wrote in
> news:[email protected]****SPAM .net:
>
>
>>XS11E's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his
>>body were:
>>
>>>It sucks because some of the applications I need are available
>>>only for Windows and/or MAC. I'm hoping that will change
>>>sometime in the future and the many, many people who *need* to
>>>run Windows will be able to go to Linux full time or, more
>>>likely, someday I'll finally decide to give up my attempts at
>>>learning Linux.
>>
>>Have you tried Wine, Cedega (formally WineX), or Crossover Office?
>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>

1. Tell me the file type (not the application, because there's no use
using these crap-apps like microsoft office, adobde photoshop/cinemaXd,
internet explorer when there are openoffice.org, gimp/blender, mozilla
firefox doing the better work for you with the same file types) not
supported by any GNU/Linux ported application
2. I do not hope that there is going to be a microsoft office for linux,
but I do hope openoffice.org for win to be used more often.

michael

Wes Newell
July 20th 04, 09:33 PM
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:48:14 -0700, XS11E wrote:

> Hellmark > wrote in
> news:[email protected]****SPAM .net:
>
>> XS11E's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his
>> body were:
>>> It sucks because some of the applications I need are available
>>> only for Windows and/or MAC. I'm hoping that will change
>>> sometime in the future and the many, many people who *need* to
>>> run Windows will be able to go to Linux full time or, more
>>> likely, someday I'll finally decide to give up my attempts at
>>> learning Linux.
>>
>> Have you tried Wine, Cedega (formally WineX), or Crossover Office?
>
> Yes.

What type apps are you talking about? Are they custom to support a
proprietary product? if so, you may never see a Linux version. You also
may never see a version for the next version of windows. But, AFAIK, there
are linux equivalants of almost any win apps. Do you want to share the
name of the app you are talking about. If not, then you might as well drop
the subject. Here's a list (although certainly not complete) of linux to
win equivalant apps.

http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Pseudo Namen
July 20th 04, 10:30 PM
"Wes Newell" > wrote in message
news:[email protected] .net...
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 07:48:14 -0700, XS11E wrote:
>
>> Hellmark > wrote in
>> news:[email protected]****SPAM .net:
>>
>>> XS11E's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his
>>> body were:
>>>> It sucks because some of the applications I need are available
>>>> only for Windows and/or MAC. I'm hoping that will change
>>>> sometime in the future and the many, many people who *need* to
>>>> run Windows will be able to go to Linux full time or, more
>>>> likely, someday I'll finally decide to give up my attempts at
>>>> learning Linux.
>>>
>>> Have you tried Wine, Cedega (formally WineX), or Crossover Office?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> What type apps are you talking about? Are they custom to support a
> proprietary product? if so, you may never see a Linux version. You also
> may never see a version for the next version of windows. But, AFAIK, there
> are linux equivalants of almost any win apps. Do you want to share the
> name of the app you are talking about. If not, then you might as well drop
> the subject. Here's a list (although certainly not complete) of linux to
> win equivalant apps.
>
> http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml
>
> --
> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

The biggest problem I have with using Linux only is GAMES.
1. The Sims
2. Sim City 4
3. Sacrifice
4. Diblo 2
5. Dungeon Siege
6. Command & Conquer: Generals
7. Command & Conquer: Red Alert
8. Hitman 2
9. Tomb Raider:The Angel Of Darness
10. Evolva
11. Age Of Empires
12. Flight Simulater 2004
13. Raven Shield
14. Warcraft 3

Just to name a few. LOL

Hellmark
July 20th 04, 11:44 PM
Pseudo Namen's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his
body were:
> The biggest problem I have with using Linux only is GAMES.
> 1. The Sims

There is a linux port

> 2. Sim City 4

has a linux port

> 6. Command & Conquer: Generals

Hmm, cant remember if this one can run with the Wines. I know after EA
bought out Eastwood, they started putting in antidebugger code, which
messes with Wine.

> 7. Command & Conquer: Red Alert
> 11. Age Of Empires

Runs with Cedega

> 4. Diblo 2

One of the games that is supposed to work flawlessly under Wine

> 12. Flight Simulater 2004

Can't run under Wine, cedega or Crossover Office

> 8. Hitman 2

First one works, but this one has some conflicts that make it not run.
Think the anti-debugger issue

> 3. Sacrifice

Runs under Cedega

> 5. Dungeon Siege

Has some issues, but runs

> 9. Tomb Raider:The Angel Of Darness

This one doesnt install, because the installer doesnt want to switch disks
under Wine, but I'm not sure if a preexisting install would work

> 10. Evolva

Installs but can't be run

> 13. Raven Shield

Installs, runs, but has some problems with things like key configuration,
etc. Since its based off UT2003, shouldnt be that much longer till its
run able I dont think.

> 14. Warcraft 3

Again one of the ones that works flawlessly under cedega.

What other games do you have questions on? Just because you think they
dont have a native linux port, doesnt mean they won't run (plus as I said,
a couple do have native ports).

