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CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
May 29th 04, 07:13 PM
We have a fair number of Compaq 4214R U2 hotswap drive cases. The behavior
I normally see is that when you insert a hotswap drive into one of these
cases, it autorotates, and at that point it can then be seen on the SCSI bus
by the attached host computer.

On one 4214R I just installed, when I insert hotswap drives, the green arrow
light on the hotswap tray lights up (so we have connection to the hotswap
bus), but the drive itself never rotates. The same drive, in the same
tray, does autorotate in other 4214R cases. What would cause this
behavior, and how can I correct it so that the drive will correctly start up
once inserted to this case?

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com

Larry
May 29th 04, 08:56 PM
"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> We have a fair number of Compaq 4214R U2 hotswap drive cases. The
behavior
> I normally see is that when you insert a hotswap drive into one of these
> cases, it autorotates, and at that point it can then be seen on the SCSI
bus
> by the attached host computer.
>
> On one 4214R I just installed, when I insert hotswap drives, the green
arrow
> light on the hotswap tray lights up (so we have connection to the hotswap
> bus), but the drive itself never rotates. The same drive, in the same
> tray, does autorotate in other 4214R cases. What would cause this
> behavior, and how can I correct it so that the drive will correctly start
up
> once inserted to this case?
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com

I'd put another drive in that same tray and try again (you're trying to
narrow it down to the drive or the tray).

Larry

NuTCrAcKeR
May 29th 04, 10:11 PM
Is this new drive part of an array yet? If not, it wont automatically spin
up.

It needs to be part of an Array Volume first.

I am sure your drives, and tray are fine.

- LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> We have a fair number of Compaq 4214R U2 hotswap drive cases. The
behavior
> I normally see is that when you insert a hotswap drive into one of these
> cases, it autorotates, and at that point it can then be seen on the SCSI
bus
> by the attached host computer.
>
> On one 4214R I just installed, when I insert hotswap drives, the green
arrow
> light on the hotswap tray lights up (so we have connection to the hotswap
> bus), but the drive itself never rotates. The same drive, in the same
> tray, does autorotate in other 4214R cases. What would cause this
> behavior, and how can I correct it so that the drive will correctly start
up
> once inserted to this case?
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
May 29th 04, 10:44 PM
I get the same symptom with other drives in this case. The EU on the case
is not showing any error.

I did try several different slots in the case as well.

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com


"Larry" > wrote in message
...
> I'd put another drive in that same tray and try again (you're trying to
> narrow it down to the drive or the tray).
>
> Larry

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
May 29th 04, 10:46 PM
The 4214R is not a RAID case. There are no arrays. I am trying to boot a
computer using the first slot as the SCSI ID=0 device, which is something we
do very successfully for many different computers. We generally don't like
to have hard drives inside of end-users computer cases when possible, so we
tend to hotswap everything in external cases.

Obviously, the computer cannot see the drive if it does not spin up.

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com


"NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
...
> Is this new drive part of an array yet? If not, it wont automatically spin
> up.
>
> It needs to be part of an Array Volume first.
>
> I am sure your drives, and tray are fine.
>
> - LC

NuTCrAcKeR
May 29th 04, 11:15 PM
why are you posting questions about consumer "end user" computers in a
server group ?

- LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> The 4214R is not a RAID case. There are no arrays. I am trying to boot
a
> computer using the first slot as the SCSI ID=0 device, which is something
we
> do very successfully for many different computers. We generally don't
like
> to have hard drives inside of end-users computer cases when possible, so
we
> tend to hotswap everything in external cases.
>
> Obviously, the computer cannot see the drive if it does not spin up.
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
>
> "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Is this new drive part of an array yet? If not, it wont automatically
spin
> > up.
> >
> > It needs to be part of an Array Volume first.
> >
> > I am sure your drives, and tray are fine.
> >
> > - LC
>
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
May 30th 04, 03:28 AM
The 4214R is a server drive cabinet. It would almost never be used by a
consumer. The fact that we use it for both servers and an occasional end
user machine is nothing more than trivia, and you shouldn't fixate on that.

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com

"NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
...
> why are you posting questions about consumer "end user" computers in a
> server group ?
>
> - LC

NuTCrAcKeR
May 30th 04, 04:10 AM
What controller do you have in the "end user" machine. What kind of machine
is it?

- LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> The 4214R is a server drive cabinet. It would almost never be used by a
> consumer. The fact that we use it for both servers and an occasional end
> user machine is nothing more than trivia, and you shouldn't fixate on
that.
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
> "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > why are you posting questions about consumer "end user" computers in a
> > server group ?
> >
> > - LC
>
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
May 30th 04, 09:23 PM
The end user machine in this case is a Compaq W8000 Professional
Workstaiton. We have many such machines attached to other Compaq U2
cases. This is the first one I have attached to a 4214R.

