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SST
July 4th 03, 04:28 PM
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to
dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to
assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to
which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect
to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes
which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that
among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure
these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of
Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People
to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its
foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence,
indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed
for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn,
that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than
to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the
same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is
their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide
new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance
of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to
alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of
Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having
in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.
To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the
public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing
importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be
obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts
of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation
in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants
only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable,
and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole
purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly
firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to
be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have
returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in
the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and
convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that
purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to
pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions
of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to
Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their
offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of
Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent
of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the
Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our
constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their
Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which
they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province,
establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries
so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the
same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and
altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with
power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and
waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and
destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to
compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with
circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous
ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to
bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends
and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to
bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages,
whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages,
sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the
most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by
repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which
may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have
warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an
unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the
circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to
their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties
of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably
interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the
voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the
necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the
rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in
General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for
the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the
good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these
United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States;
that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that
all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and
ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they
have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish
Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may
of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance
on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our
Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

The 56 signatures on the Declaration appear in the positions indicated:

Column 1
Georgia:
Button Gwinnett
Lyman Hall
George Walton

Column 2
North Carolina:
William Hooper
Joseph Hewes
John Penn
South Carolina:
Edward Rutledge
Thomas Heyward, Jr.
Thomas Lynch, Jr.
Arthur Middleton

Column 3
Massachusetts:
John Hancock
Maryland:
Samuel Chase
William Paca
Thomas Stone
Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia:
George Wythe
Richard Henry Lee
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Harrison
Thomas Nelson, Jr.
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Carter Braxton

Column 4
Pennsylvania:
Robert Morris
Benjamin Rush
Benjamin Franklin
John Morton
George Clymer
James Smith
George Taylor
James Wilson
George Ross
Delaware:
Caesar Rodney
George Read
Thomas McKean

Column 5
New York:
William Floyd
Philip Livingston
Francis Lewis
Lewis Morris
New Jersey:
Richard Stockton
John Witherspoon
Francis Hopkinson
John Hart
Abraham Clark

Column 6
New Hampshire:
Josiah Bartlett
William Whipple
Massachusetts:
Samuel Adams
John Adams
Robert Treat Paine
Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island:
Stephen Hopkins
William Ellery
Connecticut:
Roger Sherman
Samuel Huntington
William Williams
Oliver Wolcott
New Hampshire:
Matthew Thornton

Kai Robinson
July 4th 03, 04:31 PM
Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just for
yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont post
this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.

Happy whatever it is day though...


in article , SST at
wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:

> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah

SST
July 4th 03, 04:40 PM
Oh, its crap?

I see. Where are you from, Kai?


You stupid little person, you must be from France!


"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just
for
> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont
post
> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
>
> Happy whatever it is day though...
>
>
> in article , SST at
> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
>
> > IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
>

One Punch Mickey
July 4th 03, 05:13 PM
Yes! Let's stop eating french fries again! Wait, that would mean we'd have
to stop eating crap junk food! Let's rename them instead! As if we were a
bunch of ****ing 4-year-olds in a schoolyard fight!

--
* -
* - Nicotine, valium, vicadin, marijuana, ecstasy, and alcohol.
* - C-c-c-c-c-cocaine ...
* -

Kai Robinson
July 4th 03, 06:42 PM
Yep. Its Crap. Does it matter where i'm from? If i lived in the US, your
post would STILL have been labeled as crap, because its not some 'isnt a
america great' ng. Stupid? I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as well.
6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too. Go back into that dark little
hole of yours and stop bothering us with your nonsensical babblings...


in article , SST at
wrote on 7/4/03 5:40 pm:

> Oh, its crap?
>
> I see. Where are you from, Kai?
>
>
> You stupid little person, you must be from France!
>
>
> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just
> for
>> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont
> post
>> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
>>
>> Happy whatever it is day though...
>>
>>
>> in article , SST at
>> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
>>
>>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
>>
>
>

Kai Robinson
July 4th 03, 06:57 PM
Haha - well thats america for you - plenty of dumbasses :P

No offence to anyone normal btw, just to drunken morons :D

Kai


in article , Doc at
wrote on 7/4/03 8:06 pm:

> I love July 4th, even though I'm not from the states.
>
> It's always comical to hear about some dumbass blowing half his body parts
> off with fireworks while he was in a drunken stupor.
>
> :
> : doc
> :
> :
> :
> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Yep. Its Crap. Does it matter where i'm from? If i lived in the US, your
>> post would STILL have been labeled as crap, because its not some 'isnt a
>> america great' ng. Stupid? I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as
> well.
>> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too. Go back into that dark
> little
>> hole of yours and stop bothering us with your nonsensical babblings...
>>
>>
>> in article , SST at
>> wrote on 7/4/03 5:40 pm:
>>
>>> Oh, its crap?
>>>
>>> I see. Where are you from, Kai?
>>>
>>>
>>> You stupid little person, you must be from France!
>>>
>>>
>>> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just
>>> for
>>>> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont
>>> post
>>>> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
>>>>
>>>> Happy whatever it is day though...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> in article , SST at
>>>> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
>>>>
>>>>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

HamMan
July 4th 03, 07:44 PM
WARNING: May contain patriotic garbage

TheSingingCat
July 4th 03, 08:21 PM
"SST" > wrote in message
t...
> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
>
> The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

*snip bunch of useless stuff*

That does a lot of good in a videocard NG. Use your melon before you post
all that garbage.

SST
July 4th 03, 08:39 PM
Ooo, I'm shaking! LOL

Hey, **** for brains who cares if your big, fat and stupid. Too bad your
brains aren't in proportion to your body.


Go **** yourself, asshole!



"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> Yep. Its Crap. Does it matter where i'm from? If i lived in the US, your
> post would STILL have been labeled as crap, because its not some 'isnt a
> america great' ng. Stupid? I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as
well.
> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too. Go back into that dark
little
> hole of yours and stop bothering us with your nonsensical babblings...
>
>
> in article , SST at
> wrote on 7/4/03 5:40 pm:
>
> > Oh, its crap?
> >
> > I see. Where are you from, Kai?
> >
> >
> > You stupid little person, you must be from France!
> >
> >
> > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just
> > for
> >> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont
> > post
> >> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
> >>
> >> Happy whatever it is day though...
> >>
> >>
> >> in article , SST at
> >> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
> >>
> >>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
> >>
> >
> >
>

SST
July 4th 03, 08:42 PM
its also about intel, amd and ati chips. read.


"LockheartXP" > wrote in message
e...
> Oh **** off, don't insult the French, Lafayette saved your ass a long time
> ago.
>
> This is a newgroup about Nvidia boards, so what in world does it have to
do
> with what you posted. Bandwith waster.
>
>
> "SST" > a écrit dans le message de
> t...
> > Oh, its crap?
> >
> > I see. Where are you from, Kai?
> >
> >
> > You stupid little person, you must be from France!
> >
> >
> > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum
just
> > for
> > > yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont
> > post
> > > this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
> > >
> > > Happy whatever it is day though...
> > >
> > >
> > > in article , SST at
> > > wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
> > >
> > > > IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

SST
July 4th 03, 08:45 PM
I did.

I love to see all the non-Americans come out in protest of a little
patriotism. its funny as hell and sad at the same time.

Keep it coming!



"TheSingingCat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "SST" > wrote in message
> t...
> > IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
> >
> > The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
>
> *snip bunch of useless stuff*
>
> That does a lot of good in a videocard NG. Use your melon before you post
> all that garbage.
>
>

Wookie
July 4th 03, 09:10 PM
And if not for the freedom and ingenuity of the Americans .. there would be
no precious internet or your frickin' NG's or probably the computer you're
sitting at.
God Bless America

"SST" > wrote in message
t...
> I did.
>
> I love to see all the non-Americans come out in protest of a little
> patriotism. its funny as hell and sad at the same time.
>
> Keep it coming!
>
>
>
> "TheSingingCat" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "SST" > wrote in message
> > t...
> > > IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
> > >
> > > The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
> >
> > *snip bunch of useless stuff*
> >
> > That does a lot of good in a videocard NG. Use your melon before you
post
> > all that garbage.
> >
> >
>
>

SST
July 4th 03, 09:13 PM
BTW: I want to know where your from because I'd like to decide if you
represent your nation or if you're just commie, pink'o moron. I can then
make an honest decision to not travel your nation and urge my congressman
and senators to avoid supporting such nations.

I avoid anything French made or owned and unfortunately I drive a German car
but next time it will most likely be some American owned or dominated
manufacturer.

I do this every year and it always draws the maggots to the surface.

Smile for the camera!


"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> Yep. Its Crap. Does it matter where i'm from? If i lived in the US, your
> post would STILL have been labeled as crap, because its not some 'isnt a
> america great' ng. Stupid? I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as
well.
> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too. Go back into that dark
little
> hole of yours and stop bothering us with your nonsensical babblings...
>
>
> in article , SST at
> wrote on 7/4/03 5:40 pm:
>
> > Oh, its crap?
> >
> > I see. Where are you from, Kai?
> >
> >
> > You stupid little person, you must be from France!
> >
> >
> > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just
> > for
> >> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont
> > post
> >> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
> >>
> >> Happy whatever it is day though...
> >>
> >>
> >> in article , SST at
> >> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
> >>
> >>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
> >>
> >
> >
>

Thor
July 4th 03, 09:13 PM
Isn't it amazing how many people, from so many countries, hate "America" and
the "american way"

and no, don't try and turn it around claiming it is jealousy.
because it is NOT.

I wouldn't be caught living in a country without health care, that forces
its agenda on others, only looks out for its own interests (screw what is
right or wrong), has one of the lowest literacy rates in the developed
world, etc.

Granted there are some intelligent Americans, but most of them keep quiet,
because they are embarrassed about the way their country acts.

Unfortunately the majority are almost as intelligent and well rounded as a
Jerry Springer guest.

Thor
July 4th 03, 09:20 PM
you should write to your congressman and request they propose a bill to
return the Statue of Liberty, that great American symbol....

I think it would look good back in France.

or don't you know your history?

Banjo Dolt
July 4th 03, 09:27 PM
In article >,
says...
> Isn't it amazing how many people, from so many countries, hate "America" and
> the "american way"
> Unfortunately the majority are almost as intelligent and well rounded as a
> Jerry Springer guest.


I am continually amazed that the world seems to judge American on it's
multimedia, and the crap that comes out of Hollywood.


If I were to judge the United Kingdom on the English television I see
here in the states, I would conclude that the English were a bunch of
cross dressing idiots with no sense of humour.