XS11E
July 21st 04, 12:17 AM
Wes Newell > wrote in
news:[email protected] .net:

> What type apps are you talking about?

Quicken, VersaCheck and TurboTax or TaxCut.

There are NO Linux equivalents, there aren't even any Windows
equivalents. For example, Microsoft Money, Gnucash and Moneydance all
say they will import Quicken files, they all lie. Not my files nor
anyone else's files that are complex, I'm not the only one who's tried.

Quicken will "sorta" run under Crossover Office but "sorta" does't cut
it.

VersaCheck will run under Wine but it won't print. The ONLY function
of VersaCheck is to print so.... ????

There's other ways of printing checks, I can download MICR fonts and
probably create some way to do it, but until Quicken runs under Linux
I'll be running Windows. I don't play games, download music, surf the
web, etc. My PC is for financial use only and Quicken is why it
exists, w/o the three programs above I wouldn't even need a computer!
Dang, wouldn't that be nice? ;-)

Pseudo Namen
July 21st 04, 02:44 AM
LOL. They don't work as flawsless as they do in Windows XP though,
especially with DirectX settings turned all the way up.

Remember, the programs you talk about are emulators, and thus cannot
compete with Windows Native as far as speed, and high color and textures
etc... I buy games for the graphics, speed and sound. I don't know of one
game that works with EAX4 in Linux.
Just because you can get something to work, doesn't mean it works as well.
:o)


"Hellmark" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]****SPA M.net...
> Pseudo Namen's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his
> body were:
>> The biggest problem I have with using Linux only is GAMES.
>> 1. The Sims
>
> There is a linux port
>
>> 2. Sim City 4
>
> has a linux port
>
>> 6. Command & Conquer: Generals
>
> Hmm, cant remember if this one can run with the Wines. I know after EA
> bought out Eastwood, they started putting in antidebugger code, which
> messes with Wine.
>
>> 7. Command & Conquer: Red Alert
>> 11. Age Of Empires
>
> Runs with Cedega
>
>> 4. Diblo 2
>
> One of the games that is supposed to work flawlessly under Wine
>
>> 12. Flight Simulater 2004
>
> Can't run under Wine, cedega or Crossover Office
>
>> 8. Hitman 2
>
> First one works, but this one has some conflicts that make it not run.
> Think the anti-debugger issue
>
>> 3. Sacrifice
>
> Runs under Cedega
>
>> 5. Dungeon Siege
>
> Has some issues, but runs
>
>> 9. Tomb Raider:The Angel Of Darness
>
> This one doesnt install, because the installer doesnt want to switch disks
> under Wine, but I'm not sure if a preexisting install would work
>
>> 10. Evolva
>
> Installs but can't be run
>
>> 13. Raven Shield
>
> Installs, runs, but has some problems with things like key configuration,
> etc. Since its based off UT2003, shouldnt be that much longer till its
> run able I dont think.
>
>> 14. Warcraft 3
>
> Again one of the ones that works flawlessly under cedega.
>
> What other games do you have questions on? Just because you think they
> dont have a native linux port, doesnt mean they won't run (plus as I said,
> a couple do have native ports).

Net Resident
July 21st 04, 05:14 AM
Pseudo Namen wrote:
> LOL. They don't work as flawsless as they do in Windows XP though,
> especially with DirectX settings turned all the way up.
>
> Remember, the programs you talk about are emulators, and thus cannot
> compete with Windows Native as far as speed, and high color and
> textures etc... I buy games for the graphics, speed and sound. I
> don't know of one game that works with EAX4 in Linux.
> Just because you can get something to work, doesn't mean it works as
> well.
>> o)
>

#1 Learn how to post on Usenet by not top posting.
#2 WINE and WINEX are not emulators, they are compatability layers. There is
a world of difference between the two systems.
#3 Some games actually play better on a GNU/Linux platform, example
Morrowind.
#4 Being happy that you are nearly forced to game on a propietary system is
retarded. Do you like giving extra money to those that want to insure that
you are further locked in to using their products only? Talk about a vicious
circle...
#5 Companies licensing source out for porting is a win/win/win.

Pseudo Namen
July 21st 04, 05:26 AM
"Net Resident" > wrote in message
...
> Pseudo Namen wrote:
>> LOL. They don't work as flawsless as they do in Windows XP though,
>> especially with DirectX settings turned all the way up.
>>
>> Remember, the programs you talk about are emulators, and thus cannot
>> compete with Windows Native as far as speed, and high color and
>> textures etc... I buy games for the graphics, speed and sound. I
>> don't know of one game that works with EAX4 in Linux.
>> Just because you can get something to work, doesn't mean it works as
>> well.
>>> o)
>>
>
> #1 Learn how to post on Usenet by not top posting.
> #2 WINE and WINEX are not emulators, they are compatability layers. There
> is
> a world of difference between the two systems.
> #3 Some games actually play better on a GNU/Linux platform, example
> Morrowind.
> #4 Being happy that you are nearly forced to game on a propietary system
> is
> retarded. Do you like giving extra money to those that want to insure that
> you are further locked in to using their products only? Talk about a
> vicious
> circle...
> #5 Companies licensing source out for porting is a win/win/win.
>
>

Read my other posts. Most of them are NOT top posted.
No matter what you call them, they are NOT native Windows
NO games that are native Windows games work better in LINUX, that is pure
bull****.
You are the one being retarded.
And finally, I am not a company. I am an individual.

