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me!!
September 2nd 04, 06:49 PM
My 9800 pro give up the ghost yesterday so i got myself a XFX 6800 non
ultra with 325Mhz clock and 750Mhz mem core ( see overclockers.co.uk
).

My 3dmark 2001se score has DROPPED!! Its gone from 17,750 down to
16,927 with the new card.

On a more postive note my 3dmark03 score has gone up from 5512 to
8535.

System

160gb hdd
xp3200+ cpu
768mb pc3200
audigy2 zs
a7n8x-e deluxe mobo.
plextor px712a dvdrw

What scores are others getting with a simlar setup to me?

paul

GTX_SlotCar
September 2nd 04, 08:50 PM
> My 9800 pro give up the ghost yesterday so i got myself a XFX 6800 non

Did you have a VGA Silencer on it?
My Sapphire 9800Pro died a couple weeks ago (lasted 7 months). ATI and
Sapphire wouldn't fix it, but newegg let me send it back for a replacement.

> My 3dmark 2001se score has DROPPED!! Its gone from 17,750 down to
> 16,927 with the new card.
> On a more postive note my 3dmark03 score has gone up from 5512 to
> 8535.
That's not unusual. Going from a 9800Pro to an eVGA 6800GT, my 01 score
stayed about the same - 21345. Nature scores went up quite a bit, but others
went down some.
In 3dMark03 it went up from 6800 to 12,911.

6800GT
P4 2.4C at 3.12gHz
Abit AI7

Gary

--
Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

me!!
September 2nd 04, 09:13 PM
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:50:27 -0400, "GTX_SlotCar" >
wrote:

>> My 9800 pro give up the ghost yesterday so i got myself a XFX 6800 non
>
>Did you have a VGA Silencer on it?
>My Sapphire 9800Pro died a couple weeks ago (lasted 7 months). ATI and
>Sapphire wouldn't fix it, but newegg let me send it back for a replacement.

No it had the stock cooling, it was a powercolor card. Mine also only
lasted 7 months ( purchased in feb ) but overclockers allowed me to
return it and pay the extra 35 for the 6800. Was fine before i
started paying doom 3.
>
>> My 3dmark 2001se score has DROPPED!! Its gone from 17,750 down to
>> 16,927 with the new card.
>> On a more postive note my 3dmark03 score has gone up from 5512 to
>> 8535.
>That's not unusual. Going from a 9800Pro to an eVGA 6800GT, my 01 score
>stayed about the same - 21345. Nature scores went up quite a bit, but others
>went down some.
>In 3dMark03 it went up from 6800 to 12,911.
>
>6800GT
>P4 2.4C at 3.12gHz
>Abit AI7
>
>Gary

Biz
September 2nd 04, 10:25 PM
Are you guys overclocking these cards, or are they at stock speeds and still
dying?

My gut says overclocked since you cant get them replaced under warranty. But
thats why I'm asking.

"me!!" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:50:27 -0400, "GTX_SlotCar" >
> wrote:
>
> >> My 9800 pro give up the ghost yesterday so i got myself a XFX 6800 non
> >
> >Did you have a VGA Silencer on it?
> >My Sapphire 9800Pro died a couple weeks ago (lasted 7 months). ATI and
> >Sapphire wouldn't fix it, but newegg let me send it back for a
replacement.
>
> No it had the stock cooling, it was a powercolor card. Mine also only
> lasted 7 months ( purchased in feb ) but overclockers allowed me to
> return it and pay the extra 35 for the 6800. Was fine before i
> started paying doom 3.
> >
> >> My 3dmark 2001se score has DROPPED!! Its gone from 17,750 down to
> >> 16,927 with the new card.
> >> On a more postive note my 3dmark03 score has gone up from 5512 to
> >> 8535.
> >That's not unusual. Going from a 9800Pro to an eVGA 6800GT, my 01 score
> >stayed about the same - 21345. Nature scores went up quite a bit, but
others
> >went down some.
> >In 3dMark03 it went up from 6800 to 12,911.
> >
> >6800GT
> >P4 2.4C at 3.12gHz
> >Abit AI7
> >
> >Gary
>

me!!
September 2nd 04, 10:40 PM
On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 21:25:02 GMT, "Biz" > wrote:

>Are you guys overclocking these cards, or are they at stock speeds and still+

Nope, running at stock speeds all its ( short ) life
>dying?
>
>My gut says overclocked since you cant get them replaced under warranty. But
>thats why I'm asking.

overclockers took it back under warranty and offered me the option to
pay the difference for the 6800.