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com

"NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
...
> What controller do you have in the "end user" machine. What kind of
machine
> is it?
>
> - LC

NuTCrAcKeR
May 31st 04, 04:24 AM
are you trying to hot-add drives while the machine is online, or just boot
with drives in the chassis ?

- LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> The end user machine in this case is a Compaq W8000 Professional
> Workstaiton. We have many such machines attached to other Compaq U2
> cases. This is the first one I have attached to a 4214R.
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
> "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > What controller do you have in the "end user" machine. What kind of
> machine
> > is it?
> >
> > - LC
>
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
May 31st 04, 06:59 AM
I'm trying to boot with drives already in the chassis.

Normally what I see on the 4214R is that if you insert a hotswap drive it
powers on even when there is no host attached. That is not happening in
this case.

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com


"NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
...
> are you trying to hot-add drives while the machine is online, or just boot
> with drives in the chassis ?
>
> - LC

NuTCrAcKeR
May 31st 04, 09:41 AM
well... unless the drives are jumpered for motor start, they will need to
get a spin up instruction from a controller. There is an interface in the
chassis, but not a "controller" per se.

Are these drives from CPQ, or did you take some less expensive drives, and
put them in the hotswap carriers?

- LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> I'm trying to boot with drives already in the chassis.
>
> Normally what I see on the 4214R is that if you insert a hotswap drive it
> powers on even when there is no host attached. That is not happening in
> this case.
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
>
> "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > are you trying to hot-add drives while the machine is online, or just
boot
> > with drives in the chassis ?
> >
> > - LC
>
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
May 31st 04, 06:35 PM
These are "official" Compaq 15K hotswap drives (all Seagate 9GB).

I'll look for an autostart jumper, but how strange that someone would have
changed the default.

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com


"NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
...
> well... unless the drives are jumpered for motor start, they will need to
> get a spin up instruction from a controller. There is an interface in the
> chassis, but not a "controller" per se.
>
> Are these drives from CPQ, or did you take some less expensive drives, and
> put them in the hotswap carriers?
>
> - LC

NuTCrAcKeR
May 31st 04, 07:04 PM
typically, one wouldnt need to change it.

So, is the cabinet attached to a machine when you power it on? On board
controller with the PWS, or a diff HPaq or 3rd party ? Which one, and is it
configured to send the start command to the systems.

have you tried hanging this off a workstation in the same configuration that
you know is operational ? troubleshooting is a process of elimination...

- LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> These are "official" Compaq 15K hotswap drives (all Seagate 9GB).
>
> I'll look for an autostart jumper, but how strange that someone would have
> changed the default.
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
>
> "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > well... unless the drives are jumpered for motor start, they will need
to
> > get a spin up instruction from a controller. There is an interface in
the
> > chassis, but not a "controller" per se.
> >
> > Are these drives from CPQ, or did you take some less expensive drives,
and
> > put them in the hotswap carriers?
> >
> > - LC
>
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
May 31st 04, 07:47 PM
The same W8000 is currently attached to a Compaq UW case, and those drives
start up just fine, so the system is configured to autostart the drives.

The cabinet is attached to the machine when it is powered on. The computer
is powered on after the case is powered on.

Using the Compaq W8000 onboard controller.

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com


"NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
...
> typically, one wouldnt need to change it.
>
> So, is the cabinet attached to a machine when you power it on? On board
> controller with the PWS, or a diff HPaq or 3rd party ? Which one, and is
it
> configured to send the start command to the systems.
>
> have you tried hanging this off a workstation in the same configuration
that
> you know is operational ? troubleshooting is a process of elimination...
>
> - LC

NuTCrAcKeR
May 31st 04, 09:12 PM
Ok...

Hrmm, W8000 on board controller. If i am not mistaken, the onboard
controller has only one external header. how are you attaching 2 cabinets to
this machine ? Is the UW hanging off the external, and the New chassis
coming off the internal header by way of a redirection cable ?

Throw me a bone here, and give me some information. Surgically extracting
every piece of information from you is getting quite tedious, and boring.


A better, more affordable architecture might be to put a fibre channel HBA
in each machine, put those pluggable cabinets to some real use by building a
workgroup SAN. They (workstations) will have the added benefit of RAID, and
take advantage of the availabilility features that are being thoroughly
wasted in their current capacity.


-LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> The same W8000 is currently attached to a Compaq UW case, and those drives
> start up just fine, so the system is configured to autostart the drives.
>
> The cabinet is attached to the machine when it is powered on. The
computer
> is powered on after the case is powered on.
>
> Using the Compaq W8000 onboard controller.
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
>
> "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > typically, one wouldnt need to change it.
> >
> > So, is the cabinet attached to a machine when you power it on? On board
> > controller with the PWS, or a diff HPaq or 3rd party ? Which one, and is
> it
> > configured to send the start command to the systems.
> >
> > have you tried hanging this off a workstation in the same configuration
> that
> > you know is operational ? troubleshooting is a process of elimination...
> >
> > - LC
>
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
May 31st 04, 10:12 PM
We used to attach it to a Compaq UW. We removed that and want to replace
that with the 4214R. So one machine with one external interface attached
to one external cabinet.