Now learn some manners.

Ed Light
July 21st 04, 06:59 AM
"Net Resident" > wrote
> #1 Learn how to post on Usenet by not top posting.
That's a debated issue. Personally I prefer top posts when they don't have
to answer a specific sentence of paragraph.


--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at

Thanks, robots.

Wes Newell
July 21st 04, 07:36 AM
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:30:01 -0500, Pseudo Namen wrote:

> The biggest problem I have with using Linux only is GAMES.
> 1. The Sims
> 2. Sim City 4
> 3. Sacrifice
> 4. Diblo 2
> 5. Dungeon Siege
> 6. Command & Conquer: Generals
> 7. Command & Conquer: Red Alert
> 8. Hitman 2
> 9. Tomb Raider:The Angel Of Darness
> 10. Evolva
> 11. Age Of Empires
> 12. Flight Simulater 2004
> 13. Raven Shield
> 14. Warcraft 3
>
> Just to name a few. LOL

well, if you use your machine to play commercial games, then by all
means you should stay with Windows. Personally, I've never seen any of
these games, and probably never will. There's probably about 50 games
that comes with the linux distro I use. I've been using Linux for over 3
years now and still have only run a few of these.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Wes Newell
July 21st 04, 08:09 AM
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:17:07 -0700, XS11E wrote:

> Wes Newell > wrote in
> news:[email protected] .net:
>
>> What type apps are you talking about?
>
> Quicken, VersaCheck and TurboTax or TaxCut.
>
> There are NO Linux equivalents, there aren't even any Windows
> equivalents. For example, Microsoft Money, Gnucash and Moneydance all
> say they will import Quicken files, they all lie. Not my files nor
> anyone else's files that are complex, I'm not the only one who's tried.
>
Well, for Quicken there are 5 Linux programs listed as equivalents. I
don't use any of these personal finance managers, but I've heard of people
importing quicken files into gnucash. But you seem to be saying it's not
evuivalent simple because they use a different storage format.

> Quicken will "sorta" run under Crossover Office but "sorta" does't cut
> it.
>
So use a native program like gnucash.

> VersaCheck will run under Wine but it won't print. The ONLY function of
> VersaCheck is to print so.... ????
>
I don't use this stuff either, but found a linux app called Freecheck in
a matter of seconds.

> There's other ways of printing checks, I can download MICR fonts and
> probably create some way to do it, but until Quicken runs under Linux
> I'll be running Windows. I don't play games, download music, surf the
> web, etc. My PC is for financial use only and Quicken is why it exists,
> w/o the three programs above I wouldn't even need a computer! Dang,
> wouldn't that be nice? ;-)

Well then you should definately stay with Windows then if it does what you
want and you are happy with it. But to say Linux sucks just because you
can't move windows quicken files over to it is just a little on the absurd
side don't you think.:-)

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.htm

Hellmark
July 21st 04, 08:34 AM
Pseudo Namen's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his
body were:

> LOL. They don't work as flawsless as they do in Windows XP though,
> especially with DirectX settings turned all the way up.

Some do, but you're right, most still have a few quirks.

> Remember, the programs you talk about are emulators, and thus cannot
> compete with Windows Native as far as speed, and high color and textures
> etc... I buy games for the graphics, speed and sound. I don't know of one
> game that works with EAX4 in Linux.
> Just because you can get something to work, doesn't mean it works as well.

No, they are not. Emulates is software that takes place of a hardware
component. Wine and its offshoots add an API layer for the execution of
non native software. Even if you look at what the acronym means, you'd
know "Wine Is Not an Emulator" (thats straight from the wine webpage).
I've had stuff run under Wine just as fast as it does under Windows. Learn
before commenting.

Hellmark
July 21st 04, 08:38 AM
Pseudo Namen's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his
body were:
> Read my other posts. Most of them are NOT top posted.

So? Because you normally do it one way, doesnt mean that you didnt **** up
that time.

> No matter what you call them, they are NOT native Windows

So?

> NO games that are native Windows games work better in LINUX, that is pure
> bull****.

Go believe your FUD. I'm a game developer for a small company, and I know
that if you dont sloppily code your app, it will run about the same. I
have seen a few rare instances where non native beat out native, but thats
because shortcuts were used.

Hellmark
July 21st 04, 08:40 AM
Ed Light's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his body
were:
> "Net Resident" > wrote
>> #1 Learn how to post on Usenet by not top posting.
> That's a debated issue. Personally I prefer top posts when they don't have
> to answer a specific sentence of paragraph.

I inline/bottom post. That way, if someone doesnt get the previous posts
(which happens on usenet), they can still have an idea of whats going on,
plus I can coment on each individual part I want to. I dont have to lump
all my things together

radical_edward
July 21st 04, 10:58 AM
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:14:14 GMT, "Net Resident" >
wrote:


>#1 Learn how to post on Usenet by not top posting.