>"me!!" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 15:50:27 -0400, "GTX_SlotCar" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> My 9800 pro give up the ghost yesterday so i got myself a XFX 6800 non
>> >
>> >Did you have a VGA Silencer on it?
>> >My Sapphire 9800Pro died a couple weeks ago (lasted 7 months). ATI and
>> >Sapphire wouldn't fix it, but newegg let me send it back for a
>replacement.
>>
>> No it had the stock cooling, it was a powercolor card. Mine also only
>> lasted 7 months ( purchased in feb ) but overclockers allowed me to
>> return it and pay the extra 35 for the 6800. Was fine before i
>> started paying doom 3.
>> >
>> >> My 3dmark 2001se score has DROPPED!! Its gone from 17,750 down to
>> >> 16,927 with the new card.
>> >> On a more postive note my 3dmark03 score has gone up from 5512 to
>> >> 8535.
>> >That's not unusual. Going from a 9800Pro to an eVGA 6800GT, my 01 score
>> >stayed about the same - 21345. Nature scores went up quite a bit, but
>others
>> >went down some.
>> >In 3dMark03 it went up from 6800 to 12,911.
>> >
>> >6800GT
>> >P4 2.4C at 3.12gHz
>> >Abit AI7
>> >
>> >Gary
>>
>

Judge
September 2nd 04, 11:59 PM
this is all very simple -

ATI = ****!

run, do not walk - from all ATI products.

GTX_SlotCar
September 3rd 04, 02:17 AM
> My gut says overclocked since you cant get them replaced under warranty.
But
> thats why I'm asking.

Mine was OC'd, had a VGA Silencer installed and ramsinks. It was actually an
ATI oem product. It said 'Built by ATI' on it. There were no Sapphire
markings. It had an ATI part number and serial number. Sapphire builds about
75% of the 'Built by ATI' cards. For Sapphire to be able to sell them to
non-system-building retailers, they have to include a Sapphire install cd
and market it under their name. They also market their own Powered by ATI
cards.
They are getting replaced under warranty. ATI wouldn't repair it (even
though they issued an RMA based on the part#) because they said it wasn't
their product. Sapphire sells to dealers who offer a one year warranty, so
it was up to newegg to take care of it. They really can't tell if it's been
OC'd. I took the VGA Silencer off but left the ramsinks on.
This is the 1st ATI product I've owned that's failed. It seems that many of
them had the VGA Silencer on them. I wonder if it's the bracket on the back
of it that created too much pressure on the gpu. The 9800Pro, a few months
ago, was popular like the 6800GT is now (but at half the price). It's still
a good fast card for games like Call of Duty and anything before that.

Gary

--

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

John Lewis
September 3rd 04, 07:17 AM
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:17:32 -0400, "GTX_SlotCar" >
wrote:

>> My gut says overclocked since you cant get them replaced under warranty.
>But
>> thats why I'm asking.
>
>Mine was OC'd, had a VGA Silencer installed and ramsinks. It was actually an
>ATI oem product. It said 'Built by ATI' on it. There were no Sapphire
>markings. It had an ATI part number and serial number. Sapphire builds about
>75% of the 'Built by ATI' cards. For Sapphire to be able to sell them to
>non-system-building retailers, they have to include a Sapphire install cd
>and market it under their name. They also market their own Powered by ATI
>cards.
>They are getting replaced under warranty. ATI wouldn't repair it (even
>though they issued an RMA based on the part#) because they said it wasn't
>their product. Sapphire sells to dealers who offer a one year warranty, so
>it was up to newegg to take care of it. They really can't tell if it's been
>OC'd. I took the VGA Silencer off but left the ramsinks on.
>This is the 1st ATI product I've owned that's failed. It seems that many of
>them had the VGA Silencer on them. I wonder if it's the bracket on the back
>of it that created too much pressure on the gpu. The 9800Pro, a few months
>ago, was popular like the 6800GT is now (but at half the price). It's still
>a good fast card for games like Call of Duty and anything before that.
>
>Gary
>