Fortunately, I don't believe everything I see or hear on television.

The fact of the matter is, American has no more or less bigots, zealots,
morons, illiterates, fascists, etc. than any other country. We are
fallible humans, just like the rest of you. Before you sling mud at the
United States, have a look at your own bloody history.

Have a nice day,

Cary F.

SST
July 4th 03, 09:29 PM
Yes, I would. Is it a plagiarized version of ours? I hope so!


"LockheartXP" > wrote in message
e...
> Nothing to do with patriotism. This NG is international, so what if
> everybody here starts posting useless historical info about their own
> country?? Wanna read about the Czech constitution????
>
>
> "SST" > a écrit dans le message de
> t...
> > I did.
> >
> > I love to see all the non-Americans come out in protest of a little
> > patriotism. its funny as hell and sad at the same time.
> >
> > Keep it coming!
> >
> >
> >
> > "TheSingingCat" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "SST" > wrote in message
> > > t...
> > > > IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
> > > >
> > > > The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
> > >
> > > *snip bunch of useless stuff*
> > >
> > > That does a lot of good in a videocard NG. Use your melon before you
> post
> > > all that garbage.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Tom Lake
July 4th 03, 09:37 PM
> Nothing to do with patriotism. This NG is international, so what if
> everybody here starts posting useless historical info about their own
> country?? Wanna read about the Czech constitution????

Yes, I would! I'd like to learn about any country on its special day.

Tom Lake

SST
July 4th 03, 09:40 PM
Oh my god. Its amazing how so many people like you have absolutely no idea
what you talking about.

You are obviously more stupid then the red-necks from West Virginia if you
actually believe what you just said.

Very sad too hear such inaccurate nonsense.



"Thor" > wrote in message
a...
> Isn't it amazing how many people, from so many countries, hate "America"
and
> the "american way"
>
> and no, don't try and turn it around claiming it is jealousy.
> because it is NOT.
>
> I wouldn't be caught living in a country without health care, that forces
> its agenda on others, only looks out for its own interests (screw what is
> right or wrong), has one of the lowest literacy rates in the developed
> world, etc.
>
> Granted there are some intelligent Americans, but most of them keep quiet,
> because they are embarrassed about the way their country acts.
>
> Unfortunately the majority are almost as intelligent and well rounded as a
> Jerry Springer guest.
>
>
>
>

SST
July 4th 03, 09:46 PM
Unfortunately I do. I live less then 50 miles from it and have seen it
10,000 times.

She has a big nose and hairy arm pits!

Come get her if you want.


"Thor" > wrote in message
a...
> you should write to your congressman and request they propose a bill to
> return the Statue of Liberty, that great American symbol....
>
> I think it would look good back in France.
>
> or don't you know your history?
>
>

Dan
July 4th 03, 09:53 PM
Bingo it is assholes like you that cause all these other nations to hate
America.

"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message ...
>
> There probably wouldn't even be an internet or computers if it weren't for
> the United States. There probably wouldn't be a helluva lotta things.
>
> If you dislike 'US" tough. We are making the world a better place-one
> sandbox and rice paddy at a time.
>
> PS: Yo fatass KAI. I have a temper too. Goes well with my formal Army
> training. In short, shut your piehole.
>
> neopolaris
> ex-grunt
> E-3-1
>
>

Paul Turnbull
July 4th 03, 09:59 PM
"SST" > wrote in message
t...
> I did.
>
> I love to see all the non-Americans come out in protest of a little
> patriotism. its funny as hell and sad at the same time.
>
> Keep it coming!

Prat.

But if it means that you only contribute to these newsgroups once a year,
then that's fine.

Dave
July 4th 03, 10:22 PM
"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> Haha - well thats america for you - plenty of dumbasses :P

Please keep the stereotyping to a minimum...that is unless you would like us
Americans to typify France as a bunch of unwashed, pungent, elitist
snail-eating Socialists with poor drinking water, strange sexual
proclivities, sharper class distinctions, a history of arrogant aristocratic
inbreeding monarchy, and a far lower standard of living, due in no small
part of late to Chameleon Bonaparte's little oil deal with Saddam falling
thru...which clearly does not apply to everyone in France. The number of
dumbasses per capita is a GLOBAL demographic, spanning all social strata.
Factor in population growth and we can naturally see stupidity propagating
at a near-exponential rate...

Honi soit qui merde y pense...


> No offence to anyone normal btw, just to drunken morons :D

Hey, I know Norm and Al. And no, they aren't living together. Only in France
;-) (and SF, Greenwich Village, Ogunquit, ME, and P-town which is south of
my position both literally and metaphorically). Normality is the idea of
consensus perpetuated by weak-minded, mediocre, insecure sheep who need to
feel like they're part of something larger than the limited scope of their
self-awareness. When you consider my above assertion, namely that most
people are indeed stupid (only the top 10% actually have any noteworthy
intellect, statistically speaking), then I guess it thus follows that
"normality" is pretty much dumb all over...and a little ugly on the side ;-)
Never mind SST. He's another "Nvidia Dude". He is an obsessive/compulsive,
shallow, insecure materialist with a melodramatic flair and a history of
cyclical abuse. I think his fat wife left him not too long ago as well. He
was told this would happen if he didn't take his meds and well, he didn't
take his meds and this happened. He's mostly ok while his dope supply lasts,
it's just been a little dry lately...

>
> Kai
>
>
> in article , Doc at
> wrote on 7/4/03 8:06 pm:
>
> > I love July 4th, even though I'm not from the states.
> >
> > It's always comical to hear about some dumbass blowing half his body
parts
> > off with fireworks while he was in a drunken stupor.
> >
> > :
> > : doc
> > :
> > :
> > :
> > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Yep. Its Crap. Does it matter where i'm from? If i lived in the US,
your
> >> post would STILL have been labeled as crap, because its not some 'isnt
a
> >> america great' ng. Stupid? I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as
> > well.
> >> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too. Go back into that dark
> > little
> >> hole of yours and stop bothering us with your nonsensical babblings...
> >>
> >>
> >> in article , SST at
> >> wrote on 7/4/03 5:40 pm:
> >>
> >>> Oh, its crap?
> >>>
> >>> I see. Where are you from, Kai?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You stupid little person, you must be from France!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum
just
> >>> for
> >>>> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please
dont
> >>> post
> >>>> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Happy whatever it is day though...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> in article , SST at
> >>>> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
> >>>>
> >>>>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>

Martin Eriksson
July 4th 03, 10:24 PM
Well just wait until I post the Swedish "constitution" on our national day.
I guess "your" constitution is a plagialized version of ours...

*PLONK*

/M

TheSingingCat
July 4th 03, 10:27 PM
"Wookie" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> And if not for the freedom and ingenuity of the Americans .. there would
be
> no precious internet or your frickin' NG's or probably the computer you're
> sitting at.
> God Bless America
>

Patriotism is great, it is what makes a nation strong -- no question about
it. However, I'm sure there are plenty of newsgroups where that would be
appropriate. A huge post in a videocard NG isn't appropriate.

As for the ingenuity and freedom of Americans, that was never in dispute nor
question so I'm uncertain why you even bring that up. As for the computer
I'm sitting at, it's a Toshiba made in Japan, I'm sure they are quite
ingenious and inventive as well. I'd have great difficulty in believing
that without US contributions to the computing world we would not have
computers.

Martin Eriksson
July 4th 03, 10:28 PM
"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just
for
> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont
post
> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
>
> Happy whatever it is day though...

Wow... I mean... not even csipgf-s has yet posted any 4th of july
messages... must mean that this (original) message is just trolling.

/M

Frode
July 4th 03, 10:28 PM
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dave wrote:
>> Haha - well thats america for you - plenty of dumbasses :P
> Please keep the stereotyping to a minimum...that is unless you would like
> us Americans to typify France as a bunch of unwashed,

That's not typifying, it's a fact. France has the lowest consumption of
hygiene products in europe as well as the highest consumption of perfume.


- --
Frode

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Version: PGP 8.0.2

iQA/AwUBPwXxlOXlGBWTt1afEQKcmQCgoguO4P5tE6ysDiCp7ICcBn 4wmJ4An3Ws
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Daemon Rose
July 4th 03, 10:49 PM
> Oh and i'm far from little as well.
> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too.

Good....then go eat another ****ing pound of escargot or something.

--
Daemon Rose

Daemon Rose
July 4th 03, 10:56 PM
> And if not for the freedom and ingenuity of the Americans .. there would
be
> no precious internet or your frickin' NG's or probably the computer you're
> sitting at.

Yeah, just where do these people get off talking about Americans like that
anyway? Don't they know Al Gore invented the Internet?

--
Daemon Rose

Daemon Rose
July 4th 03, 11:23 PM
> Isn't it amazing how many people, from so many countries, hate "America"
and
> the "american way"

Even more amazing is that many of these same countries have no problem
accepting millions of U.S. dollars in foreign aid and will obviously expect
us to deal with the next dictator like Hitler or Hussein when they start
getting carried away and invade other countries.

> Unfortunately the majority are almost as intelligent and well rounded as a
> Jerry Springer guest.

So you believe everthing you see on T.V.? Well that explains everything!

--
Daemon Rose

OldfartJC
July 4th 03, 11:34 PM
I didn't realize you Canadians in Alberta hated us that much. My friends in
Edmonton always like to come to the U.S. to buy stuff at much cheaper prices
than they can in Canada. Must be all your liberal laws that causes
everything to be so expensive or maybe it's your great healthcare system
which probably taxes you to death, which means you wouldn't need healthcare
for very long.

"Dan" > wrote in message
a...
> Bingo it is assholes like you that cause all these other nations to hate
> America.
>
> "neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
...
> >
> > There probably wouldn't even be an internet or computers if it weren't
for
> > the United States. There probably wouldn't be a helluva lotta things.
> >
> > If you dislike 'US" tough. We are making the world a better place-one
> > sandbox and rice paddy at a time.
> >
> > PS: Yo fatass KAI. I have a temper too. Goes well with my formal Army
> > training. In short, shut your piehole.
> >
> > neopolaris
> > ex-grunt
> > E-3-1
> >
> >
>
>

Thor
July 5th 03, 12:12 AM
I'm not quite sure where you think I am from..

but..

I'll give you a hint.

I live in a country that doesn't start wars, altho the last war we fought
on our turf we won. and kicked the ass of the country we were fighting.. In
fact we burnt down their capitol city and government buildings.. I think it
was called the white house!