BZZZZT. WRONG ANSWER.

People can post where ever they want.

Bottom post Nazis need to wake up and smell the roses.

The year is 2004 not 1994.

And don't even think of starting in on that Nazi bull****.

That's why I put it in here ;)

Post Replies Here Please
July 21st 04, 04:11 PM
What is wrong with top posting? If the article is very long top
posting is better when the posting comes up in google search engine.
You have to hit another button to read the post for very long posts.
So with very long articles if you have a short reponse top posting is
actually better in my opinion. Whatever. I guess we should all vote
for the same person also.

Later,

Alan

>>>>> "Net" == Net Resident > writes:

Net> Pseudo Namen wrote:
>> LOL. They don't work as flawsless as they do in Windows XP though,
>> especially with DirectX settings turned all the way up.
>>
>> Remember, the programs you talk about are emulators, and thus
>> cannot compete with Windows Native as far as speed, and high color
>> and textures etc... I buy games for the graphics, speed and sound.
>> I don't know of one game that works with EAX4 in Linux. Just
>> because you can get something to work, doesn't mean it works as
>> well.
>>> o)
>>

Net> #1 Learn how to post on Usenet by not top posting. #2 WINE and
Net> WINEX are not emulators, they are compatability layers. There is
Net> a world of difference between the two systems. #3 Some games
Net> actually play better on a GNU/Linux platform, example Morrowind.
Net> #4 Being happy that you are nearly forced to game on a
Net> propietary system is retarded. Do you like giving extra money to
Net> those that want to insure that you are further locked in to
Net> using their products only? Talk about a vicious circle... #5
Net> Companies licensing source out for porting is a win/win/win.

XS11E
July 21st 04, 05:13 PM
Wes Newell > wrote in
news:[email protected] .net:

> On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:17:07 -0700, XS11E wrote:
>
>> Wes Newell > wrote in
>> news:[email protected] .net:
>>
>>> What type apps are you talking about?
>>
>> Quicken, VersaCheck and TurboTax or TaxCut.
>>
>> There are NO Linux equivalents, there aren't even any Windows
>> equivalents. For example, Microsoft Money, Gnucash and
>> Moneydance all say they will import Quicken files, they all lie.
>> Not my files nor anyone else's files that are complex, I'm not
>> the only one who's tried.
>>
> Well, for Quicken there are 5 Linux programs listed as
> equivalents.

But they're not. They won't do all the things that I use Quicken to do
and they won't import Quicken files although they all claim to do so.

> I don't use any of these personal finance managers,
> but I've heard of people importing quicken files into gnucash. But
> you seem to be saying it's not evuivalent simple because they use
> a different storage format.

Nope, I'm saying it's not equivalent because it doesn't have the
features and it will NOT import complex files. It might very well work
if you use Quicken to track your checkbook but if you have many
accounts with multiple banks and brokerage houses, it just doesn't
work. The import is done but the files imported are totally
incomprehensible. BTDT.

>> Quicken will "sorta" run under Crossover Office but "sorta"
>> does't cut it.
>>
> So use a native program like gnucash.

Which I've already tried to do and proved it won't do the job.

>> VersaCheck will run under Wine but it won't print. The ONLY
>> function of VersaCheck is to print so.... ????
>>
> I don't use this stuff either, but found a linux app called
> Freecheck in a matter of seconds.

Thanks, I'll take a look at that.

> Well then you should definately stay with Windows then if it does
> what you want and you are happy with it. But to say Linux sucks
> just because you can't move windows quicken files over to it is
> just a little on the absurd side don't you think.:-)

Nope. I expect software to do what I need done, if it does, I use it.
If not, it's not usable for me.

Not usable for me = Sucks

Clear enough?

I'm still playing with Linux and am working at importing Quicken files
into Moneydance or some other program. My hope is that if I import one
single account at a time, that may work properly but we're talking
about many hours of work to do that and the time isn't available so
far.

General Schvantzkoph
July 21st 04, 05:25 PM
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:04:49 -0500, Pseudo Namen wrote:

>
> "General Schvantzkoph" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:17:28 -0500, Post Replies Here Please wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux04/Asus_Sucks_Story-01.html
>>>
>>> I'm a big fan of ASUS and was not aware of this.
>>>
>>> Whatever.
>>
>> The bigger issue is that Taiwanese companies are focused entirely on cost,
>> quality and customer support take a back seat. A couple of years ago I
>> developed a file server for a medium sized (~$500M) company. Dealing with
>> Supermicro or 3Ware, which are Silicon Valley based, was easy. If there
>> was a problem they did their best to address it. Dealing with Taiwan based
>> companies was impossible, they simply didn't have the capacity or the
>> inclination to respond to even a $500M company so you can imagine how bad
>> the service for smaller OEMs must be like. Unfortunately SuperMicro
>> doesn't make Opteron boards.
>>
>>
>
> I believe Supermicro doesn't make any AMD based motherboards.