I'll do more experiments later today and post results.

I'm with you as far as fibre channel goes. I would love to be booting our
workstations off of fibre drives and have those consolidated in location to
a central room, which would lower noise as well. The problem is how to do
this on the cheap. The cheap fibre cabinets are the Compaq fibre channel
arrays. The problem is the standard Compaq 32 and 64 bit fibre channel
adapters that work with those products do NOT allow you to boot from the
array! I understand that later generations of the host adapter do allow
this, but those adapters cost as much as the workstation does.

Do you know of anyone who makes a JBOD fibre cabinet that:

A) has some simple firewall capabilities, so we can control which hosts see
which drives.

B) is relatively cheap, and preferably plentiful on the secondary market

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com


"NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
...
> Ok...
>
> Hrmm, W8000 on board controller. If i am not mistaken, the onboard
> controller has only one external header. how are you attaching 2 cabinets
to
> this machine ? Is the UW hanging off the external, and the New chassis
> coming off the internal header by way of a redirection cable ?
>
> Throw me a bone here, and give me some information. Surgically extracting
> every piece of information from you is getting quite tedious, and boring.
>
>
> A better, more affordable architecture might be to put a fibre channel HBA
> in each machine, put those pluggable cabinets to some real use by building
a
> workgroup SAN. They (workstations) will have the added benefit of RAID,
and
> take advantage of the availabilility features that are being thoroughly
> wasted in their current capacity.
>
>
> -LC
>
> "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
> message ...
> > The same W8000 is currently attached to a Compaq UW case, and those
drives
> > start up just fine, so the system is configured to autostart the drives.
> >
> > The cabinet is attached to the machine when it is powered on. The
> computer
> > is powered on after the case is powered on.
> >
> > Using the Compaq W8000 onboard controller.
> >
> > --
> > Will
> > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> >
> >
> > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > typically, one wouldnt need to change it.
> > >
> > > So, is the cabinet attached to a machine when you power it on? On
board
> > > controller with the PWS, or a diff HPaq or 3rd party ? Which one, and
is
> > it
> > > configured to send the start command to the systems.
> > >
> > > have you tried hanging this off a workstation in the same
configuration
> > that
> > > you know is operational ? troubleshooting is a process of
elimination...
> > >
> > > - LC
> >
> >
>
>

NuTCrAcKeR
May 31st 04, 11:08 PM
ebay is your friend.

I wasnt suggesting SAN booting the workstations, thought that is a thought.

If you are patient, you can build an economical SAN with Hpaq gear. You can
get an RA4000/R4100 for next to nothing. The adapters are always being
listed, as are the hubs and switches. SC-SC cables can also be found.

Plus, the RA series uses standard SCSI drives, so you dont have to muck with
FC drives and all that.

Depending on the number of workstations you are planning on outfitting,
$1500 ~ $2000 should get you outfitted with at least 1TB across a few
chassis. And, if you have version 2.60 on the RA firmware, you can do SSP
(selective storage presentation) at the RA-Controller level. You could also
get one of the OEM brocade switches (not "modular data router") which can
also take care of the presentation for you, and probably with better
performance.

So, how cheap is cheap ? and how much space makes it worth it ?

- LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> We used to attach it to a Compaq UW. We removed that and want to replace
> that with the 4214R. So one machine with one external interface attached
> to one external cabinet.
>
> I'll do more experiments later today and post results.
>
> I'm with you as far as fibre channel goes. I would love to be booting
our
> workstations off of fibre drives and have those consolidated in location
to
> a central room, which would lower noise as well. The problem is how to
do
> this on the cheap. The cheap fibre cabinets are the Compaq fibre channel
> arrays. The problem is the standard Compaq 32 and 64 bit fibre channel
> adapters that work with those products do NOT allow you to boot from the
> array! I understand that later generations of the host adapter do allow
> this, but those adapters cost as much as the workstation does.
>
> Do you know of anyone who makes a JBOD fibre cabinet that:
>
> A) has some simple firewall capabilities, so we can control which hosts
see
> which drives.
>
> B) is relatively cheap, and preferably plentiful on the secondary market
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
>
> "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ok...
> >
> > Hrmm, W8000 on board controller. If i am not mistaken, the onboard
> > controller has only one external header. how are you attaching 2
cabinets
> to
> > this machine ? Is the UW hanging off the external, and the New chassis
> > coming off the internal header by way of a redirection cable ?
> >
> > Throw me a bone here, and give me some information. Surgically
extracting
> > every piece of information from you is getting quite tedious, and
boring.
> >
> >
> > A better, more affordable architecture might be to put a fibre channel
HBA
> > in each machine, put those pluggable cabinets to some real use by
building
> a
> > workgroup SAN. They (workstations) will have the added benefit of RAID,
> and
> > take advantage of the availabilility features that are being thoroughly
> > wasted in their current capacity.
> >
> >
> > -LC
> >
> > "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
> > message ...
> > > The same W8000 is currently attached to a Compaq UW case, and those
> drives
> > > start up just fine, so the system is configured to autostart the
drives.
> > >
> > > The cabinet is attached to the machine when it is powered on. The
> > computer
> > > is powered on after the case is powered on.
> > >
> > > Using the Compaq W8000 onboard controller.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Will
> > > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> > >
> > >
> > > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > typically, one wouldnt need to change it.
> > > >
> > > > So, is the cabinet attached to a machine when you power it on? On
> board
> > > > controller with the PWS, or a diff HPaq or 3rd party ? Which one,
and
> is
> > > it
> > > > configured to send the start command to the systems.
> > > >
> > > > have you tried hanging this off a workstation in the same
> configuration
> > > that
> > > > you know is operational ? troubleshooting is a process of
> elimination...
> > > >
> > > > - LC
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
June 1st 04, 09:03 AM
We use the RA4000, but we have never found any way to boot a Windows 2000
computer from one, using any fibre channel host adapter. Compaq is using
some weird very proprietary fibre channel variant on those boxes, and they
refuse to give us any details. I cannot get anything except a handful of
Compaq adapters to work with logical devices created on the RA4000. Maybe
the RA4100 is different?