Does the 9800 Pro have a core-temperature monitor ? If not, you
play Russian roulette, especially if the ambient temperature
(Summer in the N.Hemisphere) is a little warm and the
air-conditioner is set to an economic level. The default heat-sink
and fan on the 9800 series are pitifully small, due to Ati's fixation
on a single-slot solution. Of course, if you put a card in the
adjacent PCI slot, the 9800 is effectively smothered in its
own heat. DO NOT put any card in the adjacent PCI with
ANY of the 9700, 9800, FX5900/50, or 6800 series. You
are just asking for an early death. At least, the FX59xx and
6800 series all have core temp monitors, and I believe that
the 6800 series internally throttles back when the core temp
reaches ~ 90 degrees C.... taking a page out of Intel's CPU
thermal-protection book.

John Lewis


>--
>
>Tweaks & Reviews
>www.slottweak.com
>
>

Chip
September 3rd 04, 03:00 PM
"Judge" > wrote in message
...
> this is all very simple -
>
> ATI = ****!
>
> run, do not walk - from all ATI products.

I am sure we will all consider your advice very seriously Judge. I mean,
with that considered, reasoned argument and all.

Chip

GTX_SlotCar
September 3rd 04, 03:07 PM
> Does the 9800 Pro have a core-temperature monitor ?

No. The 9800 Ultra does, and of course, the 800s do, but 9800s and below do
not. That's why I added the VGA Silencer and ramsinks. In fact, my card
didn't run good without them at stock speeds. It had texture tearing
associated with hot or highly OCd memory and dots or sudden lockups
associated with a hot core. I actually got better benchmarks by
underclocking the card. With the Silencer and ramsinks, I find the highest
OC that is artifact free, then back it down 5 mHz. It's been sort of a "set
it and forget it" thing for me that's worked well. I'm an OC'er, but not a
fanatic (I run my cpu at 3112 because at 3300 I have to bump the voltages up
..25 volts on the cpu and memory).
I've generally never had good luck using PCI slot 1. Sometimes it would be
OK, but usually not. I checked into it a few years back and read somewhere
that it shares steering (or something) with the AGP slot, so it should be
avoided.

Gary
--
Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

llamaboiz
September 3rd 04, 04:45 PM
John Lewis, wow, i never thought i'd actually hear someone say that... its
like saying, i breathe air... this is not ment to be sarcastic towards you
so dont take it as such.

Ppl, i dont know if you understand this or not but heres a quickie on heat.
Heat is bad, therefore you want fans, but which way should the fans blow?
out NOT in, check your cases and forget the match test, open the case and
look, even if you got your rig from some 'botique' pc store, they/case
mafg/who knows, will sometimes mess up the fan direction, if you have 3
fans, 2out/1in or 5 fans, 3out/2in and just follow that raito, fans blowing
in from the bottom front/side window blowing in and EVERYTHING else out, yes
even the fan(s) next to the cpu, have them blow OUT... cut a hole on the top
of your case and add a fan blowing out if you must.
Now as for the adjacent pci slot next to your agp card? Most pc stores have
sometype of pci slot blower, get one and put it in that first slot, i have
an exhaust blower directly ONTOP of my cards fan, yea baby.

btw: ambient heat? im in hawaii, its friken hot here all day everyday, i
have no a/c, open windows, celing fan and space fan blowing out of my
window, im oc'd and at load im at 55c/45c idle, course i have 11
total fans in my case and it sounds like a friken F-4 phantom warming up but
hey, if your card/rig dies cuz of heat that you could've preventend.... its
like a car, you only put gas and never check the oil, get it? STOOPID!

Ed Light
September 3rd 04, 06:49 PM
Some want positive pressure in the case so dust won't come in every little
crack. Others want negative pressure to such everything out and also fresh
air in by every little crack.

