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R420
February 19th 04, 03:51 AM
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10364

quote:

"However of more interest was that it appears that ATI's future high
end part R420 made a small appearance. According to Tweakers.net, in a
short part discussing the GDDR-3 graphics memory, which currently has
speeds in the range of 500 - 700MHz (1 - 1.4GHz effective) ATI
demonstrated a demo of the upcoming, DirectX9 heavy title, Colin McRae
Rally 4 on R420, which was quoted as running at 2 - 3 time faster than
present DirectX9 capable hardware. We contacted ATI to verify if this
was R420 and they stated that they had demonstrated the title running
on their future "Next Generation Hardware" which is as good an
confirmation of this being R420 as you can get."

NightSky 421
February 19th 04, 09:29 PM
"R420" > wrote in message
om...
> http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10364
>
> quote:
>
> "However of more interest was that it appears that ATI's future high
> end part R420 made a small appearance. According to Tweakers.net, in a
> short part discussing the GDDR-3 graphics memory, which currently has
> speeds in the range of 500 - 700MHz (1 - 1.4GHz effective) ATI
> demonstrated a demo of the upcoming, DirectX9 heavy title, Colin McRae
> Rally 4 on R420, which was quoted as running at 2 - 3 time faster than
> present DirectX9 capable hardware. We contacted ATI to verify if this
> was R420 and they stated that they had demonstrated the title running
> on their future "Next Generation Hardware" which is as good an
> confirmation of this being R420 as you can get."


I'd be very surprised if the R420 (AGP version) has 2 to 3 times as much
performance as any current offering, but I don't think it's beyond the realm
of possibility for the PCI Express version to be that fast. I originally
heard that the R423 (PCI Express card) was going to be twice as fast as the
9800 Pro. It should be a real screamer regardless!

There are going to be a lot of changes happening to the PC besides PCI
Express within the next year, and I still plan to sit tight on what I have
until the fall of 2005. Since I have a 2.8GHz P4, 1GB of PC-3200 RAM and a
9800 Pro, I should do quite well until the second half of next year. Just
think of what might be out by then! I also expect that there will be a 2nd
or possibly 3rd revision of PCI Express by then too. For sure I'll need to
build a whole new system and no doubt I will really appreciate the
performance boost.

Derek Baker
February 20th 04, 03:25 AM
"NightSky 421" > wrote in message >...
>
> I'd be very surprised if the R420 (AGP version) has 2 to 3 times as much
> performance as any current offering, but I don't think it's beyond the realm
> of possibility for the PCI Express version to be that fast.

Why do you think that the PCI-Express version, R423, will be much
faster than the AGP version, R420?


Derek

NightSky 421
February 20th 04, 04:16 AM
"Derek Baker" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Why do you think that the PCI-Express version, R423, will be much
> faster than the AGP version, R420?
>


New architecture mainly. There was a good article about PCI Express in the
latest issue of Computer Games magazine and info on the Internet as well.

Tony DiMarzio
February 20th 04, 05:36 AM
Sorry, but PCI-E does not offer much of an immediate performance increase,
all other things being equal, over it's AGP based equivalent. Considering
that the AGP bus in a 4x configuration has not even come close to saturation
levels even with the 9800XT pushed to its limits, it would follow that the
increased bus bandwidth of PCI-E won't make much of a difference. It's the
age old tale of upgrading the part that isn't currently the bottleneck...
eg. 512mb of RAM isn't going to do **** for performance in a Pentium 75mhz
as opposed to 128mb RAM.

--
Tony DiMarzio


"NightSky 421" > wrote in message
...
> "Derek Baker" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > Why do you think that the PCI-Express version, R423, will be much
> > faster than the AGP version, R420?
> >
>
>
> New architecture mainly. There was a good article about PCI Express in
the
> latest issue of Computer Games magazine and info on the Internet as well.
>
>

Sham B
February 20th 04, 06:06 AM
> It's the
> age old tale of upgrading the part that isn't currently the bottleneck...
> eg. 512mb of RAM isn't going to do **** for performance in a Pentium 75mhz
> as opposed to 128mb RAM.
>

Absolutely. PCI-E will just increase the throughput from the mobo to/from
the video card. It wont by itself make the video card any faster.
Available throughputs via AGP x8 have not been exceeded on software
available now, and I cant see a reason to upgrade until they do (and the
point that they do is some way off).

PCI-E is a *marketing trick* to differentiate new gfx processors from the
current families, and more importantly, its function is to force a total
upgrade of the system (mobo, processor, memory) when all you really want to
do is upgrade the video card.