Steve Trussing
July 5th 03, 12:14 AM
x-no-archive: yes

TheSingingCat > wrote:

> "Wookie" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> And if not for the freedom and ingenuity of the Americans .. there
>> would be no precious internet or your frickin' NG's or probably the
>> computer you're sitting at.
>
> As for the ingenuity and freedom of Americans, that was never in
> dispute nor question so I'm uncertain why you even bring that up. As
> for the computer I'm sitting at, it's a Toshiba made in Japan, I'm
> sure they are quite ingenious and inventive as well.

There is a great difference between taking the ball and running with it,
and inventing the ball and the field you use it on in the first place.

> I'd have great
> difficulty in believing that without US contributions to the
> computing world we would not have computers.

Don't kid yourself:

** World's first operational, general-purpose, electronic computer:
ENIAC (Electrical Numerical Integrator And Calculator, U.S. Patent
#3,120,606), University of Pennsylvania, USA, 1946

** First-ever high-level computer programming language: FORTRAN, USA,
1954 (released in 1957)

** Invention of the transistor, Bell Telephone Laboratories, USA, 1956

** Invention of Integrated Circuit (IC, U.S. Patents #3,138,743 and
#2,981,877), Jack Kilby and Robert Noyce, USA, 1958-59

** First-ever computer game: Spacewar, MIT, USA, 1962

** Invention of portable calculator, Jack Kilby, USA, 1967

** Foundation of the Internet: ARPAnet, UCLA and Stanford, USA, 1969

** First DRAM chip: Intel 1103, USA, 1970

** World's first single-chip microprocessor: Intel 4004 (U.S. Patent
#3,821,715), USA, 1971

** First "memory disk" (the floppy), IBM, USA, 1971
(Sony did later develop the 3 1/2" floppy. Woohoo! Thanks for
finally taking the ball and running with it!)

** Invention of Ethernet, Robert Metcalfe (Xerox), USA, 1973

** First-ever advertised personal computer (QST magazine): Scelbi
(SCientific, ELectronic and BIological), Milford, Connecticut, USA, 1974

** First-ever minicomputer kit (Popular Electronics magazine): Altair,
Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA, 1975

** The first IBM-based portable computer: IBM 5100, USA, 1975

** The first Apple: Apple I, USA, 1976

** First small-computer modem, Dennis Hayes, USA, 1977

** First IBM PC operating system, MS-DOS (adapted from QDOS), USA, 1981

** First-ever GUI environment for the PC: VisiOn, VisiCorp, USA, 1982

** The software that provided a platform to propel PCs into millions of
homes: Microsoft Windows, USA, 1985
(This is where Microsoft bashers pretend that the anti-competitive
business practices of Microsoft take away from their contributions to
the small computer platform.)

** Still the world's #1 desktop microprocessor maker: Intel, Santa
Clara, CA, USA

** Still the world's #2 desktop microprocessor maker: AMD, Sunnyvale,
CA, USA

And this is leaving out a HELL of a lot of stuff I just didn't feel like
putting down here.

<sarcasm up the ass>
Yeah, you're right; that's not significant. Take away the world's first
computer, first high-level programming language, the transistor, the IC,
DRAM, single-chip microprocessors, the calculator, computer games,
modems, Ethernet, personal computers, GUI operating systems, Intel, AMD,
and the Internet, and we'd still be where we are today. Oh sure. "More
crack here, please!"
</sarcasm up the ass>

This isn't intended to decry contributions from other countries; it's
giving credit where it's due. Japanese computer firms made great
contributions later on, and the vacuum tube was developed in England.
Not to mention that none of the aforementioned technology occurred in a
vacuum (no pun intended).

Let's read that again, shall we? I said: This isn't saying "Other
countries did nothing", it's saying "The USA did A LOT".

--
Indeed I am.
Well, you're right about that.
Because it runs counter to the way we read!
Why do you hate top posting so much?

yugsdrawkcab
July 5th 03, 12:17 AM
X-No-Archive: Yes

OldfartJC wrote:

> I didn't realize you Canadians in Alberta hated us that much. My friends in
> Edmonton always like to come to the U.S. to buy stuff at much cheaper prices
> than they can in Canada. Must be all your liberal laws that causes
> everything to be so expensive or maybe it's your great healthcare system
> which probably taxes you to death, which means you wouldn't need healthcare
> for very long.
>

I can't speak for all Canadians, but I can say that personally I don't
hate Americans.. I laugh at them. The education system is weak simply to
make the country a group of chest beating lemmings that feel they have
the right to dictate a way of life to anyone they please.

Steve Trussing
July 5th 03, 12:21 AM
x-no-archive: yes

Thor > wrote:

> Isn't it amazing how many people, from so many countries, hate
> "America" and the "american way"
>
> and no, don't try and turn it around claiming it is jealousy.
> because it is NOT.
>
> I wouldn't be caught living in a country without health care, that
> forces its agenda on others, only looks out for its own interests
> (screw what is right or wrong), has one of the lowest literacy rates
> in the developed world, etc.
>
> Granted there are some intelligent Americans, but most of them keep
> quiet, because they are embarrassed about the way their country acts.
>
> Unfortunately the majority are almost as intelligent and well rounded
> as a Jerry Springer guest.

So, if you were born an American, you'd run off to some foreign land as
a child? Or you'd wait until you were older, and abandon your family,
and everything else you ever knew?

America doesn't have health care? Huh? I could have sworn I drove past
several hospitals the other day. And when my wife delivered my daughter
8 months ago, I could have sworn that was a doctor that delivered her.
Hmmm, funny. Oh--you mean we don't have SOCIALIZED health care! Oh,
right. And we all know how wonderful government-sponsered health care
is. Now, you tell me what country has the BEST health care technology
in the world. Take all the time you need.

To say that "the majority" of Americans are idiots is just plain stupid.
I think you'd have to be pretty irrational to make such a sweeping
statement about 150,000,000 people you haven't met (i.e. >50% of
Americans).

--
Indeed I am.
Well, you're right about that.
Because it runs counter to the way we read!
Why do you hate top posting so much?

Steve Trussing
July 5th 03, 12:24 AM
x-no-archive: yes

So, where was the first computer and first personal computer invented,
and where did the Internet originate?

The United States of America.

Andy Cunningham > wrote:

> Neither of those were invented by the USA. Though french fries were.
>
> "neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> There probably wouldn't even be an internet or computers if it
>> weren't for the United States. There probably wouldn't be a helluva
>> lotta things.
>>
>> If you dislike 'US" tough. We are making the world a better
>> place-one sandbox and rice paddy at a time.
>>
>> PS: Yo fatass KAI. I have a temper too. Goes well with my formal
>> Army training. In short, shut your piehole.
>>
>> neopolaris
>> ex-grunt
>> E-3-1



--
Indeed I am.
Well, you're right about that.
Because it runs counter to the way we read!
Why do you hate top posting so much?

Steve Trussing
July 5th 03, 12:25 AM
x-no-archive: yes

Thor > wrote:

> I'm not quite sure where you think I am from..
>
> but..
>
> I'll give you a hint.
>
> I live in a country that doesn't start wars

Little ****ants don't start fights in the schoolyard, either.

--
Indeed I am.
Well, you're right about that.
Because it runs counter to the way we read!
Why do you hate top posting so much?

PRIVATE1964
July 5th 03, 12:30 AM
If thats true then why are so many people trying to get into this country? This
country offers a lot more then most....first on the list would be freedom.

I am not here to defend the original post. I don't think this newsgroup was the
right place to post it, but I wouldn't attack it either even if it was related
to different country.

I have seen multiple posts from a lot of people and all I have to say is "What
a waste of time!" People fighting over such petty things when the time could be
put to some better use. Your all a bunch of morons fighting about such stupid
things. Happy Birthday US, Happy whatever to everyone else also out there in
other countries.

Dave
July 5th 03, 12:41 AM
"Frode" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Dave wrote:
> >> Haha - well thats america for you - plenty of dumbasses :P
> > Please keep the stereotyping to a minimum...that is unless you would
like
> > us Americans to typify France as a bunch of unwashed,
>
> That's not typifying, it's a fact. France has the lowest consumption of
> hygiene products in europe as well as the highest consumption of perfume.


Merde! Zat izz vhy zee Franch weemen zey smell so..uhh fonny down zere? Zat
iss vhy "zee eetch needs to be scratched" so often? I guess zis is vhy
France ees zee #1 exporter of zee fragrances d'amour? "Nos culottes salies
sont l'épitomé de l'haute couture!" aww, I can't be hittin' below the belt!
I apologize in advance for my crudity! Mon Dieu, quel cochon je suis! Pomme
de rue!

I keep flashing back to Mel Brooks "History Of The World Part 1": "You look
like zee ****-boy!..." or some MPTHG:


http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Sounds/HolyGrail.wav/myob.wav

http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Sounds/aiff/french.aiff

http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Sounds/HolyGrail.wav/kniggits.wav ...

.... http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Sounds/HolyGrail.wav/taunt.wav

aj
July 5th 03, 01:07 AM
> Granted there are some intelligent Americans

Where ?????

aj
July 5th 03, 01:13 AM
I'm still waiting to hear from those
> weapons of mass destruction btw.....

There are !!!
In the USA !!!

aj
July 5th 03, 01:16 AM
> I am continually amazed that the world seems to judge American on it's
> multimedia, and the crap that comes out of Hollywood.

No, the world judges america for the bombd falling in their homes...

yugsdrawkcab
July 5th 03, 02:02 AM
X-No-Archive: Yes

Daemon Rose wrote:

>>I can't speak for all Canadians, but I can say that personally I don't
>>hate Americans.. I laugh at them.
>
>
> Good, because that's all you Canadians can do. I hope it's enough for you.
>
All of our buildings are still standing... Yours?

Wolfram Nickl
July 5th 03, 02:24 AM
Hi! Stupid Question from an Austrian:

What has all this to do with overclocking??

Wolfram

ceedee
July 5th 03, 02:26 AM
The intelligent ones leave the USA and live elsewhere ;)

ceedee


"aj" > wrote in message
...
> > Granted there are some intelligent Americans
>
> Where ?????
>
>

Dave
July 5th 03, 02:36 AM
"Steve Trussing" > wrote in message
...
> x-no-archive: yes

(lot of good stuff snipped)

> ** First "memory disk" (the floppy), IBM, USA, 1971
> (Sony did later develop the 3 1/2" floppy. Woohoo! Thanks for
> finally taking the ball and running with it!)

Those 8" floppies were definitely getting a bit cumbersome. Boot times
sucked too! Half a pack of cigarettes later we have a blinking cursor on the
ol' Trash 80...bleh!

And remember having to punch a cutout on the DD 5 1/4 disks to be able to
store stuff on the other side? Or trying to format 1.2 meg disks for use in
360K drives? I certainly do. And CP/M and BASIC, and IBM's MCA debacle...and
the PC Jr that was obsolete practically the moment after it was overpaid
for...those were the days.