So that influences the fan out/fan in ratio.
--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at

Thanks, robots.

llamaboiz
September 3rd 04, 10:47 PM
Positive and negative air pressure in a case something alittle different,
the first priority is heat expulsion, while the only practical benifit of
positive air pressure is dust which will get in anyway, your confusing the
issue for noobs :P

You know, ive been giving my fan ratio advise for years and your the first
person ever to bring up the pos/neg pressure bit. Whew... im not alone in my
geek factor, there are some wannabe geeks who look things up then theres
guys like us, who know these little obscure things off the top of our
heads.... damm, i need a life...

"Ed Light" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Some want positive pressure in the case so dust won't come in every little
> crack. Others want negative pressure to such everything out and also fresh
> air in by every little crack.
>
> So that influences the fan out/fan in ratio.
> --
> Ed Light
>
> Smiley :-/
> MS Smiley :-\
>
> Send spam to the FTC at
>
> Thanks, robots.
>
>

James_
September 4th 04, 02:02 AM
"me!!" > wrote in message ...
> My 9800 pro give up the ghost yesterday so i got myself a XFX 6800 non
> ultra with 325Mhz clock and 750Mhz mem core ( see overclockers.co.uk
> ).
>
> My 3dmark 2001se score has DROPPED!! Its gone from 17,750 down to
> 16,927 with the new card.
>
> On a more postive note my 3dmark03 score has gone up from 5512 to
> 8535.
>
> System
>
> 160gb hdd
> xp3200+ cpu
> 768mb pc3200
> audigy2 zs
> a7n8x-e deluxe mobo.
> plextor px712a dvdrw
>
> What scores are others getting with a simlar setup to me?
>
> paul

I did the same upgrade from 9800 pro to 6800 GT, and I wish I would have never bought the 6800 GT at
this point.

GTX_SlotCar
September 4th 04, 02:46 AM
"llamaboiz" > wrote in a puzzling message:
> .... if you have 3
> fans, 2out/1in or 5 fans, 3out/2in and just follow that raito, ....

Ah, which ratio would that be? 2:1 or 3:2 ?
So, let's say my 2 exhaust fans are 27cfm 80mm fans and my intake fan is a
55 cfm 120mm fan. Wouldn't that throw off the ratio? I mean, it's still 2:1,
but my air pressure is neutral, not negative.
Maybe I should use the 5 fans instead (especially the ones with the pretty
lights). How about two 55 cfm 120s for intake on the side, a couple 27cfm
80s for exhaust on the back and a 35 cfm 90 for the blow hole on top? Oops,
now I have positive air pressure. Hmmm, that didn't work either, but the
pretty lights make up for it.
My case has passive vents on the top. How am I ever going to figure that
into my ratio. Eek, and my PSU has a single 120mm exhaust. What's up with
that??? I think my ratio is 2.31412 to 1 or something like that. Is that OK?
Darn, probably the back of my case is too close to the wall anyway and I'm
creating too much back pressure on the exhaust fans. There must be a
calculation for that, or at least a formula or something.
(I knew I should have paid attention in that aero-tech engineering class.)
I heard of a guy that had 25 case fans in his computer. He turned it on and
it hovered 3" above his desk for a few seconds, popped a couple case screws
and then just blew apart. He said it was scarier than playing Doom 3 on a
stormy night.

Gary
(just havin' a little fun)


--

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

llamaboiz
September 4th 04, 04:36 AM
LOL, thats a good one and dont worry i never got offended... think leaf
blower.... or prometeia....or have your wife sit on your pc, that'll keep it
freezing COLD :P