That's right they are strictly an Intel house. It's understandable that
they didn't make Athlon boards. There are no industrial quality chipsets
for Athlons, all of their Xeon boards use Intel or Broadcom chipsets. They
don't use VIA or SIS which is what's available for AMD. They were thinking
about offering Opteron boards (see link below) but it hasn't happened yet.
With Intel's release of their iAMD processors it's possible that
SuperMicro has dropped their plans for Opteron boards.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20030409184718.html

Hellmark
July 21st 04, 05:30 PM
Post Replies Here Please's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged
through his body were:
> What is wrong with top posting? If the article is very long top
> posting is better when the posting comes up in google search engine.
> You have to hit another button to read the post for very long posts.
> So with very long articles if you have a short reponse top posting is
> actually better in my opinion. Whatever. I guess we should all vote
> for the same person also.

the entire idea is that you're not supposed to let the quoted text become
unrulely. If you have a short response, quote only the valid part, as I
just did.

Net Resident
July 21st 04, 06:09 PM
radical_edward wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:14:14 GMT, "Net Resident" >
> wrote:
>
>
>> #1 Learn how to post on Usenet by not top posting.
>
>
> BZZZZT. WRONG ANSWER.
>
> People can post where ever they want.
>
> Bottom post Nazis need to wake up and smell the roses.
>
> The year is 2004 not 1994.
>
> And don't even think of starting in on that Nazi bull****.
>
> That's why I put it in here ;)

Don't be surprised when you suddenly realize one day that no one is
responding to your posts because they all killfile'd you for being a
stubbornly wrong Usenet newbie. Speaking of newbies, learn what the Godwin
doctrine is.

Hellmark
July 21st 04, 07:49 PM
Net Resident's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through his
body were:
> Don't be surprised when you suddenly realize one day that no one is
> responding to your posts because they all killfile'd you for being a
> stubbornly wrong Usenet newbie. Speaking of newbies, learn what the Godwin
> doctrine is.

Yup, those who invoke Godwin's law are only lashing out in desparation.

General Schvantzkoph
July 21st 04, 07:52 PM
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:17:07 -0700, XS11E wrote:

> Wes Newell > wrote in
> news:[email protected] .net:
>
>> What type apps are you talking about?
>
> Quicken, VersaCheck and TurboTax or TaxCut.
>
> There are NO Linux equivalents, there aren't even any Windows
> equivalents. For example, Microsoft Money, Gnucash and Moneydance all
> say they will import Quicken files, they all lie. Not my files nor
> anyone else's files that are complex, I'm not the only one who's tried.
>
> Quicken will "sorta" run under Crossover Office but "sorta" does't cut
> it.
>
> VersaCheck will run under Wine but it won't print. The ONLY function
> of VersaCheck is to print so.... ????
>
> There's other ways of printing checks, I can download MICR fonts and
> probably create some way to do it, but until Quicken runs under Linux
> I'll be running Windows. I don't play games, download music, surf the
> web, etc. My PC is for financial use only and Quicken is why it
> exists, w/o the three programs above I wouldn't even need a computer!
> Dang, wouldn't that be nice? ;-)

I use Win4Lin to run Quicken, Quickbooks and TaxCut (I used TurboTax in
the past and that worked fine on Win4Lin also). I do all of my serious
work using Linux applications but for desktop applications where there is
no Linux app of comparable quality I use Windows apps under Win4Lin.

XS11E
July 21st 04, 08:13 PM
General Schvantzkoph > wrote in
:

> I use Win4Lin to run Quicken, Quickbooks and TaxCut (I used
> TurboTax in the past and that worked fine on Win4Lin also). I do
> all of my serious work using Linux applications but for desktop
> applications where there is no Linux app of comparable quality I
> use Windows apps under Win4Lin.

I've heard of it and investigated it a little bit and I think it will
work..... but if I need to install Windows to run these apps, why
shouldn't I just run Windows?

I don't quite understand Win4Lin? What I do understand is that it's
$89.95 and I already have Windows so I don't see where I'd gain by
using it?

One more problem, it supports Windows 9x which I haven't run for many
many years, I'm not sure I have any of the CDs now, I'd have to check.
I do have WindowsNT 4.0, Windows2000 and WindowsXP but I can't find any
evidence it will work with them?

General Schvantzkoph
July 21st 04, 09:28 PM
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:13:30 -0700, XS11E wrote:

> General Schvantzkoph > wrote in
> :
>
>> I use Win4Lin to run Quicken, Quickbooks and TaxCut (I used
>> TurboTax in the past and that worked fine on Win4Lin also). I do
>> all of my serious work using Linux applications but for desktop
>> applications where there is no Linux app of comparable quality I
>> use Windows apps under Win4Lin.
>
> I've heard of it and investigated it a little bit and I think it will
> work..... but if I need to install Windows to run these apps, why
> shouldn't I just run Windows?
>
> I don't quite understand Win4Lin? What I do understand is that it's
> $89.95 and I already have Windows so I don't see where I'd gain by
> using it?
>
> One more problem, it supports Windows 9x which I haven't run for many
> many years, I'm not sure I have any of the CDs now, I'd have to check.
> I do have WindowsNT 4.0, Windows2000 and WindowsXP but I can't find any
> evidence it will work with them?