The thing that *will* make new gfx processors better is that they can create
better visuals at current frame-rates. I suspect that the new gfx
processors will still be able to do that if they are placed on AGP x8 card
packages, given that the new gfx cards are of the same order of speed
(x2-x3).

And anyway, x2 to x3 seems like not much of an increase to warrant a totally
new system to me, especially when a typical high end card now can output
frame rates faster than my monitor can display them!

I guess the only unknown is DirectX 10 and how current hardware will cope
with it... but, well, a 9500 is directX9...

S

NightSky 421
February 20th 04, 06:49 AM
"Sham B" > wrote in message
t.net...
> > It's the
> > age old tale of upgrading the part that isn't currently the
bottleneck...
> > eg. 512mb of RAM isn't going to do **** for performance in a Pentium
75mhz
> > as opposed to 128mb RAM.
> >
>
> Absolutely. PCI-E will just increase the throughput from the mobo to/from
> the video card. It wont by itself make the video card any faster.
> Available throughputs via AGP x8 have not been exceeded on software
> available now, and I cant see a reason to upgrade until they do (and the
> point that they do is some way off).
>
> PCI-E is a *marketing trick* to differentiate new gfx processors from the
> current families, and more importantly, its function is to force a total
> upgrade of the system (mobo, processor, memory) when all you really want
to
> do is upgrade the video card.
>
> The thing that *will* make new gfx processors better is that they can
create
> better visuals at current frame-rates. I suspect that the new gfx
> processors will still be able to do that if they are placed on AGP x8 card
> packages, given that the new gfx cards are of the same order of speed
> (x2-x3).
>
> And anyway, x2 to x3 seems like not much of an increase to warrant a
totally
> new system to me, especially when a typical high end card now can output
> frame rates faster than my monitor can display them!
>
> I guess the only unknown is DirectX 10 and how current hardware will cope
> with it... but, well, a 9500 is directX9...
>
> S
>


Well, OK, if what you guys are saying is true, then I wonder why PCI Express
is coming out when AGP 8x isn't fully utilized...unless, of course, as you
suggest, that marketing is behind it. Anyway, it's good news for those of
us wanting to hang onto AGP for a while yet.

Tony DiMarzio
February 20th 04, 07:06 AM
The unfortunate answer is...................... yes you guessed it.
Marketing. Lol. I see the same **** happen at the company I work for. Wrap
it in silver packaging and change the name and all of the sudden you have a
new product that you have to shell out more money for.

--
Tony DiMarzio


"NightSky 421" > wrote in message
...
> "Sham B" > wrote in message
> t.net...
> > > It's the
> > > age old tale of upgrading the part that isn't currently the
> bottleneck...
> > > eg. 512mb of RAM isn't going to do **** for performance in a Pentium
> 75mhz
> > > as opposed to 128mb RAM.
> > >
> >
> > Absolutely. PCI-E will just increase the throughput from the mobo
to/from
> > the video card. It wont by itself make the video card any faster.
> > Available throughputs via AGP x8 have not been exceeded on software
> > available now, and I cant see a reason to upgrade until they do (and the
> > point that they do is some way off).
> >
> > PCI-E is a *marketing trick* to differentiate new gfx processors from
the
> > current families, and more importantly, its function is to force a total
> > upgrade of the system (mobo, processor, memory) when all you really want
> to
> > do is upgrade the video card.
> >
> > The thing that *will* make new gfx processors better is that they can
> create
> > better visuals at current frame-rates. I suspect that the new gfx
> > processors will still be able to do that if they are placed on AGP x8
card
> > packages, given that the new gfx cards are of the same order of speed
> > (x2-x3).
> >
> > And anyway, x2 to x3 seems like not much of an increase to warrant a
> totally
> > new system to me, especially when a typical high end card now can output
> > frame rates faster than my monitor can display them!
> >
> > I guess the only unknown is DirectX 10 and how current hardware will
cope
> > with it... but, well, a 9500 is directX9...
> >
> > S
> >
>
>
> Well, OK, if what you guys are saying is true, then I wonder why PCI
Express
> is coming out when AGP 8x isn't fully utilized...unless, of course, as you
> suggest, that marketing is behind it. Anyway, it's good news for those of
> us wanting to hang onto AGP for a while yet.
>
>

tq96
February 20th 04, 07:08 AM
> Well, OK, if what you guys are saying is true, then I wonder why PCI
> Express is coming out when AGP 8x isn't fully utilized...unless, of
There are advantages to PCI Express (like being able to have more than one
slot in the computer) and it'll be good when it's standard. I imagine with
the rollout of the BTX form factor, they're just trying to get a jump on
things.