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com

"NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
...
> ebay is your friend.
>
> I wasnt suggesting SAN booting the workstations, thought that is a
thought.
>
> If you are patient, you can build an economical SAN with Hpaq gear. You
can
> get an RA4000/R4100 for next to nothing. The adapters are always being
> listed, as are the hubs and switches. SC-SC cables can also be found.
>
> Plus, the RA series uses standard SCSI drives, so you dont have to muck
with
> FC drives and all that.
>
> Depending on the number of workstations you are planning on outfitting,
> $1500 ~ $2000 should get you outfitted with at least 1TB across a few
> chassis. And, if you have version 2.60 on the RA firmware, you can do SSP
> (selective storage presentation) at the RA-Controller level. You could
also
> get one of the OEM brocade switches (not "modular data router") which can
> also take care of the presentation for you, and probably with better
> performance.
>
> So, how cheap is cheap ? and how much space makes it worth it ?
>
> - LC
>
> "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
> message ...
> > We used to attach it to a Compaq UW. We removed that and want to
replace
> > that with the 4214R. So one machine with one external interface
attached
> > to one external cabinet.
> >
> > I'll do more experiments later today and post results.
> >
> > I'm with you as far as fibre channel goes. I would love to be booting
> our
> > workstations off of fibre drives and have those consolidated in location
> to
> > a central room, which would lower noise as well. The problem is how to
> do
> > this on the cheap. The cheap fibre cabinets are the Compaq fibre
channel
> > arrays. The problem is the standard Compaq 32 and 64 bit fibre channel
> > adapters that work with those products do NOT allow you to boot from the
> > array! I understand that later generations of the host adapter do
allow
> > this, but those adapters cost as much as the workstation does.
> >
> > Do you know of anyone who makes a JBOD fibre cabinet that:
> >
> > A) has some simple firewall capabilities, so we can control which hosts
> see
> > which drives.
> >
> > B) is relatively cheap, and preferably plentiful on the secondary market
> >
> > --
> > Will
> > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> >
> >
> > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Ok...
> > >
> > > Hrmm, W8000 on board controller. If i am not mistaken, the onboard
> > > controller has only one external header. how are you attaching 2
> cabinets
> > to
> > > this machine ? Is the UW hanging off the external, and the New chassis
> > > coming off the internal header by way of a redirection cable ?
> > >
> > > Throw me a bone here, and give me some information. Surgically
> extracting
> > > every piece of information from you is getting quite tedious, and
> boring.
> > >
> > >
> > > A better, more affordable architecture might be to put a fibre channel
> HBA
> > > in each machine, put those pluggable cabinets to some real use by
> building
> > a
> > > workgroup SAN. They (workstations) will have the added benefit of
RAID,
> > and
> > > take advantage of the availabilility features that are being
thoroughly
> > > wasted in their current capacity.
> > >
> > >
> > > -LC
> > >
> > > "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote
in
> > > message ...
> > > > The same W8000 is currently attached to a Compaq UW case, and those
> > drives
> > > > start up just fine, so the system is configured to autostart the
> drives.
> > > >
> > > > The cabinet is attached to the machine when it is powered on. The
> > > computer
> > > > is powered on after the case is powered on.
> > > >
> > > > Using the Compaq W8000 onboard controller.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Will
> > > > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > typically, one wouldnt need to change it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, is the cabinet attached to a machine when you power it on? On
> > board
> > > > > controller with the PWS, or a diff HPaq or 3rd party ? Which one,
> and
> > is
> > > > it
> > > > > configured to send the start command to the systems.
> > > > >
> > > > > have you tried hanging this off a workstation in the same
> > configuration
> > > > that
> > > > > you know is operational ? troubleshooting is a process of
> > elimination...
> > > > >
> > > > > - LC
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Nut Cracker
June 1st 04, 03:42 PM
The 4000 and the 4100 use an identical in-chassis controller (which uses the
64M BBC that the SA3200 uses, which can also be used to give a 2DH 64M cache
as well). The difference is in the drive support. The 4000 supports WUS3
drives, while the 4100 supports the U2/U3 drives and trays.