It will only work with Win9x although a version that supports 2K and XP is
supposedly coming.

Win4Lin saves you from dual booting and it allows you to run Windows
applications simultaneously with Linux apps. You can even cut and paste
between Windows and Linux applications. Also it's easy to replicate and
backup your Windows environment, all you have to do is rsync your win
directory to another machine.

If all you want to do is run desktop applications then you are probably
better off sticking with a native WinXP environment. I use Linux because
it's an at least an order of magnitude more productive for me then
Windows. I can run on multiple machines simultaneously both on my local
LAN and, through secure shell, across the internet, you can't do that with
Windows. My workstation is an old 500MHz PIII, my compute servers are a
dual 2.66 Xeon and dual 1G PIII, and I use an old 450MHz PII as my CVS
server. If I were running XP I wouldn't be able to divide the load that
way and I wouldn't be able to use a 500MHz machine as my main workstation.
Also I'd be forced to use a GUI for most things which is horribly
ineffecient compared to csh scripts. The stability and lack of viruses is
just cream on top of the cake. I also like Galeon much better than any
browser that's available for Windows (although now that Firefox is out the
gap has been narrowed) and Evolution is at least as good as any e-mail
program that's available for Windows. Gnumeric meets my spreadsheet needs
every bit as well as Excel. However Open Office sucks compared to Word and
FrameMaker, the Linux PDF writer isn't in the same league with Acrobat,
and the Linux financial applications can't compete with Quicken and
Quickbooks. So for things I use Win4Lin.

For power users Linux has huge advantages because of it's network
computing capability, it's expandability and it's configurability but it's
not a complete solution because of it's weakness in Word processing and
Financial Application space. Win4Lin fills that gap. However if you don't
need Linux's power then it would be silly to use Linux + Win4Lin, you
should just stick with XP.

XS11E
July 22nd 04, 01:12 AM
General Schvantzkoph > wrote in
:

> However if you don't need Linux's power then it would be
> silly to use Linux + Win4Lin, you should just stick with XP.

You're probably right, I'll very likely end my Linux experiment soon.

Post Replies Here Please
July 22nd 04, 01:48 AM
>>>>> "Hellmark" == Hellmark > writes:

Hellmark> Post Replies Here Please's last words before the Sword of
Hellmark> Azrial plunged through his body were:
>> What is wrong with top posting? If the article is very long top
>> posting is better when the posting comes up in google search
>> engine. You have to hit another button to read the post for very
>> long posts. So with very long articles if you have a short reponse
>> top posting is actually better in my opinion. Whatever. I guess we
>> should all vote for the same person also.

Hellmark> the entire idea is that you're not supposed to let the
Hellmark> quoted text become unrulely. If you have a short response,
Hellmark> quote only the valid part, as I just did.

Works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. I wish one rule could handle
all situations. For extremely long posts that are not reduced in size
bottom posting is a pain, especially when using the search engine at
google for groups.

Whatever to each his/her own!

Good luck,

Alan

Hellmark
July 22nd 04, 02:00 AM
Post Replies Here Please's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged
through his body were:
> Works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. I wish one rule could handle
> all situations. For extremely long posts that are not reduced in size
> bottom posting is a pain, especially when using the search engine at
> google for groups.

Well, thats why most people who bottom post trim.

General Schvantzkoph
July 22nd 04, 03:24 AM
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:12:17 -0700, XS11E wrote:

> General Schvantzkoph > wrote in
> :
>
>> However if you don't need Linux's power then it would be
>> silly to use Linux + Win4Lin, you should just stick with XP.
>
> You're probably right, I'll very likely end my Linux experiment soon.

It wasn't my intention to discourage you from using Linux I was only
pointing out that for the typical non-techno savvy user there wasn't a
compelling reason to switch. However for someone who is willing to put in
some work and isn't afraid of technology it offers a much more rewarding
experience than Windows. It's infinitely flexible in a way that Windows
can never be so you can adapt it to your workstyle. The major
distributions come with thousands of applications so you have the chance
to try out all sorts of things. It's constantly improving at a rate that
far exceeds anything that you are like to see from the Microsoft. And you
are free to do with it what you want, putting it on as many machines as
you want, putting multiple distributions on the same machine so you can
try them all out. To sum up, Linux's strengths are also it's weaknesses.
For the hacker personality type who wants to have complete control over
his computing environment and who wants the latest and greatest
everything, Linux is a dream. For the non-technical user who gets easily
confused, Linux would be a nightmare.

Post Replies Here Please
July 22nd 04, 02:22 PM
>>>>> "Hellmark" == Hellmark > writes:

Hellmark> Post Replies Here Please's last words before the Sword of
Hellmark> Azrial plunged through his body were:
>> Works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. I wish one rule could
>> handle all situations. For extremely long posts that are not
>> reduced in size bottom posting is a pain, especially when using
>> the search engine at google for groups.