> ** First-ever minicomputer kit (Popular Electronics magazine): Altair,
> Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA, 1975

I remember seeing them in Heathkit catalogs not too long afterward...:-)

Daemon Rose
July 5th 03, 02:38 AM
> All of our buildings are still standing... Yours?

Are you insinuating the Canadians were responsible for that, ****wit?

As your comment indicates, Canadians aren't smart enough to pull something
like that off. Even if they were though, America would have the Canadian
military (Canada does have a military, right?...LOL) on it's knees in about
two hours, so keep laughing. Sounds like you've chuckled yourself right
into a stupor.

Snap out of it.

--
Daemon Rose

Daemon Rose
July 5th 03, 02:43 AM
> > Granted there are some intelligent Americans
>
> Where ?????

As evidenced by "aj", nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they
can't understand.

--
Daemon Rose

Daemon Rose
July 5th 03, 02:46 AM
> The intelligent ones leave the USA and live elsewhere ;)

Does your conventional view serve to protect you from the painful job of
thinking?

--
Daemon Rose

SST
July 5th 03, 02:51 AM
this NG gets hundreds of post every day, my one simple post (well maybe two)
is insignificant and could have gotten not a single reply for all I cared.


"Paul Turnbull" > wrote in message
...
> "SST" > wrote in message
> t...
> > I did.
> >
> > I love to see all the non-Americans come out in protest of a little
> > patriotism. its funny as hell and sad at the same time.
> >
> > Keep it coming!
>
> Prat.
>
> But if it means that you only contribute to these newsgroups once a year,
> then that's fine.
>
>
>
>

SST
July 5th 03, 02:51 AM
yup and in Great Britain, France, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Israel but
not in Iraq, fortunately.


"aj" > wrote in message
...
> I'm still waiting to hear from those
> > weapons of mass destruction btw.....
>
> There are !!!
> In the USA !!!
>
>

aj
July 5th 03, 02:58 AM
> As evidenced by "aj", nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they
> can't understand.
>
> --
> Daemon Rose


Deep...

bp
July 5th 03, 03:00 AM
On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 19:57:36 +0200, Kai Robinson
> wrote:

>Haha - well thats america for you - plenty of dumbasses :P
>
>No offence to anyone normal btw, just to drunken morons :D
>
>Kai

No drunk morons where you live ?


>
>
>in article , Doc at
wrote on 7/4/03 8:06 pm:
>
>> I love July 4th, even though I'm not from the states.
>>
>> It's always comical to hear about some dumbass blowing half his body parts
>> off with fireworks while he was in a drunken stupor.
>>
>> :
>> : doc
>> :
>> :
>> :
>> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Yep. Its Crap. Does it matter where i'm from? If i lived in the US, your
>>> post would STILL have been labeled as crap, because its not some 'isnt a
>>> america great' ng. Stupid? I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as
>> well.
>>> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too. Go back into that dark
>> little
>>> hole of yours and stop bothering us with your nonsensical babblings...
>>>
>>>
>>> in article , SST at
>>> wrote on 7/4/03 5:40 pm:
>>>
>>>> Oh, its crap?
>>>>
>>>> I see. Where are you from, Kai?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You stupid little person, you must be from France!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just
>>>> for
>>>>> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont
>>>> post
>>>>> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Happy whatever it is day though...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> in article , SST at
>>>>> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
>>>>>
>>>>>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>

bp
July 5th 03, 03:07 AM
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 15:27:05 -0600, "TheSingingCat"
> wrote:

>
>Patriotism is great, it is what makes a nation strong -- no question about
>it. However, I'm sure there are plenty of newsgroups where that would be
>appropriate. A huge post in a videocard NG isn't appropriate.

So what ?
****ing chill out!
No one made you read it.

Later Puss n Boots

Dave
July 5th 03, 03:11 AM
"bp" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 19:42:51 +0200, Kai Robinson
> > wrote:
>
> > I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as well.
> >6foot4 with a ****ing great temper.
>
> Isn't the internet great ! You can be anything you want.
> BTW I'm 7'2" 290 Lbs of pure muscle . You feel'en lucky puck ? Well
> are you? God I hate little people ;)

Hey, Botth! Mr Rourke (M'sieur Scaramanga!)! Whatchoo got against little
people, m'sieu? Careful whatchoo say m'sieu! Our midget troupe will pay you
a veesit and make you perform unnatural acts on film for fetish collectors!

bp
July 5th 03, 03:12 AM
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 22:12:29 +0200, "LockheartXP" > wrote:

>Nothing to do with patriotism. This NG is international, so what if
>everybody here starts posting useless historical info about their own
>country?? Wanna read about the Czech constitution????

Will this American is smart enough not to read post I don't want to
read.
Aren't you ?

bp
July 5th 03, 03:15 AM
On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 01:24:10 GMT, "Wolfram Nickl"
> wrote:

>Hi! Stupid Question from an Austrian:
>
>What has all this to do with overclocking??
If you read it you would have seen the section on over clocking
butter churns
>
>Wolfram
>

bp
July 5th 03, 03:33 AM
On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 01:02:04 GMT, yugsdrawkcab > wrote:

>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Daemon Rose wrote:
>
>>>I can't speak for all Canadians, but I can say that personally I don't
>>>hate Americans.. I laugh at them.
>>
>>
>> Good, because that's all you Canadians can do. I hope it's enough for you.
>>
>All of our buildings are still standing... Yours?

Well you've just shown yourself to be a total ass hole. I bet you
don't have the guts to walk down a NY city street and say that **** ?

bp
July 5th 03, 03:37 AM
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 01:07:31 +0100, "aj" > wrote:

>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
>
>Where ?????
>
****ing your mother loser.

Allan Laws
July 5th 03, 03:47 AM
Why would anyone celebrate the birth of the biggest pack of arseholes on the
planet.


SST > wrote in message
t...
> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
>
> The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
>
> When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to
> dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and
to
> assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to
> which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent
respect
> to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes
> which impel them to the separation.
>
> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
> that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that
> among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to
secure
> these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
> powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of
> Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the
People
> to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its
> foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as
to
> them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
Prudence,
> indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be
changed
> for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn,
> that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than
> to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
> But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the
> same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it
is
> their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to
provide
> new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient
sufferance
> of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to
> alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King
of
> Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all
having
> in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these
States.
> To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
>
> He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for
the
> public good.
> He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing
> importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be
> obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to
them.
> He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts
> of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of
Representation
> in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants
> only.
> He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual,
uncomfortable,
> and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole
> purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
> He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly
> firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
> He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others
to
> be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation,
have
> returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in
> the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and
> convulsions within.
> He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that
> purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to
> pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the
conditions
> of new Appropriations of Lands.
> He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to
> Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
> He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their
> offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
> He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of
> Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
> He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the
Consent
> of our legislatures.
> He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the
> Civil power.
> He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our
> constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their
> Acts of pretended Legislation:
> For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
> For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders
which
> they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
> For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
> For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
> For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
> For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
> For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province,
> establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries
> so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing
the
> same absolute rule into these Colonies:
> For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and
> altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
> For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested
with
> power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
> He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection
and
> waging War against us.
> He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and
> destroyed the lives of our people.
> He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to
> compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with
> circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most
barbarous
> ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
> He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to
> bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their
friends
> and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
> He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to
> bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages,
> whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all
ages,
> sexes and conditions.
>
> In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the
> most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by
> repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act
which
> may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
>
> Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have
> warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend
an
> unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the
> circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to
> their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the
ties
> of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would
inevitably
> interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to
the
> voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in
the
> necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the
> rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
>
> We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in
> General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world
for
> the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the
> good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these
> United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States;
> that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that
> all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is
and
> ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States,
they
> have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish
> Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may
> of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance
> on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other
our
> Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
> The 56 signatures on the Declaration appear in the positions indicated:
>
> Column 1
> Georgia:
> Button Gwinnett
> Lyman Hall
> George Walton
>
> Column 2
> North Carolina:
> William Hooper
> Joseph Hewes
> John Penn
> South Carolina:
> Edward Rutledge
> Thomas Heyward, Jr.
> Thomas Lynch, Jr.
> Arthur Middleton
>
> Column 3
> Massachusetts:
> John Hancock
> Maryland:
> Samuel Chase
> William Paca
> Thomas Stone
> Charles Carroll of Carrollton
> Virginia:
> George Wythe
> Richard Henry Lee
> Thomas Jefferson
> Benjamin Harrison
> Thomas Nelson, Jr.
> Francis Lightfoot Lee
> Carter Braxton
>
> Column 4
> Pennsylvania:
> Robert Morris
> Benjamin Rush
> Benjamin Franklin
> John Morton
> George Clymer
> James Smith
> George Taylor
> James Wilson
> George Ross
> Delaware:
> Caesar Rodney
> George Read
> Thomas McKean
>
> Column 5
> New York:
> William Floyd
> Philip Livingston
> Francis Lewis
> Lewis Morris
> New Jersey:
> Richard Stockton
> John Witherspoon
> Francis Hopkinson
> John Hart
> Abraham Clark
>
> Column 6
> New Hampshire:
> Josiah Bartlett
> William Whipple
> Massachusetts:
> Samuel Adams
> John Adams
> Robert Treat Paine
> Elbridge Gerry
> Rhode Island:
> Stephen Hopkins
> William Ellery
> Connecticut:
> Roger Sherman
> Samuel Huntington
> William Williams
> Oliver Wolcott
> New Hampshire:
> Matthew Thornton
>
>
>

SST
July 5th 03, 04:21 AM
I agree!



"grahamilton" <graham_hamilton{at}msn.com> wrote in message
...
> God Bless Everyone.
>
>

SST
July 5th 03, 04:23 AM
Yeah but beware of the Canadian Navy!


"Daemon Rose" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> > All of our buildings are still standing... Yours?
>
> Are you insinuating the Canadians were responsible for that, ****wit?
>
> As your comment indicates, Canadians aren't smart enough to pull something
> like that off. Even if they were though, America would have the Canadian
> military (Canada does have a military, right?...LOL) on it's knees in
about
> two hours, so keep laughing. Sounds like you've chuckled yourself right
> into a stupor.
>
> Snap out of it.
>
> --
> Daemon Rose
>
>

Z28
July 5th 03, 04:26 AM
Well your a moron, speaking of body parts, was your brain blown away with
the applause of your comedic nonsense?