As for HBA's, I have had limited sucess with the Emuex PL7000e controllers,
while every single time I have used the CPQ FCAL PCI Adapter (
http://tinyurl.com/34wa2) I have had no problems at all. Honestly thought,
my testing has yielded that this controller is only capable of about 256
I/O's a second, and as such is not the best performing card I have used.
(sorry about the bold text.. cant make it go away...)

I have not played around with making the HBA the first controller on the
servers I have, as I have been under the impression it was not an option
anyway.

However, if you were to put an 18 or 36G U2, 68pin drive on the internal
controller for booting, and then having the data volume be on the SAN, you
would achieve a vast majority of your storage goal.

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> We use the RA4000, but we have never found any way to boot a Windows 2000
> computer from one, using any fibre channel host adapter. Compaq is using
> some weird very proprietary fibre channel variant on those boxes, and they
> refuse to give us any details. I cannot get anything except a handful of
> Compaq adapters to work with logical devices created on the RA4000.
Maybe
> the RA4100 is different?
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
> "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ebay is your friend.
> >
> > I wasnt suggesting SAN booting the workstations, thought that is a
> thought.
> >
> > If you are patient, you can build an economical SAN with Hpaq gear. You
> can
> > get an RA4000/R4100 for next to nothing. The adapters are always being
> > listed, as are the hubs and switches. SC-SC cables can also be found.
> >
> > Plus, the RA series uses standard SCSI drives, so you dont have to muck
> with
> > FC drives and all that.
> >
> > Depending on the number of workstations you are planning on outfitting,
> > $1500 ~ $2000 should get you outfitted with at least 1TB across a few
> > chassis. And, if you have version 2.60 on the RA firmware, you can do
SSP
> > (selective storage presentation) at the RA-Controller level. You could
> also
> > get one of the OEM brocade switches (not "modular data router") which
can
> > also take care of the presentation for you, and probably with better
> > performance.
> >
> > So, how cheap is cheap ? and how much space makes it worth it ?
> >
> > - LC
> >
> > "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
> > message ...
> > > We used to attach it to a Compaq UW. We removed that and want to
> replace
> > > that with the 4214R. So one machine with one external interface
> attached
> > > to one external cabinet.
> > >
> > > I'll do more experiments later today and post results.
> > >
> > > I'm with you as far as fibre channel goes. I would love to be
booting
> > our
> > > workstations off of fibre drives and have those consolidated in
location
> > to
> > > a central room, which would lower noise as well. The problem is how
to
> > do
> > > this on the cheap. The cheap fibre cabinets are the Compaq fibre
> channel
> > > arrays. The problem is the standard Compaq 32 and 64 bit fibre
channel
> > > adapters that work with those products do NOT allow you to boot from
the
> > > array! I understand that later generations of the host adapter do
> allow
> > > this, but those adapters cost as much as the workstation does.
> > >
> > > Do you know of anyone who makes a JBOD fibre cabinet that:
> > >
> > > A) has some simple firewall capabilities, so we can control which
hosts
> > see
> > > which drives.
> > >
> > > B) is relatively cheap, and preferably plentiful on the secondary
market
> > >
> > > --
> > > Will
> > > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> > >
> > >
> > > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Ok...
> > > >
> > > > Hrmm, W8000 on board controller. If i am not mistaken, the onboard
> > > > controller has only one external header. how are you attaching 2
> > cabinets
> > > to
> > > > this machine ? Is the UW hanging off the external, and the New
chassis
> > > > coming off the internal header by way of a redirection cable ?
> > > >
> > > > Throw me a bone here, and give me some information. Surgically
> > extracting
> > > > every piece of information from you is getting quite tedious, and
> > boring.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > A better, more affordable architecture might be to put a fibre
channel
> > HBA
> > > > in each machine, put those pluggable cabinets to some real use by
> > building
> > > a
> > > > workgroup SAN. They (workstations) will have the added benefit of
> RAID,
> > > and
> > > > take advantage of the availabilility features that are being
> thoroughly
> > > > wasted in their current capacity.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -LC
> > > >
> > > > "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote
> in
> > > > message ...
> > > > > The same W8000 is currently attached to a Compaq UW case, and
those
> > > drives
> > > > > start up just fine, so the system is configured to autostart the
> > drives.
> > > > >
> > > > > The cabinet is attached to the machine when it is powered on.
The
> > > > computer
> > > > > is powered on after the case is powered on.
> > > > >
> > > > > Using the Compaq W8000 onboard controller.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Will
> > > > > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > typically, one wouldnt need to change it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, is the cabinet attached to a machine when you power it on?
On
> > > board
> > > > > > controller with the PWS, or a diff HPaq or 3rd party ? Which
one,
> > and
> > > is
> > > > > it
> > > > > > configured to send the start command to the systems.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > have you tried hanging this off a workstation in the same
> > > configuration
> > > > > that
> > > > > > you know is operational ? troubleshooting is a process of
> > > elimination...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - LC
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
June 1st 04, 07:53 PM
What you describe is what we do already: we boot locally and we have the
larger volumes on fibre channel.