Hellmark> Well, thats why most people who bottom post trim.

Good to hear that! Makes good sense! Now if that would only happen
;-)).

Later

Post Replies Here Please
July 22nd 04, 02:23 PM
>>>>> "General" == General Schvantzkoph > writes:

General> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:12:17 -0700, XS11E wrote:
>> General Schvantzkoph > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> However if you don't need Linux's power then it would be silly to
>>> use Linux + Win4Lin, you should just stick with XP.
>> You're probably right, I'll very likely end my Linux experiment
>> soon.

General> It wasn't my intention to discourage you from using Linux I
General> was only pointing out that for the typical non-techno savvy
General> user there wasn't a compelling reason to switch. However for
General> someone who is willing to put in some work and isn't afraid
General> of technology it offers a much more rewarding experience
General> than Windows. It's infinitely flexible in a way that Windows
General> can never be so you can adapt it to your workstyle. The
General> major distributions come with thousands of applications so
General> you have the chance to try out all sorts of things. It's
General> constantly improving at a rate that far exceeds anything
General> that you are like to see from the Microsoft. And you are
General> free to do with it what you want, putting it on as many
General> machines as you want, putting multiple distributions on the
General> same machine so you can try them all out. To sum up, Linux's
General> strengths are also it's weaknesses. For the hacker
General> personality type who wants to have complete control over his
General> computing environment and who wants the latest and greatest
General> everything, Linux is a dream. For the non-technical user who
General> gets easily confused, Linux would be a nightmare.

My two cents here. For the non-technical user who get easily confused,
any OS could be a nightmare!

Whatever

Post Replies Here Please
July 22nd 04, 02:27 PM
>>>>> "GW" == GW De Lacey <<georgew (@) dnet.aunz.com> Unbracket @ to reply> writes:

GW> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:40:24 GMT, Hellmark wrote:
>> Ed Light's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged through
>> his body were:
>>> "Net Resident" > wrote
>>>> #1 Learn how to post on Usenet by not top posting.
>>> That's a debated issue. Personally I prefer top posts when they
>>> don't have to answer a specific sentence of paragraph.
>> I inline/bottom post. That way, if someone doesnt get the previous
>> posts (which happens on usenet), they can still have an idea of
>> whats going on, plus I can coment on each individual part I want
>> to. I dont have to lump all my things together

GW> Good boy...

GW> -- GW

GW> A. Top posters. Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

I disagree the most annoying thing on Usenet is still spam posts, and
cross posting. These are my top two. It still amazes me how many
folks cross post! I have to admit for some reason the spam at least
from my usenet server is decreasing.

Whatever - another endless debate. Remember that is my opinion so
don't brother to correct it ;-)).

Thanks!

General Schvantzkoph
July 22nd 04, 04:40 PM
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:23:40 -0500, Post Replies Here Please wrote:

>
> My two cents here. For the non-technical user who get easily confused,
> any OS could be a nightmare!
>
> Whatever

I haven't used a Mac recently so I don't know if it's still true but the
original Mac was genuinely easy for anyone to use. The Mac philosphy is
the polar opposite of Linux, i.e Linux offers a tremendous variety of
choices at every level from the kernel up, the Mac offered a single
"right way" of doing everything. The downside of Linux is that
everything requires some fiddling to get to work, the downside
of the pre-OSX Mac was that there was no easy way to add
functionality if it was missing, things are either easy or impossible with
no middle ground. Everything on the Mac was truely plug and play in a way
that Windows has never achieved. If you installed a program or plugged in
a card it just worked. The user interface followed strict guidelines so
everything was absolutely consistant so that once you learned how to do
anything you could pretty much do anything.

Hellmark
July 22nd 04, 06:27 PM
Post Replies Here Please's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged
through his body were:
>>>>>> "Hellmark" == Hellmark > writes:
> Hellmark> Post Replies Here Please's last words before the Sword of
> Hellmark> Azrial plunged through his body were:
> >> Works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. I wish one rule could
> >> handle all situations. For extremely long posts that are not
> >> reduced in size bottom posting is a pain, especially when using
> >> the search engine at google for groups.
> Hellmark> Well, thats why most people who bottom post trim.
> Good to hear that! Makes good sense! Now if that would only happen
> ;-)).

Thats why we have to beat the wrong doers into submission!

XS11E
July 22nd 04, 07:15 PM
General Schvantzkoph > wrote in
:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:12:17 -0700, XS11E wrote:
>
>> General Schvantzkoph > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> However if you don't need Linux's power then it would be silly
>>> to use Linux + Win4Lin, you should just stick with XP.
>>
>> You're probably right, I'll very likely end my Linux experiment
>> soon.
>
> It wasn't my intention to discourage you from using Linux

You didn't. I've kept the quadruple boot setup (Mandrake is one of 4
OSs I have) and boot into Linux from time to time to learn more about
it but I've not really had time to learn as much about it as I need to.