"Doc" > wrote in message
s.com...
> I love July 4th, even though I'm not from the states.
>
> It's always comical to hear about some dumbass blowing half his body parts
> off with fireworks while he was in a drunken stupor.
>
> :
> : doc
> :
> :
> :
> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Yep. Its Crap. Does it matter where i'm from? If i lived in the US, your
> > post would STILL have been labeled as crap, because its not some 'isnt a
> > america great' ng. Stupid? I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as
> well.
> > 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too. Go back into that dark
> little
> > hole of yours and stop bothering us with your nonsensical babblings...
> >
> >
> > in article , SST at
> > wrote on 7/4/03 5:40 pm:
> >
> > > Oh, its crap?
> > >
> > > I see. Where are you from, Kai?
> > >
> > >
> > > You stupid little person, you must be from France!
> > >
> > >
> > > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum
just
> > > for
> > >> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please
dont
> > > post
> > >> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
> > >>
> > >> Happy whatever it is day though...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> in article , SST at
> > >> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
> > >>
> > >>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

SST
July 5th 03, 04:30 AM
http://www.dsv.su.se/jpalme/society/swedish-attempts.html


"Martin Eriksson" > wrote in message
...
> Well just wait until I post the Swedish "constitution" on our national
day.
> I guess "your" constitution is a plagialized version of ours...
>
> *PLONK*
>
> /M
>
>

SST
July 5th 03, 04:31 AM
Absolutely nothing!

Did you need to ask that question?



"Wolfram Nickl" > wrote in message
...
> Hi! Stupid Question from an Austrian:
>
> What has all this to do with overclocking??
>
> Wolfram
>
>

SST
July 5th 03, 04:34 AM
Constitution of Sweden
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Swedish Constitution consists of four basic laws (Swedish: grundlagar):


a.. The Instrument of Government (1974)
b.. The Act of Succession (1809)
c.. The Freedom of the Press Act (1766)
d.. The Fundamental Law on Freedom of Expression (1991)
There is also a law on the working order of the Parliament with a special
status but which does not qualify as a "basic law":


a.. The Riksdag Act (1974)
To amend or to make a revision of a basic law, the Parliament needs to
approve the changes twice in two successive terms, with a general election
having been held in between.



Instrument of Government
The most important of the "basic laws" is The Instrument of Government or
Regeringsformen. It sets out the basic principles for political life in
Sweden defining rights and freedoms.
The Parliamentarian Instrument of Government of 1974 grants the power to
commission a Prime Minister to the Riksdag (Parliament) at the suggestion of
the Speaker of the Riksdag. The Prime Minister appoints members of Cabinet
including heads of ministries, totalling to approximately 20 members. The
Cabinet decides collectively in governmental matters after report of the
Head of Ministry in question. At least five Cabinet members are to be
present at the decission. In practice reports are written, and discussions
very rare, during the formal Cabinet meetings.

Remaining constitutional functions for The Head of State, i.e. the King,
include: heading the Council of State (the King plus the Cabinet), heading
the Council on Foreign Affairs, recognizing new Cabinets (in the Council of
State), and opening the Parliament's yearly session. The King is to be
continuously briefed on governmental issues - in the Council of State or
directly by the Prime Minister.


History
The first constitutional Instrument of Government was enacted in 1719,
marking the transition from Autocracy to Parliamentarism. Sweden's unbloody
revolution of 1772 was legitimized by the Parliament in new versions of the
Instrument of Government (in 1772 and 1789), making the King a
"Constitutional Autocrat". When Sweden was split in 1809, and Finland was
created as a Russian Grand duchy, this "Constitutional Autocracy" was very
well fitted, and remained in force until Finland's independence in 1917.
In Sweden the loss of virtually half the realm led to another unbloody
revolution, a new royal dynasty, and a new Instrument of Government of June
6, 1809, under which the King still played a central role in government,
however no more independent of the Privy Council. The King was free to
choose Councellors, but was bound to decide in governmental matters only in
presence of the Privy Council, or a subset thereof, and after report of the
Councellor responsible for the matter in question. The Councellor had to
countersign a royal decission, unless it was un-constitutional, whereby it
gained legal force. The Councellor was legally responsible for his advice,
and was obliged to note his dissension in case he didn't agree with the
King's decission. De jure this Constitution puts a considerable power on the
King; a power increasingly used to follow the Councellors' advice, and from
1917 to adhere to principles of Parliamentarism by chosing Councellors
possessing direct or indirect support from a majority of the Parliament.

After over 50 years of de facto Parliamentarism it was written into the
Instrument of Government of 1974 which, although technically adherent to
Constitutional monarchy, finally abolished the Privy Council.


Act of Succession
Sweden's switch from elective to hereditary monarchy in 1544 gave reason to
Sweden's first law of constitutional character, in form of a treaty between
the royal dynasty and the realm represented by the four Estates to be valid
for all times.
Accordingly the current Act of Succession (Swedish: Successionsordningen) is
a treaty between the old Riksdag of the Estates and The House of Bernadotte
regulating the right to accede to the Swedish throne. In 1980 the old
principle of "agnatic primogeniture", which meant that the throne was
inherited by the eldest male child of the preceding monarch, was replaced by
the principle of full "cognatic primogeniture." This meant that the throne
will be inherited by the eldest child without regard to sex. Thereby
Princess Victoria of Sweden, the eldest child of King Carl XVI Gustav of
Sweden, was created heir apparent to the Swedish throne over her younger
brother.



Freedom of expression
The other two acts defines the freedom of the press and other forms of
expression. They are separated into two separate laws mainly to maintain the
tradition of the Freedom of the Press Act or Tryckfrihetsförordningen from
1766. The Freedom of the Press Act has actually been changed several times
since its first incarnation. In 1772, 1810, 1812, 1949 and 1982.


Public access to governmental documents
In the 18th century, after over 40 years of mixed experiences with
Parliamentarism, Public access to governmental documents was one of the main
issues with the Freedom of the Press Act of 1766. Although the novelity was
put out of order 1772-1809, it has since remained central in the Swedish
mindset, seen as a forceful means against corruption and governmental
agencies' inequal treatment of the citizens, increasing the perceived
legitimacy of (local and central) government and politicians.


Lutheran State Church
In 1593, after 70 years of Reformation and Counter-Reformation in Sweden,
adherence to the Augsburg confession was decided and given constitutional
status at the Synode of Uppsala (Uppsala möte). References to Uppsala möte
has since then been worked into the "basic laws", notably the Act of
Succession.


"Martin Eriksson" > wrote in message
...
> Well just wait until I post the Swedish "constitution" on our national
day.
> I guess "your" constitution is a plagialized version of ours...
>
> *PLONK*
>
> /M
>
>

Z28
July 5th 03, 04:41 AM
You sure, I thought he invented Oxygen!


"Daemon Rose" > wrote in message
t...
> > And if not for the freedom and ingenuity of the Americans .. there would
> be
> > no precious internet or your frickin' NG's or probably the computer
you're
> > sitting at.
>
> Yeah, just where do these people get off talking about Americans like that
> anyway? Don't they know Al Gore invented the Internet?
>
> --
> Daemon Rose
>
>

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:02 AM
And your supposed to scare me Mr 'I'm so tough, i'm an ex-grunt'? Hah - get
a life you moron - realise that the world does not revolve around your
asshole.

Kai

in article , neopolaris at . wrote on
7/4/03 10:41 pm:

>
> There probably wouldn't even be an internet or computers if it weren't for
> the United States. There probably wouldn't be a helluva lotta things.
>
> If you dislike 'US" tough. We are making the world a better place-one
> sandbox and rice paddy at a time.
>
> PS: Yo fatass KAI. I have a temper too. Goes well with my formal Army
> training. In short, shut your piehole.
>
> neopolaris
> ex-grunt
> E-3-1
>
>

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:05 AM
In case you hadnt twigged by now, i'm not french. I just have the misfortune
to have to live here.

Still - i agree with 99% of your post :D

Kai

in article , Dave at
wrote on 7/4/03 11:22 pm:

>
> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Haha - well thats america for you - plenty of dumbasses :P
>
> Please keep the stereotyping to a minimum...that is unless you would like us
> Americans to typify France as a bunch of unwashed, pungent, elitist
> snail-eating Socialists with poor drinking water, strange sexual
> proclivities, sharper class distinctions, a history of arrogant aristocratic
> inbreeding monarchy, and a far lower standard of living, due in no small
> part of late to Chameleon Bonaparte's little oil deal with Saddam falling
> thru...which clearly does not apply to everyone in France. The number of
> dumbasses per capita is a GLOBAL demographic, spanning all social strata.
> Factor in population growth and we can naturally see stupidity propagating
> at a near-exponential rate...
>
> Honi soit qui merde y pense...
>
>
>> No offence to anyone normal btw, just to drunken morons :D
>
> Hey, I know Norm and Al. And no, they aren't living together. Only in France
> ;-) (and SF, Greenwich Village, Ogunquit, ME, and P-town which is south of
> my position both literally and metaphorically). Normality is the idea of
> consensus perpetuated by weak-minded, mediocre, insecure sheep who need to
> feel like they're part of something larger than the limited scope of their
> self-awareness. When you consider my above assertion, namely that most
> people are indeed stupid (only the top 10% actually have any noteworthy
> intellect, statistically speaking), then I guess it thus follows that
> "normality" is pretty much dumb all over...and a little ugly on the side ;-)
> Never mind SST. He's another "Nvidia Dude". He is an obsessive/compulsive,
> shallow, insecure materialist with a melodramatic flair and a history of
> cyclical abuse. I think his fat wife left him not too long ago as well. He
> was told this would happen if he didn't take his meds and well, he didn't
> take his meds and this happened. He's mostly ok while his dope supply lasts,
> it's just been a little dry lately...
>
>>
>> Kai
>>
>>
>> in article , Doc at
>> wrote on 7/4/03 8:06 pm:
>>
>>> I love July 4th, even though I'm not from the states.
>>>
>>> It's always comical to hear about some dumbass blowing half his body
> parts
>>> off with fireworks while he was in a drunken stupor.
>>>
>>> :
>>> : doc
>>> :
>>> :
>>> :
>>> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Yep. Its Crap. Does it matter where i'm from? If i lived in the US,
> your
>>>> post would STILL have been labeled as crap, because its not some 'isnt
> a
>>>> america great' ng. Stupid? I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as
>>> well.
>>>> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too. Go back into that dark
>>> little
>>>> hole of yours and stop bothering us with your nonsensical babblings...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> in article , SST at
>>>> wrote on 7/4/03 5:40 pm:
>>>>
>>>>> Oh, its crap?
>>>>>
>>>>> I see. Where are you from, Kai?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You stupid little person, you must be from France!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum
> just
>>>>> for
>>>>>> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please
> dont
>>>>> post
>>>>>> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy whatever it is day though...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in article , SST at
>>>>>> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:14 AM
There are a few in here i think.....but you'll have a touch time finding
them anywhere else....


in article , aj at
wrote on 7/5/03 2:07 am:

>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
>
> Where ?????
>
>

Z28
July 5th 03, 05:14 AM
Not in Europe!!!
"aj" > wrote in message
...
> > Granted there are some intelligent Americans
>
> Where ?????
>
>

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:18 AM
Unfortunately, **** all. Some **** decided that this was his own personal
rant forum, and decided to post up a whole load of irrelevant and off topic
******** that everyone is arguing over...