"GTX_SlotCar" > wrote in message
...
>
> "llamaboiz" > wrote in a puzzling message:
>> .... if you have 3
>> fans, 2out/1in or 5 fans, 3out/2in and just follow that raito, ....
>
> Ah, which ratio would that be? 2:1 or 3:2 ?
> So, let's say my 2 exhaust fans are 27cfm 80mm fans and my intake fan is a
> 55 cfm 120mm fan. Wouldn't that throw off the ratio? I mean, it's still
> 2:1,
> but my air pressure is neutral, not negative.
> Maybe I should use the 5 fans instead (especially the ones with the pretty
> lights). How about two 55 cfm 120s for intake on the side, a couple 27cfm
> 80s for exhaust on the back and a 35 cfm 90 for the blow hole on top?
> Oops,
> now I have positive air pressure. Hmmm, that didn't work either, but the
> pretty lights make up for it.
> My case has passive vents on the top. How am I ever going to figure that
> into my ratio. Eek, and my PSU has a single 120mm exhaust. What's up with
> that??? I think my ratio is 2.31412 to 1 or something like that. Is that
> OK?
> Darn, probably the back of my case is too close to the wall anyway and I'm
> creating too much back pressure on the exhaust fans. There must be a
> calculation for that, or at least a formula or something.
> (I knew I should have paid attention in that aero-tech engineering class.)
> I heard of a guy that had 25 case fans in his computer. He turned it on
> and
> it hovered 3" above his desk for a few seconds, popped a couple case
> screws
> and then just blew apart. He said it was scarier than playing Doom 3 on a
> stormy night.
>
> Gary
> (just havin' a little fun)
>
>
> --
>
> Tweaks & Reviews
> www.slottweak.com
>
>

John Lewis
September 4th 04, 06:17 AM
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 03:36:58 GMT, "llamaboiz" >
wrote:

>LOL, thats a good one and dont worry i never got offended... think leaf
>blower.... or prometeia....or have your wife sit on your pc, that'll keep it
>freezing COLD :P
>

Keeping a little closer to the engineering of cooling solutions
for electronics, beware of slot fans next to VGA board. Check
the air-flow direction of the GPU fan on the VGA board and DO
NOT install a slot fan with an air-flow direction or pattern
that opposes the flow of the on-board GPU fan. Most of the
slot fans that I have seen are radial-flow designs in which the air
enters the center of the fan and exhausts through an
edge-slot in the rear-bracket.The GPU fan on the VGA board
generally forces air down towards the heat sink. If 2
such fans are face-to-face, their air-flows will oppose......

John Lewis

>
>"GTX_SlotCar" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "llamaboiz" > wrote in a puzzling message:
>>> .... if you have 3
>>> fans, 2out/1in or 5 fans, 3out/2in and just follow that raito, ....
>>
>> Ah, which ratio would that be? 2:1 or 3:2 ?
>> So, let's say my 2 exhaust fans are 27cfm 80mm fans and my intake fan is a
>> 55 cfm 120mm fan. Wouldn't that throw off the ratio? I mean, it's still
>> 2:1,
>> but my air pressure is neutral, not negative.
>> Maybe I should use the 5 fans instead (especially the ones with the pretty
>> lights). How about two 55 cfm 120s for intake on the side, a couple 27cfm
>> 80s for exhaust on the back and a 35 cfm 90 for the blow hole on top?
>> Oops,
>> now I have positive air pressure. Hmmm, that didn't work either, but the
>> pretty lights make up for it.
>> My case has passive vents on the top. How am I ever going to figure that
>> into my ratio. Eek, and my PSU has a single 120mm exhaust. What's up with
>> that??? I think my ratio is 2.31412 to 1 or something like that. Is that
>> OK?
>> Darn, probably the back of my case is too close to the wall anyway and I'm
>> creating too much back pressure on the exhaust fans. There must be a
>> calculation for that, or at least a formula or something.
>> (I knew I should have paid attention in that aero-tech engineering class.)
>> I heard of a guy that had 25 case fans in his computer. He turned it on
>> and
>> it hovered 3" above his desk for a few seconds, popped a couple case
>> screws
>> and then just blew apart. He said it was scarier than playing Doom 3 on a
>> stormy night.
>>
>> Gary
>> (just havin' a little fun)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tweaks & Reviews
>> www.slottweak.com
>>
>>
>
>

John Lewis
September 4th 04, 06:22 AM
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:02:49 -0600, "James_" > wrote:

>"me!!" > wrote in message ...
>> My 9800 pro give up the ghost yesterday so i got myself a XFX 6800 non
>> ultra with 325Mhz clock and 750Mhz mem core ( see overclockers.co.uk
>> ).
>>
>> My 3dmark 2001se score has DROPPED!! Its gone from 17,750 down to
>> 16,927 with the new card.
>>
>> On a more postive note my 3dmark03 score has gone up from 5512 to
>> 8535.
>>
>> System
>>
>> 160gb hdd
>> xp3200+ cpu
>> 768mb pc3200
>> audigy2 zs
>> a7n8x-e deluxe mobo.
>> plextor px712a dvdrw
>>
>> What scores are others getting with a simlar setup to me?
>>
>> paul
>
>I did the same upgrade from 9800 pro to 6800 GT, and I wish I would have never bought the 6800 GT at
>this point.
>
>

Er..... why ? Hopefully, not because of some stupid benchmark figure.