> I was only pointing out that for the typical non-techno savvy user
> there wasn't a compelling reason to switch. However for someone who
> is willing to put in some work and isn't afraid of technology it
> offers a much more rewarding experience than Windows.

That I disagree with, if something does what I need done, I'm
adequately rewarded. I don't look for rewards from using a computer,
it's something I need so I have one.

I've been at it since 1961, I'm probably fairly comfortable with
computers but I've never considered them as anything other than a tool
to do a specific job.

Ben Pope
July 22nd 04, 07:49 PM
Hellmark wrote:
> Post Replies Here Please's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged
> through his body were:
>
>> Works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. I wish one rule could handle
>> all situations. For extremely long posts that are not reduced in size
>> bottom posting is a pain, especially when using the search engine at
>> google for groups.
>
> Well, thats why most people who bottom post trim.

The whole point about this debate is not who top posts and who bottom posts,
and who trims and who doesn't (and which is best)

It's about presentation. If you post, you intend to be heard. If you
intend to be heard you should make the effort to present your argument well,
or not bother.

Trimming and bottom posting (or posting inline) is the best way to present
the information in almost all cases. If you are going to post at the top,
then the information below is detached from the reply and pretty much
useless (so you might as well trim it all). It's the idiots who put their
one-line reply (which is often pointless or hard to see) right before 30+
lines of included text (without so much as even hitting return after it to
separate it from the rest) that annoy me.

People who top post rarely trim anything ever, and you just end up with a
whole mess of characters in the message that are meaningless as they have no
context. It's not the top-posting per se that's the problem, it's laziness
of presentation, and there is a high correlation between the two. That's
not to say that people who bottom post are all exquisite posters either,
that would be far from the truth. But trimming (to make the included text
relevant) and replying to the relevant parts in relevant places is at least
a start to getting your point across well.

Ben
--
A7N8X FAQ: www.ben.pope.name/a7n8x_faq.html
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Ed Light
July 23rd 04, 12:36 AM
"Ben Pope" > wrote
> If you are going to post at the top,
> then the information below is detached from the reply and pretty much
> useless
It's there for those who are unsure what the previous post was.
If they don't get it, they can look below. If they do, they don't have to
bother going through it again to get to the reply.
I do think the stuff below deserves a trimming.

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Ben Pope
July 23rd 04, 12:43 AM
Ed Light wrote:
> "Ben Pope" > wrote
>> If you are going to post at the top,
>> then the information below is detached from the reply and pretty much
>> useless
> It's there for those who are unsure what the previous post was.

It's there 'cos the poster can't be arsed to trim properly (or at all), in
most cases.

> If they don't get it, they can look below. If they do, they don't have to
> bother going through it again to get to the reply.
> I do think the stuff below deserves a trimming.


Indeed.

Ben
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A7N8X FAQ: www.ben.pope.name/a7n8x_faq.html
Questions by email will likely be ignored, please use the newsgroups.
I'm not just a number. To many, I'm known as a String...

Nelson M. G. Santiago
July 23rd 04, 04:51 AM
In >, on 07/23/04
at 01:22 PM, GW De Lacey <georgew (@) dnet.aunz.com> Unbracket @ to
reply said:

>Exactly! If everyone takes a just a small amount of care, a newsgroup
>becomes a pleasure rather than a chore.
>I fear though that concepts such as presentation and consideration for
>others are a bit beyond the grasp some.


Sorry if this might (in)flame some but: isn't this a hardware NG?


Nelson

-----------------------------------------------------------
Nelson M. G. Santiago >
-----------------------------------------------------------

Today is Fri Jul 23, 2004.

As of 0:51am this OS/2 Warp 4 system has been up for 0 days, 0 hours, and
29 minutes. It's running 31 processes with 132 threads.

Hellmark
July 23rd 04, 05:54 AM
Nelson M. G. Santiago's last words before the Sword of Azrial plunged
through his body were:
> Sorry if this might (in)flame some but: isn't this a hardware NG?

Can't have on topic talk 100% of the time, it eventually erodes the
community away because there is only so much one can say about any given
subject.

Nelson M. G. Santiago
July 23rd 04, 10:09 AM
In >, on 07/23/04
at 04:54 AM, Hellmark > said:

>Can't have on topic talk 100% of the time, it eventually erodes the
>community away because there is only so much one can say about any given
>subject.

I do agree. But (and there's always a but) just some short statistics:
I got 62 posts from July 20th on (inclusive) before I wrote. From these,
18 were on topic, and 46 were about top/bottom posting, even with a small
start of a flame war. Though this subject started interesting and followed
in with a discussion about OSes, we were swaying away off topic, and
would, maybe, be discussing the sex of angels in a short time. I could
have killed the topic, but I don't like to do so. Just my 2 cents.

Nelson

-----------------------------------------------------------
Nelson M. G. Santiago >
-----------------------------------------------------------

Today is Fri Jul 23, 2004.

As of 6:09am this OS/2 Warp 4 system has been up for 0 days, 5 hours, and
47 minutes. It's running 31 processes with 132 threads.