We should be resuming normal service shortly, after we root out the
overbearing pillocks who seem to infest usenet.

in article , Wolfram Nickl at
wrote on 7/5/03 3:24 am:

> Hi! Stupid Question from an Austrian:
>
> What has all this to do with overclocking??
>
> Wolfram
>
>

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:22 AM
Bring it on Dirtbag ;)

Shall we use the Force, or would that be unfair? :D


in article , bp at
wrote on 7/5/03 3:56 am:

> On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 19:42:51 +0200, Kai Robinson
> > wrote:
>
>> I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as well.
>> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper.
>
> Isn't the internet great ! You can be anything you want.
> BTW I'm 7'2" 290 Lbs of pure muscle . You feel'en lucky puck ? Well
> are you? God I hate little people ;)

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:22 AM
Actually - theres one that lives across the road from me. Grumpy Mo-Fo he is
too.....


in article , bp at
wrote on 7/5/03 4:00 am:

> On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 19:57:36 +0200, Kai Robinson
> > wrote:
>
>> Haha - well thats america for you - plenty of dumbasses :P
>>
>> No offence to anyone normal btw, just to drunken morons :D
>>
>> Kai
>
> No drunk morons where you live ?

yugsdrawkcab
July 5th 03, 05:26 AM
X-No-Archive: Yes

Daemon Rose wrote:
>
> Are you insinuating the Canadians were responsible for that, ****wit?
>
> As your comment indicates, Canadians aren't smart enough to pull something
> like that off. Even if they were though, America would have the Canadian
> military (Canada does have a military, right?...LOL) on it's knees in about
> two hours, so keep laughing. Sounds like you've chuckled yourself right
> into a stupor.
>
> Snap out of it.
>

Obviously my comment about the education level in the U.S was right on
target. My point was that the mighty U.S didn't even see it coming. And
the mighty U.S still hasn't resolved the issue.

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:26 AM
Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that why your the
largest nation of fatasses?

And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the world - the US
takes 2nd place.


in article , SST at
wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:

> Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in history, I
> would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking cold beer and
> watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite broadcast in
> the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful life is.
>
> I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the Middle
> East. We should bring them back home.
>
> "aj" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
>>
>> Where ?????
>>
>>
>
>

Z28
July 5th 03, 05:27 AM
I wouldn't ask. There is to many oxy intelligent freaks around here. If you
was really concerned you would start a new thread anyway.

"Wolfram Nickl" > wrote in message
...
> Hi! Stupid Question from an Austrian:
>
> What has all this to do with overclocking??
>
> Wolfram
>
>

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:39 AM
What exactly are you burbling on about NOW? Try not smoking crack - it may
help.


in article , Z28 at
wrote on 7/5/03 6:36 am:

> Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save you! "It
> takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
>
> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that why your the
>> largest nation of fatasses?
>>
>> And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the world - the
> US
>> takes 2nd place.
>>
>>
>> in article , SST at
>> wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
>>
>>> Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in history,
> I
>>> would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking cold beer
> and
>>> watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite broadcast
> in
>>> the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful life is.
>>>
>>> I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the Middle
>>> East. We should bring them back home.
>>>
>>> "aj" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
>>>>
>>>> Where ?????
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

Z28
July 5th 03, 05:44 AM
"yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
a...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Z28 wrote:
>
> > And you think that, Well, we need to keep thine enemy close. Are you
close
> > enough? Friend=Oh Canada, hell would had wrath on thee if it were not
for
> > thy friends from the south.
> >
>
> Another lemming has spoken.
>

Yeap, you spoke!

Daemon Rose
July 5th 03, 05:49 AM
> you lot have a funny way of looking at
> things. Sit on the fence, wait a bit to see who's favourite to win, and
then
> jump in and claim that it was down to you....

What in gods name are you talking about?

The French had already surrendered to the Germans long before the U.S.
arrived and it wasn't until the Americans occupied Munich that Hitler
committed suicide. The Germans then surrendered unconditionally seven days
later, so yes, I'd say it was down to the U.S.

Deal with it.

--
Daemon Rose

Dave
July 5th 03, 05:50 AM
"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> In case you hadnt twigged by now, i'm not french. I just have the
misfortune
> to have to live here.

I know. I remember. You're a pommie in disguise! ;-) Living pretty well on
an amazingly low budget IIRC...

(snip)

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:52 AM
And as usual, i re-iterate that i am not french. I enjoy poking fun at them
too y'know. And had it not been for a bunch of us brits, you would have been
most likely speaking german right now. Americans ASSISTED with WW2 - but
until 1942, they werent overly interested, what with being isolationist and
all...


in article [email protected], Daemon Rose at
wrote on 7/5/03 6:49 am:

>> you lot have a funny way of looking at
>> things. Sit on the fence, wait a bit to see who's favourite to win, and
> then
>> jump in and claim that it was down to you....
>
> What in gods name are you talking about?
>
> The French had already surrendered to the Germans long before the U.S.
> arrived and it wasn't until the Americans occupied Munich that Hitler
> committed suicide. The Germans then surrendered unconditionally seven days
> later, so yes, I'd say it was down to the U.S.
>
> Deal with it.

Kai Robinson
July 5th 03, 05:57 AM
Hehe you uncovered the diguise - ****! And i just had it cleaned too! :D

Yep - £120 a month - of which £60 comes in today

in article , Dave at
wrote on 7/5/03 6:50 am:

>
> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In case you hadnt twigged by now, i'm not french. I just have the
> misfortune
>> to have to live here.
>
> I know. I remember. You're a pommie in disguise! ;-) Living pretty well on
> an amazingly low budget IIRC...
>
> (snip)
>
>

Z28
July 5th 03, 05:58 AM
China is well ahead of America with advanced rice patties and human decency
applications. :( I admire the ignorance you exhume as well assume innocence
of ignorance.

"yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
a...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> SST wrote:
>
> > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in history,
I
> > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking cold beer
and
> > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite broadcast
in
> > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful life is.
>
> ROTFLMAO!!! China is ages ahead of you rednecks.
>
> >
> > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the Middle
> > East. We should bring them back home.
> >
>
> That's right, because they don't belong there in the first place.
>

TNSAF
July 5th 03, 06:02 AM
Daemon Rose wrote:
>> you lot have a funny way of looking at
>> things. Sit on the fence, wait a bit to see who's favourite to win,
>> and then jump in and claim that it was down to you....
>
> What in gods name are you talking about?
>
> The French had already surrendered to the Germans long before the U.S.
> arrived and it wasn't until the Americans occupied Munich that Hitler
> committed suicide. The Germans then surrendered unconditionally
> seven days later, so yes, I'd say it was down to the U.S.

Did you get this tidbit of history from comic book?

Last time I looked there was the blood of many nations involved in bringing
down Hitler and his Nazi Germany!

But this is not the place for such a conversation...

SST
July 5th 03, 06:03 AM
I had the most amazing escargot at a restaurant in the Paris Hotel in Las
Vegas recently.

I had tried it a few times in the past and found it chewy.



"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> No thanks, but your perfectly welcome.
>
>
> in article [email protected], Daemon Rose at
> wrote on 7/4/03 11:49 pm:
>
> >> Oh and i'm far from little as well.
> >> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper. Heavy Too.
> >
> > Good....then go eat another ****ing pound of escargot or something.
>

yugsdrawkcab
July 5th 03, 06:10 AM
X-No-Archive: Yes

Z28 wrote:
> "yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
> a...
>
>>Another lemming has spoken.
>>
>
>
> Yeap, you spoke!
>

I am hardly a U.S lemming.. Try to keep up?

yugsdrawkcab
July 5th 03, 06:12 AM
X-No-Archive: Yes

Z28 wrote:

> I wouldn't ask. There is to many oxy intelligent freaks around here. If you
> was really concerned you would start a new thread anyway.
>

LOL.. The above further proves my point in relation to the weak U.S
education system.

SST
July 5th 03, 06:17 AM
They saw it coming, the WTC was the target of a few terrorist attempts.

This last one was successful, unfortunately. The retaliation for such
actions must be severe or we will find the USA allot like Israel, under a
constant state of violence.

The price the Arabs are paying is severe and its just begun. This should be
a very strong message for the rest of the world. That is it just got a whole
lot smaller and there is no room for us all. Since we are bigger and
stronger, Darwin's laws governing nature can apply. The leaders need to get
things in order to our liking or there will be blood shed on both sides. My
guess is that more on their side then ours.

Iraq having WMD? Who cared? You think the average 30-something year olds
cared? No, they didn't, we wanted him gone because we didn't trust his. I
think Iran should be next along with Syria.


"yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
a...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Daemon Rose wrote:
> >
> > Are you insinuating the Canadians were responsible for that, ****wit?
> >
> > As your comment indicates, Canadians aren't smart enough to pull
something
> > like that off. Even if they were though, America would have the
Canadian
> > military (Canada does have a military, right?...LOL) on it's knees in
about
> > two hours, so keep laughing. Sounds like you've chuckled yourself right
> > into a stupor.
> >
> > Snap out of it.
> >
>
> Obviously my comment about the education level in the U.S was right on
> target. My point was that the mighty U.S didn't even see it coming. And
> the mighty U.S still hasn't resolved the issue.
>

OldfartJC
July 5th 03, 06:18 AM
Your probably somewhere around Calgary, Alberta on Shaw Cable.
"Thor" > wrote in message
a...
> I'm not quite sure where you think I am from..
>
> but..
>
> I'll give you a hint.
>
> I live in a country that doesn't start wars, altho the last war we fought
> on our turf we won. and kicked the ass of the country we were fighting..
In
> fact we burnt down their capitol city and government buildings.. I think
it
> was called the white house!
>
>
>

Z28
July 5th 03, 06:19 AM
"yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
a...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Z28 wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't ask. There is to many oxy intelligent freaks around here. If
you
> > was really concerned you would start a new thread anyway.
> >
>
> LOL.. The above further proves my point in relation to the weak U.S
> education system.
>

Really, explain that to me yug????? Since we Americans are uneducated. Since
fools are the in thing!