NightSky 421
February 20th 04, 07:10 AM
"Tony DiMarzio" > wrote in message
...
> The unfortunate answer is...................... yes you guessed it.
> Marketing. Lol. I see the same **** happen at the company I work for. Wrap
> it in silver packaging and change the name and all of the sudden you have
a
> new product that you have to shell out more money for.
>


Heh...that sounds like marketing! Like I say though, PCI Express is not a
hang up for me anyhow since I see myself doing well with what I already have
for some time to come. I still very much look forward to seeing
side-by-side benchmark comparisons betwen an AGP card and the equivalent PCI
Express card on the same processor, etc.. I guess we'll have to wait and
see. :-)

Minotaur
February 20th 04, 10:02 AM
Tony DiMarzio wrote:
> The unfortunate answer is...................... yes you guessed it.
> Marketing. Lol. I see the same **** happen at the company I work for. Wrap
> it in silver packaging and change the name and all of the sudden you have a
> new product that you have to shell out more money for.
>


But still with PCI-E you can put a video card in every slot. I would
imagine, that would be great for some use's :)
Still agree with you on how marketing :D ******s like in legal
but then, not everyone can work in the tech dept!

Minotaur

Michael W. Ryder
February 20th 04, 10:16 AM
NightSky 421 wrote:
> "Sham B" > wrote in message
> t.net...
>
>>>It's the
>>>age old tale of upgrading the part that isn't currently the
>
> bottleneck...
>
>>>eg. 512mb of RAM isn't going to do **** for performance in a Pentium
>
> 75mhz
>
>>>as opposed to 128mb RAM.
>>>
>>
>>Absolutely. PCI-E will just increase the throughput from the mobo to/from
>>the video card. It wont by itself make the video card any faster.
>>Available throughputs via AGP x8 have not been exceeded on software
>>available now, and I cant see a reason to upgrade until they do (and the
>>point that they do is some way off).
>>
>>PCI-E is a *marketing trick* to differentiate new gfx processors from the
>>current families, and more importantly, its function is to force a total
>>upgrade of the system (mobo, processor, memory) when all you really want
>
> to
>
>>do is upgrade the video card.
>>
>>The thing that *will* make new gfx processors better is that they can
>
> create
>
>>better visuals at current frame-rates. I suspect that the new gfx
>>processors will still be able to do that if they are placed on AGP x8 card
>>packages, given that the new gfx cards are of the same order of speed
>>(x2-x3).
>>
>>And anyway, x2 to x3 seems like not much of an increase to warrant a
>
> totally
>
>>new system to me, especially when a typical high end card now can output
>>frame rates faster than my monitor can display them!
>>
>>I guess the only unknown is DirectX 10 and how current hardware will cope
>>with it... but, well, a 9500 is directX9...
>>
>>S
>>
>
>
>
> Well, OK, if what you guys are saying is true, then I wonder why PCI Express
> is coming out when AGP 8x isn't fully utilized...unless, of course, as you
> suggest, that marketing is behind it. Anyway, it's good news for those of
> us wanting to hang onto AGP for a while yet.
>
>
One thing that will make PCI Express better than AGP will be that it
will not have to be backwards compatable. A lot of "compromises" can be
tossed out.

Rick
February 20th 04, 02:32 PM
Is the PCIe intended to replace all PCI slots or will it only replace the
AGP slot? Will the PCIe be fully PCI card compatible? A couple of questions
I'm going to check on the Internet right now. For me I'll put off purchasing
new video cards and mainboards for a short while.

bye, Rick

"Minotaur" > wrote in message
u...
> Tony DiMarzio wrote:
> > The unfortunate answer is...................... yes you guessed it.
> > Marketing. Lol. I see the same **** happen at the company I work for.
Wrap
> > it in silver packaging and change the name and all of the sudden you
have a
> > new product that you have to shell out more money for.
> >
>
>
> But still with PCI-E you can put a video card in every slot. I would
> imagine, that would be great for some use's :)
> Still agree with you on how marketing :D ******s like in legal
> but then, not everyone can work in the tech dept!
>
> Minotaur