Having said that, we are back to square one. We want to boot the local
volume of a W8000 workstation from the Compaq 15K 9GB drive in the SCSI ID=0
position inside a Compaq 4214R case. We cannot get the drive to autostart
when connected to the W8000.

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com


"Nut Cracker" > wrote in message
...
> The 4000 and the 4100 use an identical in-chassis controller (which uses
the
> 64M BBC that the SA3200 uses, which can also be used to give a 2DH 64M
cache
> as well). The difference is in the drive support. The 4000 supports WUS3
> drives, while the 4100 supports the U2/U3 drives and trays.
>
> As for HBA's, I have had limited sucess with the Emuex PL7000e
controllers,
> while every single time I have used the CPQ FCAL PCI Adapter (
> http://tinyurl.com/34wa2) I have had no problems at all. Honestly thought,
> my testing has yielded that this controller is only capable of about 256
> I/O's a second, and as such is not the best performing card I have used.
> (sorry about the bold text.. cant make it go away...)
>
> I have not played around with making the HBA the first controller on the
> servers I have, as I have been under the impression it was not an option
> anyway.
>
> However, if you were to put an 18 or 36G U2, 68pin drive on the internal
> controller for booting, and then having the data volume be on the SAN, you
> would achieve a vast majority of your storage goal.
>
> "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
> message ...
> > We use the RA4000, but we have never found any way to boot a Windows
2000
> > computer from one, using any fibre channel host adapter. Compaq is
using
> > some weird very proprietary fibre channel variant on those boxes, and
they
> > refuse to give us any details. I cannot get anything except a handful
of
> > Compaq adapters to work with logical devices created on the RA4000.
> Maybe
> > the RA4100 is different?
> >
> > --
> > Will
> > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> >
> > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > ebay is your friend.
> > >
> > > I wasnt suggesting SAN booting the workstations, thought that is a
> > thought.
> > >
> > > If you are patient, you can build an economical SAN with Hpaq gear.
You
> > can
> > > get an RA4000/R4100 for next to nothing. The adapters are always being
> > > listed, as are the hubs and switches. SC-SC cables can also be found.
> > >
> > > Plus, the RA series uses standard SCSI drives, so you dont have to
muck
> > with
> > > FC drives and all that.
> > >
> > > Depending on the number of workstations you are planning on
outfitting,
> > > $1500 ~ $2000 should get you outfitted with at least 1TB across a few
> > > chassis. And, if you have version 2.60 on the RA firmware, you can do
> SSP
> > > (selective storage presentation) at the RA-Controller level. You could
> > also
> > > get one of the OEM brocade switches (not "modular data router") which
> can
> > > also take care of the presentation for you, and probably with better
> > > performance.
> > >
> > > So, how cheap is cheap ? and how much space makes it worth it ?
> > >
> > > - LC
> > >
> > > "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote
in
> > > message ...
> > > > We used to attach it to a Compaq UW. We removed that and want to
> > replace
> > > > that with the 4214R. So one machine with one external interface
> > attached
> > > > to one external cabinet.
> > > >
> > > > I'll do more experiments later today and post results.
> > > >
> > > > I'm with you as far as fibre channel goes. I would love to be
> booting
> > > our
> > > > workstations off of fibre drives and have those consolidated in
> location
> > > to
> > > > a central room, which would lower noise as well. The problem is
how
> to
> > > do
> > > > this on the cheap. The cheap fibre cabinets are the Compaq fibre
> > channel
> > > > arrays. The problem is the standard Compaq 32 and 64 bit fibre
> channel
> > > > adapters that work with those products do NOT allow you to boot from
> the
> > > > array! I understand that later generations of the host adapter do
> > allow
> > > > this, but those adapters cost as much as the workstation does.
> > > >
> > > > Do you know of anyone who makes a JBOD fibre cabinet that:
> > > >
> > > > A) has some simple firewall capabilities, so we can control which
> hosts
> > > see
> > > > which drives.
> > > >
> > > > B) is relatively cheap, and preferably plentiful on the secondary
> market
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Will
> > > > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Ok...
> > > > >
> > > > > Hrmm, W8000 on board controller. If i am not mistaken, the onboard
> > > > > controller has only one external header. how are you attaching 2
> > > cabinets
> > > > to
> > > > > this machine ? Is the UW hanging off the external, and the New
> chassis
> > > > > coming off the internal header by way of a redirection cable ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Throw me a bone here, and give me some information. Surgically
> > > extracting
> > > > > every piece of information from you is getting quite tedious, and
> > > boring.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A better, more affordable architecture might be to put a fibre
> channel
> > > HBA
> > > > > in each machine, put those pluggable cabinets to some real use by
> > > building
> > > > a
> > > > > workgroup SAN. They (workstations) will have the added benefit of
> > RAID,
> > > > and
> > > > > take advantage of the availabilility features that are being
> > thoroughly
> > > > > wasted in their current capacity.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -LC
> > > > >
> > > > > "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" >
wrote
> > in
> > > > > message ...
> > > > > > The same W8000 is currently attached to a Compaq UW case, and
> those
> > > > drives
> > > > > > start up just fine, so the system is configured to autostart the
> > > drives.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The cabinet is attached to the machine when it is powered on.
> The
> > > > > computer
> > > > > > is powered on after the case is powered on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Using the Compaq W8000 onboard controller.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Will
> > > > > > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in
message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > typically, one wouldnt need to change it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, is the cabinet attached to a machine when you power it on?
> On
> > > > board
> > > > > > > controller with the PWS, or a diff HPaq or 3rd party ? Which
> one,
> > > and
> > > > is
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > > configured to send the start command to the systems.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > have you tried hanging this off a workstation in the same
> > > > configuration
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > you know is operational ? troubleshooting is a process of
> > > > elimination...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - LC
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Nut Cracker
June 1st 04, 08:14 PM
why have the local drive in a chassis? its just 1 drive. use it internally,
and string from the internal SCSI header.

- LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> What you describe is what we do already: we boot locally and we have the
> larger volumes on fibre channel.
>
> Having said that, we are back to square one. We want to boot the local
> volume of a W8000 workstation from the Compaq 15K 9GB drive in the SCSI
ID=0
> position inside a Compaq 4214R case. We cannot get the drive to
autostart
> when connected to the W8000.
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
>
> "Nut Cracker" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The 4000 and the 4100 use an identical in-chassis controller (which uses
> the
> > 64M BBC that the SA3200 uses, which can also be used to give a 2DH 64M
> cache
> > as well). The difference is in the drive support. The 4000 supports WUS3
> > drives, while the 4100 supports the U2/U3 drives and trays.
> >
> > As for HBA's, I have had limited sucess with the Emuex PL7000e
> controllers,
> > while every single time I have used the CPQ FCAL PCI Adapter (
> > http://tinyurl.com/34wa2) I have had no problems at all. Honestly
thought,
> > my testing has yielded that this controller is only capable of about 256
> > I/O's a second, and as such is not the best performing card I have used.
> > (sorry about the bold text.. cant make it go away...)
> >
> > I have not played around with making the HBA the first controller on the
> > servers I have, as I have been under the impression it was not an option
> > anyway.
> >
> > However, if you were to put an 18 or 36G U2, 68pin drive on the internal
> > controller for booting, and then having the data volume be on the SAN,
you
> > would achieve a vast majority of your storage goal.
> >
> > "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
> > message ...
> > > We use the RA4000, but we have never found any way to boot a Windows
> 2000
> > > computer from one, using any fibre channel host adapter. Compaq is
> using
> > > some weird very proprietary fibre channel variant on those boxes, and
> they
> > > refuse to give us any details. I cannot get anything except a
handful
> of
> > > Compaq adapters to work with logical devices created on the RA4000.
> > Maybe
> > > the RA4100 is different?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Will
> > > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> > >
> > > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > ebay is your friend.
> > > >
> > > > I wasnt suggesting SAN booting the workstations, thought that is a
> > > thought.
> > > >
> > > > If you are patient, you can build an economical SAN with Hpaq gear.
> You
> > > can
> > > > get an RA4000/R4100 for next to nothing. The adapters are always
being
> > > > listed, as are the hubs and switches. SC-SC cables can also be
found.
> > > >
> > > > Plus, the RA series uses standard SCSI drives, so you dont have to
> muck
> > > with
> > > > FC drives and all that.
> > > >
> > > > Depending on the number of workstations you are planning on
> outfitting,
> > > > $1500 ~ $2000 should get you outfitted with at least 1TB across a
few
> > > > chassis. And, if you have version 2.60 on the RA firmware, you can
do
> > SSP
> > > > (selective storage presentation) at the RA-Controller level. You
could
> > > also
> > > > get one of the OEM brocade switches (not "modular data router")
which
> > can
> > > > also take care of the presentation for you, and probably with better
> > > > performance.
> > > >
> > > > So, how cheap is cheap ? and how much space makes it worth it ?
> > > >
> > > > - LC
> > > >
> > > > "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote
> in
> > > > message ...
> > > > > We used to attach it to a Compaq UW. We removed that and want to
> > > replace
> > > > > that with the 4214R. So one machine with one external interface
> > > attached
> > > > > to one external cabinet.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll do more experiments later today and post results.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm with you as far as fibre channel goes. I would love to be
> > booting
> > > > our
> > > > > workstations off of fibre drives and have those consolidated in
> > location
> > > > to
> > > > > a central room, which would lower noise as well. The problem is
> how
> > to
> > > > do
> > > > > this on the cheap. The cheap fibre cabinets are the Compaq fibre
> > > channel
> > > > > arrays. The problem is the standard Compaq 32 and 64 bit fibre
> > channel
> > > > > adapters that work with those products do NOT allow you to boot
from
> > the
> > > > > array! I understand that later generations of the host adapter
do
> > > allow
> > > > > this, but those adapters cost as much as the workstation does.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you know of anyone who makes a JBOD fibre cabinet that:
> > > > >
> > > > > A) has some simple firewall capabilities, so we can control which
> > hosts
> > > > see
> > > > > which drives.
> > > > >
> > > > > B) is relatively cheap, and preferably plentiful on the secondary
> > market
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Will
> > > > > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > Ok...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hrmm, W8000 on board controller. If i am not mistaken, the
onboard
> > > > > > controller has only one external header. how are you attaching 2
> > > > cabinets
> > > > > to
> > > > > > this machine ? Is the UW hanging off the external, and the New
> > chassis
> > > > > > coming off the internal header by way of a redirection cable ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Throw me a bone here, and give me some information. Surgically
> > > > extracting
> > > > > > every piece of information from you is getting quite tedious,
and
> > > > boring.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A better, more affordable architecture might be to put a fibre
> > channel
> > > > HBA
> > > > > > in each machine, put those pluggable cabinets to some real use
by
> > > > building
> > > > > a
> > > > > > workgroup SAN. They (workstations) will have the added benefit
of
> > > RAID,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > take advantage of the availabilility features that are being
> > > thoroughly
> > > > > > wasted in their current capacity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -LC
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" >
> wrote
> > > in
> > > > > > message ...
> > > > > > > The same W8000 is currently attached to a Compaq UW case, and
> > those
> > > > > drives
> > > > > > > start up just fine, so the system is configured to autostart
the
> > > > drives.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The cabinet is attached to the machine when it is powered on.
> > The
> > > > > > computer
> > > > > > > is powered on after the case is powered on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Using the Compaq W8000 onboard controller.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Will
> > > > > > > westes AT earthbroadcast.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "NuTCrAcKeR" > wrote in
> message
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > typically, one wouldnt need to change it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So, is the cabinet attached to a machine when you power it
on?
> > On
> > > > > board
> > > > > > > > controller with the PWS, or a diff HPaq or 3rd party ? Which
> > one,
> > > > and
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > configured to send the start command to the systems.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > have you tried hanging this off a workstation in the same
> > > > > configuration
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > you know is operational ? troubleshooting is a process of
> > > > > elimination...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - LC
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Guy Macon
June 1st 04, 09:05 PM
I just wanted to mention that I find this thread to be informative,
even though I have nothing to contribute.