OldfartJC
July 5th 03, 06:20 AM
Myself for one.
"aj" > wrote in message
...
> > Granted there are some intelligent Americans
>
> Where ?????
>
>

Banjo Dolt
July 5th 03, 06:24 AM
In article >,
says...
> ROTFLMAO!!! China is ages ahead of you rednecks.
>
Right...that's why they need to buy third rate military hardware from
Russia.

SST
July 5th 03, 06:29 AM
China? LOL, you need to get out more.

So you're in a pub and this really BIG guy kind of pushes his way past you
to the bar and overshadows your attempt to get the attention of the
bartender. In a fit of anger fueled by your own insecurities and the unjust
nature of life, you hit him in the jaw. Its a good blow and you managed to
knock out one of his teeth, spilling blood and tooth across the bar. You
smile to yourself then bam, this BIG guy kicks the living shot out of you.
First in the bar, then out back in the ally and again later-on on your front
porch. Days later, after he visits the dentist, he shows up with his buddies
and they start handing out smack-bottoms on a weekly basis.

and that was the price for attacking the USA. Sorry, I didn't make up the
rules but I sure live by them!


"yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
a...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> SST wrote:
>
> > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in history,
I
> > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking cold beer
and
> > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite broadcast
in
> > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful life is.
>
> ROTFLMAO!!! China is ages ahead of you rednecks.
>
> >
> > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the Middle
> > East. We should bring them back home.
> >
>
> That's right, because they don't belong there in the first place.
>

Daemon Rose
July 5th 03, 06:33 AM
> Obviously my comment about the education level in the U.S was right on
> target.

You should probably ease off on the subject of education considering your
posts amount to the equivalent of a bunch of monkeys banging on pots and
pans.

> My point was that the mighty U.S didn't even see it coming.

The mighty U.S. didn't see it coming because it was a cheap shot planned by
a bunch of pussies like yourself whose only possible means of hurting
America was to attack unsuspecting innocent civilians.

> And
> the mighty U.S still hasn't resolved the issue.

Have you seen Bin Ladin lately? No? I didn't think so. By the way, how do
you like Afghanistans new government?

Issue resolved!

--
Daemon Rose

Daemon Rose
July 5th 03, 06:39 AM
> Why would anyone celebrate the birth of the biggest pack of arseholes on
the
> planet.

Because they happen to live in the best country to ever grace the planet.

Bitter? <VBG>

--
Daemon Rose

Dave
July 5th 03, 06:54 AM
SNIP.

Anybody®
July 5th 03, 07:22 AM
lol!
"HamMan" > wrote in message
...
> WARNING: May contain patriotic garbage
>
>

Anybody®
July 5th 03, 07:27 AM
Yup, and the rest of the world would probably turn on the US in that
instant.
"Daemon Rose" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> > All of our buildings are still standing... Yours?
>
> Are you insinuating the Canadians were responsible for that, ****wit?
>
> As your comment indicates, Canadians aren't smart enough to pull something
> like that off. Even if they were though, America would have the Canadian
> military (Canada does have a military, right?...LOL) on it's knees in
about
> two hours, so keep laughing. Sounds like you've chuckled yourself right
> into a stupor.
>
> Snap out of it.
>
> --
> Daemon Rose
>
>

Lowen B. Holde
July 5th 03, 07:42 AM
"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> And as usual, i re-iterate that i am not french. I enjoy poking fun at
them
> too y'know. And had it not been for a bunch of us brits, you would have
been
> most likely speaking german right now.

Had it not been for the Brits AND the Russians. Get your facts straight.
And Americans speaking German? I think not. How would Germany mounted a
successful invasion of America from across the Atlantic? True, the Brits
stopped the Germans from invading their island, but they lacked the manpower
and industrial might needed to pull off a successful invasion and liberation
of France, let alone trying to conquer Germany. Do a Google search on
"Dunkirk." And come to think of it, as an isolated island, where did
Britian get their extra food, raw materials, and ammunition from... I wonder
who... um, lets see... And to whom did they turn to for ships when the
German U-boats isolated them in the first place... hmm let's see, not
France... Not the USSR... hmm...

> Americans ASSISTED with WW2 - but

Incorrect. The majority of forces from D-day on were American. The
majority of battles won and territory taken on the Western front were by
American troops. And don't forget that America was fighting on two fronts.
That's not a slight against the Brits, they put up a great fight. The
courage and willpower displayed by the English people during the Battle of
Britian will always remain one of the great moments in modern human history.
But to say America assisted is like calling the Atlantic a "little pond."

> until 1942, they werent overly interested, what with being isolationist
and
> all...
>

Incorrect again. Do a Google search on "lend lease." You flunk history
class. You've been living in France too long. Get out while you still can!
lol

Lowen B. Holde
July 5th 03, 07:49 AM
"yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
a...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Daemon Rose wrote:
>
> >>I can't speak for all Canadians, but I can say that personally I don't
> >>hate Americans.. I laugh at them.
> >
> >
> > Good, because that's all you Canadians can do. I hope it's enough for
you.
> >
> All of our buildings are still standing... Yours?
>

Canada has buildings?

Z28
July 5th 03, 08:08 AM
I will keep up as soon as you become a citizen!

"yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
a...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Z28 wrote:
> > "yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
> > a...
> >
> >>Another lemming has spoken.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Yeap, you spoke!
> >
>
> I am hardly a U.S lemming.. Try to keep up?
>
>

bongdaddyboo
July 5th 03, 09:28 AM
SST wrote:

> "Daemon Rose" > wrote in message
>> Yeah, just where do these people get off talking about Americans
>> like that anyway? Don't they know Al Gore invented the Internet?
>
> Damn right he did!

It's powered by *potatoe* juice as well isn't it?
--
take a hit dude,
Bongdaddyboo

Anybody®
July 5th 03, 10:01 AM
Except for when the news broke that someone gave birth to Daemon Rose
"Anybody®" > wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
> That has got to be on of the saddest things I have ever heard, here, have
my
> pity........
> "neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
...
>
> > If you dislike 'US" tough. We are making the world a better place-one
> > sandbox and rice paddy at a time.
> >
> > PS: Yo fatass KAI. I have a temper too. Goes well with my formal Army
> > training. In short, shut your piehole.
> >
> > neopolaris
> > ex-grunt
> > E-3-1
> >
> >
>
>

Anybody®
July 5th 03, 10:09 AM
Just out of curiosity, are you not in Calgary on the Shaw network?
"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message ...
>
> There probably wouldn't even be an internet or computers if it weren't for
> the United States. There probably wouldn't be a helluva lotta things.
>
> If you dislike 'US" tough. We are making the world a better place-one
> sandbox and rice paddy at a time.
>
> PS: Yo fatass KAI. I have a temper too. Goes well with my formal Army
> training. In short, shut your piehole.
>
> neopolaris
> ex-grunt
> E-3-1
>
>

Anybody®
July 5th 03, 10:10 AM
Sure as hell doesn't take long for a well meaning post to get wrecked by
idiots like Daemon Rose & neopolaris, not to mention SST, the originator,
even if it is wayyyyy off-topic.........

"Anybody®" > wrote in message
le.rogers.com...
> pooleese, and what a totally overworked off topic thread!!! Look at the
> ****ing size of it!!!! even with "over patriotic, You Are Not American"
SST
> going I am surprised! What becomes of zealots?
>
>
>
>
> > Because they happen to live in the best country to ever grace the
planet.
> >
> > Bitter? <VBG>
> >
> > --
> > Daemon Rose
> >
> >
>
>

Thomas Andersson
July 5th 03, 11:41 AM
Thor wrote:

> you should write to your congressman and request they propose a bill
> to return the Statue of Liberty, that great American symbol....

Return everything not originally American and you're left with a few Native
Americans (The ones left that the 'other' Americans haven't finished off
yet).

> I think it would look good back in France.

;)

> or don't you know your history?

His-to-ry?? explain? (remember that this is a nation who is younger than
most houses in Europe and whos cultures age can be measured in small
fractions of other cultures around the world).

;)

Thomas Andersson
July 5th 03, 11:52 AM
SST wrote:

> I love to see all the non-Americans come out in protest of a little
> patriotism. its funny as hell and sad at the same time.

I think you'll find that most people complains about it beeing a waste of
bandwidth and totaly off-topic. This is (supposed to be) a non-political
newsgroup discussing computer hardware, not a forum for discussing what
country is better than what other or whose ideals are the purest or
whatever...
Crossposting and off-topic postings are bad nettiquette and will always draw
complaints, the hostile retorts against anyone daring to speak up doesn't
improve the situation...

Thomas Andersson
July 5th 03, 12:04 PM
neopolaris wrote:

> Bite me. I'm just having some fun. If they hate "US" there is
> nothing anyone can do. It's all predisposed. It's liberal crybabies
> like you that give this great nation a black eye all the damned time
> anyways.

Must we all fully embrace the 'american way' and love this 'great nation'?
How come that if you don't fully agree you're badged as a america hater?
Lack of love is not the same as hate, neither is lack of interest in the
matter.
And what's with the "Shut up becouse I'm stronger and got military training"
agianst those who dissagree? Not very mature is it?

Thomas Andersson
July 5th 03, 12:07 PM
SST wrote:

> Yeah but beware of the Canadian Navy!

And the Noble Mounties.. oh yeah, and the Mighty Moose!

Not to forget the singing Lumberjacks ;) ;)

Hehe, honnestly though, I love Canadians, very kind and nice people.

:)

Thomas Andersson
July 5th 03, 12:16 PM
Wolfram Nickl wrote:

> Hi! Stupid Question from an Austrian:
>
> What has all this to do with overclocking??

Overclocked egos without proper cooling? ;)

db
July 5th 03, 01:19 PM
SST wrote:
> Oh, its crap?
>
> I see. Where are you from, Kai?
>
>
> You stupid little person, you must be from France!
>
>
> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum
>> just for yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No.
>> Please dont post this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
>>
>> Happy whatever it is day though...
>>
>>
>> in article , SST at
>> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
>>
>>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah


SST i like america but you are a total knobhead.

db

db
July 5th 03, 01:21 PM
Dave wrote:

> Please keep the stereotyping to a minimum...that is unless you would
> like us Americans to typify France as a bunch of unwashed, pungent,
> elitist snail-eating Socialists with poor drinking water, strange
> sexual proclivities, sharper class distinctions, a history of
> arrogant aristocratic inbreeding monarchy, and a far lower standard
> of living, due in no small part of late to Chameleon Bonaparte's
> little oil deal with Saddam falling thru..

thats all true :)

..which clearly does not
> apply to everyone in France.
>

are you sure? :)

Daemon Rose
July 5th 03, 02:09 PM
> Except for when the news broke that someone gave birth to Daemon Rose

That's a pretty good joke, kid. What are you trying to do, top your
parents?