J. Clarke
February 22nd 04, 07:20 AM
NightSky 421 wrote:

> "Sham B" > wrote in message
> t.net...
>> > It's the
>> > age old tale of upgrading the part that isn't currently the
> bottleneck...
>> > eg. 512mb of RAM isn't going to do **** for performance in a Pentium
> 75mhz
>> > as opposed to 128mb RAM.
>> >
>>
>> Absolutely. PCI-E will just increase the throughput from the mobo
>> to/from
>> the video card. It wont by itself make the video card any faster.
>> Available throughputs via AGP x8 have not been exceeded on software
>> available now, and I cant see a reason to upgrade until they do (and the
>> point that they do is some way off).
>>
>> PCI-E is a *marketing trick* to differentiate new gfx processors from the
>> current families, and more importantly, its function is to force a total
>> upgrade of the system (mobo, processor, memory) when all you really want
> to
>> do is upgrade the video card.
>>
>> The thing that *will* make new gfx processors better is that they can
> create
>> better visuals at current frame-rates. I suspect that the new gfx
>> processors will still be able to do that if they are placed on AGP x8
>> card packages, given that the new gfx cards are of the same order of
>> speed (x2-x3).
>>
>> And anyway, x2 to x3 seems like not much of an increase to warrant a
> totally
>> new system to me, especially when a typical high end card now can output
>> frame rates faster than my monitor can display them!
>>
>> I guess the only unknown is DirectX 10 and how current hardware will cope
>> with it... but, well, a 9500 is directX9...
>>
>> S
>>
>
>
> Well, OK, if what you guys are saying is true, then I wonder why PCI
> Express is coming out when AGP 8x isn't fully utilized...unless, of
> course, as you
> suggest, that marketing is behind it. Anyway, it's good news for those of
> us wanting to hang onto AGP for a while yet.

FWIW, since it's Intel that is pushing it the notion that it's a scam
perpetrated by the video board manufacturers is kind of silly.

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke
February 22nd 04, 01:45 PM
Minotaur wrote:

> Tony DiMarzio wrote:
>> The unfortunate answer is...................... yes you guessed it.
>> Marketing. Lol. I see the same **** happen at the company I work for.
>> Wrap it in silver packaging and change the name and all of the sudden you
>> have a new product that you have to shell out more money for.
>>
>
>
> But still with PCI-E you can put a video card in every slot.

If you have a server board maybe. The current plan seems to be to have only
one X16 slot with the remainder X1 slots that won't take a video board on
consumer motherboards.

> I would
> imagine, that would be great for some use's :)
> Still agree with you on how marketing :D ******s like in legal
> but then, not everyone can work in the tech dept!
>
> Minotaur

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke
February 22nd 04, 01:55 PM
Rick wrote:

> Is the PCIe intended to replace all PCI slots or will it only replace the
> AGP slot?

Eventually to replace all of them.

> Will the PCIe be fully PCI card compatible?

It uses a different connector--it will not be possible to put any existing
PCI board into a PCI-Express slot. For a while machines will have both PCI
and PCI Express slots--there's talk of some scheme where the PCI Express
connector sits at the end of the PCI connector so either kind of board can
be used but I don't know if that's a plan or a marketing claim.

> A couple of
> questions I'm going to check on the Internet right now. For me I'll put
> off purchasing new video cards and mainboards for a short while.

I wouldn't. It's going to be a while before PCI Express products are
available, and if they work like everything else in the computer industry
has worked the first generation of them will be crap and it won't be until
the first or second bugfix version that they become usable products.

> bye, Rick
>
> "Minotaur" > wrote in message
> u...
>> Tony DiMarzio wrote:
>> > The unfortunate answer is...................... yes you guessed it.
>> > Marketing. Lol. I see the same **** happen at the company I work for.
> Wrap
>> > it in silver packaging and change the name and all of the sudden you
> have a
>> > new product that you have to shell out more money for.
>> >
>>
>>
>> But still with PCI-E you can put a video card in every slot. I would
>> imagine, that would be great for some use's :)
>> Still agree with you on how marketing :D ******s like in legal
>> but then, not everyone can work in the tech dept!
>>
>> Minotaur

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Damaeus
February 25th 04, 01:10 PM
On 20 Feb 2004 00:08:09 -0600, tq96 > posted a message in
news:alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia which read:

> > Well, OK, if what you guys are saying is true, then I wonder why PCI
> > Express is coming out when AGP 8x isn't fully utilized...unless, of
> There are advantages to PCI Express (like being able to have more than one
> slot in the computer) and it'll be good when it's standard. I imagine with
> the rollout of the BTX form factor, they're just trying to get a jump on
> things.

BTX Form Factor? That's the first I heard of this. I hope it's larger. :-)

tq96
February 27th 04, 12:30 AM
> BTX Form Factor? That's the first I heard of this. I hope it's
> larger. :-)

Here's an article about it at Anandtech:
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1876

With all the changes that the form factor will bring, (new case, new PSU,
PCI Express), holding off on serious upgrades might be something to look
into.