Nut Cracker
June 1st 04, 09:39 PM
Thank you Guy, its always nice to know that others are watching and gleaning
something from the discussion.

- LC

"Guy Macon" <http://www.guymacon.com> wrote in message
...
>
> I just wanted to mention that I find this thread to be informative,
> even though I have nothing to contribute.
>

CHANGE USERNAME TO westes
June 2nd 04, 06:05 PM
A lifetime of opening cases, unscrewing hard drive, unplugging 68 pin
connectors, etc, has convinced me that hotswap is the way to go. It saves
me time, and time is money.

We get huge leverage from being able to take any end user's drive out of his
case and examine it and fix it on any other machine.

--
Will
westes AT earthbroadcast.com

"Nut Cracker" > wrote in message
...
> why have the local drive in a chassis? its just 1 drive. use it
internally,
> and string from the internal SCSI header.
>
> - LC

NuTCrAcKeR
June 3rd 04, 05:14 AM
Surely there are many ways to achieve the same thing with the workstation,
without introducing a heater and acustic enhancer to a users desk. Those
things ARE annoyingly loud. They may not be HPaq branded solutions, per
se... but they certainly are doable.

- LC

"CHANGE USERNAME TO westes" > wrote in
message ...
> A lifetime of opening cases, unscrewing hard drive, unplugging 68 pin
> connectors, etc, has convinced me that hotswap is the way to go. It
saves
> me time, and time is money.
>
> We get huge leverage from being able to take any end user's drive out of
his
> case and examine it and fix it on any other machine.
>
> --
> Will
> westes AT earthbroadcast.com
>
> "Nut Cracker" > wrote in message
> ...
> > why have the local drive in a chassis? its just 1 drive. use it
> internally,
> > and string from the internal SCSI header.
> >
> > - LC
>
>