Idiots that continue to quote benchmark tests ( especially antiques
like 3D Mark) leave me cold. How about turning on the performance
monitor in Far Cry V1.1 with both cards and giving us some real
figures ?

John Lewis

James_
September 4th 04, 08:39 AM
"John Lewis" > wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:02:49 -0600, "James_" > wrote:
>
> >"me!!" > wrote in message ...
> >> My 9800 pro give up the ghost yesterday so i got myself a XFX 6800 non
> >> ultra with 325Mhz clock and 750Mhz mem core ( see overclockers.co.uk
> >> ).
> >>
> >> My 3dmark 2001se score has DROPPED!! Its gone from 17,750 down to
> >> 16,927 with the new card.
> >>
> >> On a more postive note my 3dmark03 score has gone up from 5512 to
> >> 8535.
> >>
> >> System
> >>
> >> 160gb hdd
> >> xp3200+ cpu
> >> 768mb pc3200
> >> audigy2 zs
> >> a7n8x-e deluxe mobo.
> >> plextor px712a dvdrw
> >>
> >> What scores are others getting with a simlar setup to me?
> >>
> >> paul
> >
> >I did the same upgrade from 9800 pro to 6800 GT, and I wish I would have never bought the 6800 GT
at
> >this point.
> >
> >
>
> Er..... why ? Hopefully, not because of some stupid benchmark figure.
>
> Idiots that continue to quote benchmark tests ( especially antiques
> like 3D Mark) leave me cold. How about turning on the performance
> monitor in Far Cry V1.1 with both cards and giving us some real
> figures ?
>
> John Lewis
>

No, I like 2D to look good as well, and the fonts look like crap in my opinion. I switched font
smoothing from standard to the other option, and that helped a lot. I don't really ever run
benchmarks, except for how games perform when I play them.

Falkentyne
September 4th 04, 12:50 PM
On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:00:20 +0100, "Chip" >
wrote:

>
>"Judge" > wrote in message
...
>> this is all very simple -
>>
>> ATI = ****!
>>
>> run, do not walk - from all ATI products.
>
>I am sure we will all consider your advice very seriously Judge. I mean,
>with that considered, reasoned argument and all.
>
>Chip
>

He's a teenager. Ignore him. Nothing good comes from teenage net
geeks who have no friends in real life.

Just killfile and move on.

Ed Light
September 4th 04, 07:30 PM
"James_" > wrote
> No, I like 2D to look good as well, and the fonts look like crap in my
opinion. I switched font
> smoothing from standard to the other option, and that helped a lot. I
don't really ever run
> benchmarks, except for how games perform when I play them.

http://www.ioisland.com/cleartweak/


--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at

Thanks, robots.

James_
September 4th 04, 09:17 PM
"Ed Light" > wrote in message news:[email protected]
>
> "James_" > wrote
> > No, I like 2D to look good as well, and the fonts look like crap in my
> opinion. I switched font
> > smoothing from standard to the other option, and that helped a lot. I
> don't really ever run
> > benchmarks, except for how games perform when I play them.
>
> http://www.ioisland.com/cleartweak/
>
>
> --
> Ed Light
>
> Smiley :-/
> MS Smiley :-\
>
> Send spam to the FTC at
>
> Thanks, robots.
>
>

Thanks for the link. This looks like it has some promise.

Ed Light
September 4th 04, 09:31 PM
"James_" > wrote
> > http://www.ioisland.com/cleartweak/
> Thanks for the link. This looks like it has some promise.
I hope it helps. You can tweak cleartype to the point where your screen toxt
matches a printout of it.


--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Send spam to the FTC at

Thanks, robots.