--
Daemon Rose

Daemon Rose
July 5th 03, 02:12 PM
> pooleese, and what a totally overworked off topic thread!!! Look at the
> ****ing size of it!!!! even with "over patriotic, You Are Not American"
SST
> going I am surprised! What becomes of zealots?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Thank you for playing!!

<VBG>

--
Daemon Rose

SST
July 5th 03, 02:13 PM
no.



"Thomas Andersson" > wrote in message
...
> SST wrote:
>
> > I do this every year and it always draws the maggots to the surface.
>
> Not beeing American or fully supporting whatever it does makes you a
maggot?
>
>
>
>

Daemon Rose
July 5th 03, 02:14 PM
> Sure as hell doesn't take long for a well meaning post to get wrecked by
> idiots like Daemon Rose & neopolaris, not to mention SST, the originator,
> even if it is wayyyyy off-topic.........

ROTFLMAO!!!

You're not going to try and charge me rent for all that space I'm occupying
in your head, are you?

Compliment taken.

--
Daemon Rose

bp
July 5th 03, 02:26 PM
On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 00:22:17 -0500, Banjo Dolt
> wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> but
>> until 1942, they werent overly interested, what with being isolationist and
>> all...
>>
>>
>
>
>Oh...so we are damned for having been isolationists and damned for being
>a world police force? There is just no pleasing some folks.
>
>America...the country the world loves to hate; that is until they need
>their collective asses bailed out of a jam.

They want us to go to some 2 bit african country now to oust some 2
bit dictator. Wonder how many will hate us for doing that as opposed
to how many will hate if we don't ?

bp
July 5th 03, 02:35 PM
On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 04:30:21 GMT, yugsdrawkcab > wrote:

>ROTFLMAO!!! China is ages ahead of you rednecks.
PHHFFFFFFFFFFFTTT milks flies out of nose.
That's a good one

aj
July 5th 03, 03:24 PM
"SST" > escreveu na mensagem
t...
> yup and in Great Britain, France, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Israel
but
> not in Iraq, fortunately.

....

aj
July 5th 03, 03:26 PM
> Psssst......your posts are about as deep as your reflection in the mirror,
> so do yourself a favor and quit while you're behind.


Deeper...

jhgd
July 5th 03, 03:30 PM
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 15:34:03 -0700, "OldfartJC" > wrote:

-I didn't realize you Canadians in Alberta hated us that much. My friends
in
-Edmonton always like to come to the U.S. to buy stuff at much cheaper
prices
-than they can in Canada. Non sens cause the exportation cost a few box
plus some other law from your side that taxe us to get some american
product. Have you ever think about playing strayght whit your partner?
i guest your just scared to get low cote on e-bay.


Must be all your liberal laws that causes (with all the injustice taht
fly-bly from the south, ( just like resolution from kyoto. To reduce the
pollution.)-> where do you think thai **** goes to the north. You should
show some respet to others.
-everything to be so expensive or maybe it's your great healthcare system
(prebent people to die from hearth desseases and some other sickness not
like your's how let you die whitout any compassion) I can say this- one
time i knew a guy from the us and i did lived in canada for 5 year, one
time we were discusing about that ( the health care system and he sayd
that was a very good thing to get )

in your country it must be. 50 box to pay a visite to the doctor or
higher.


-which probably taxes you to death, which means you wouldn't need
healthcare
-for very long.
-
-"Dan" > wrote in message
a...
-> Bingo it is assholes like you that cause all these other nations to hate
-> America.
->
-> "neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
...
-> >
-> > There probably wouldn't even be an internet or computers if it weren't
-for
-> > the United States. There probably wouldn't be a helluva lotta things.
-> >
-> > If you dislike 'US" tough. We are making the world a better
place-one
-> > sandbox and rice paddy at a time.
-> >
-> > PS: Yo fatass KAI. I have a temper too. Goes well with my formal
Army
-> > training. In short, shut your piehole.
-> >
-> > neopolaris
-> > ex-grunt
-> > E-3-1
-> >
-> >
->
->
-

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 03:52 PM
"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just
for
> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont
post
> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
>
> Happy whatever it is day though...

There are *hundreds* of countries in the world, and this is not the place to
get a posting every time one of them has one of their national days. If
anything, Usenet is remarkable in that there ARE no borders, and we all post
as citizens of the world. There's no border control who asks us whether we
know anyone who's been a member of a communist party before allowing us to
visit our family. There's no policemen who will beat us to an inch of our
lives because we happen to be black, gay, or of a different faith at the
wrong place at the wrong time. There's no politicians who will have us
detained indefinitely as a threat to national homeland security for
protesting and demonstrating here.

Do not sully Usenet with patriotic rallies. This is not, and will never be,
the proper outlet for nationalistic or xenophobic drivel. If you really
want to discuss (yes, Usenet is for *DISCUSSION*) the US declaration of
independence, I suggest you head over to soc.culture.usa
In these other groups, you may end up to a crowd that doesn't give a damn
about your country as long as the US dollar stays low.

--
*Art

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 03:56 PM
"Dave" > wrote in message
t...
>
> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Haha - well thats america for you - plenty of dumbasses :P
>
> Please keep the stereotyping to a minimum...that is unless you would like
us
> Americans to typify France as a bunch of unwashed, pungent, elitist
> snail-eating Socialists with poor drinking water, strange sexual
[chop]

I'm not French, but now you make me wonder -- where on Earth do you live
where being *elitist* is a bad thing? Does your culture praise mediocrity
as the ideal?

--
*Art

Proconsul
July 5th 03, 04:14 PM
Indeed - especially in light of the fact that 90% of the country has no
electricity, no indoor plumbing, no phones, etc., etc., etc.....:)

A view of the world taken from space at night shows that there are no lights
in China much beyond the "strip" about a hundred miles wide along it's
coastline. China, on balance, may be the least technologically advanced
country on the planet - certainly not the "most".....:)

Speaking as someone who has been to China, I can report that it's a great
place to study "Stone Age" living in detail......they have a marvelous
culture, etc., but technology isn't something they specialize in.....

PC

"Z28" > wrote in message
...
| China is well ahead of America with advanced rice patties and human
decency
| applications. :( I admire the ignorance you exhume as well assume
innocence
| of ignorance.
|
| "yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
| a...
| > X-No-Archive: Yes
| >
| > SST wrote:
| >
| > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in
history,
| I
| > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking cold
beer
| and
| > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite broadcast
| in
| > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful life
is.
| >
| > ROTFLMAO!!! China is ages ahead of you rednecks.
| >
| > >
| > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the
Middle
| > > East. We should bring them back home.
| > >
| >
| > That's right, because they don't belong there in the first place.
| >
|
|
|

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 04:15 PM
"SST" > wrote in message
t...
> BTW: I want to know where your from because I'd like to decide if you
> represent your nation or if you're just commie, pink'o moron. I can then
> make an honest decision to not travel your nation and urge my congressman
> and senators to avoid supporting such nations.
>
> I avoid anything French made or owned and unfortunately I drive a German
car
> but next time it will most likely be some American owned or dominated
> manufacturer.
>
> I do this every year and it always draws the maggots to the surface.

Please contemplate this: The US and French revolutions go hand in hand, and
are in part based on each other. Many of the assemblymen and founding
fathers were great fans of the French revolutionaries, and the first
amendment was to a great extent based on the Declaration des Droits de
l'Homme et du Citoyen (declaration of the rights of man and of the citizen).
That's right, you're waving your flag (Notice the colors? Where do you
think they came from?) under the protection of a French declaration!

Things are never as black/white as radicals on either side see them. You
can be a socialist without being a communist, you can be anti-war without
being pro-terrorists, and you can be US American without hating/fearing
other countries and peoples.

And don't forget, this is Usenet where there *are* no borders, no body
odour, no obesity, no skin colour, and no congressmen. Let's keep it that
way.

--
*Art

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 05:14 PM
"Steve Trussing" > wrote in message
...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> TheSingingCat > wrote:
>

> > I'd have great
> > difficulty in believing that without US contributions to the
> > computing world we would not have computers.
>
> Don't kid yourself:
>
> ** World's first operational, general-purpose, electronic computer:
> ENIAC (Electrical Numerical Integrator And Calculator, U.S. Patent
> #3,120,606), University of Pennsylvania, USA, 1946

Of course, there wouldn't have been an ENIAC without the COLOSSUS mark I and
II, and Harvard Mark I that the British had built earlier. The ENIAC wasn't
the first US computer either -- the Bells Labs Model IV preceded it.

The first computer, though, was the German Zuse from 1939 (using mechanical
relays).

As usual, this is a case of the US taking credit for inventions where no
credit is due, just like the Automobile, airplane, electric lights, space
exploration and much else where they were good number 2's, but stole the
credits.

> ** First-ever high-level computer programming language: FORTRAN, USA,
> 1954 (released in 1957)

Of course, this is true if you conveniently forget about Plankalkul from
1945.

> ** First-ever computer game: Spacewar, MIT, USA, 1962

How horribly wrong. NIM was played on Univac in 1953.

I'm *SICK AND TIRED* about ****ing American chauvinism and nationalism. The
US is NOT the best goddamn country in the world. It is *one* country in the
world, for better and for worse. Sure, it's great. NO, it's NOT greater.
It's a country. It happens to be my country, but so frigging what? It's
just a country full of people -- some who's bright and shining, and some
who's pathetic morons.

Regards,
--
*Art

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 05:28 PM
"Tom Lake" > wrote in message
...
> > Nothing to do with patriotism. This NG is international, so what if
> > everybody here starts posting useless historical info about their own
> > country?? Wanna read about the Czech constitution????
>
> Yes, I would! I'd like to learn about any country on its special day.

Venezuela declared independence on July 5. Here's their constitution:


TITLE I
THE REPUBLIC, ITS TERRITORY AND POLITICAL DIVISIONS

Chapter I Fundamental Provisions
Chapter II The Territory and Political Divisions
Chapter III The States
Chapter IV Municipalities
TITLE II
NATIONALITY
TITLE III
DUTIES, RIGHTS AND GUARANTIES

Chapter I General Provisions
Chapter II Duties
Chapter III Individual Rights
Chapter IV Social Rights
Chapter V Economic Rights
Chapter VI Political Rights
TITLE IV
THE PUBLIC POWER

Chapter I General Provisions
Chapter II Provisions of the National Power
TITLE V
THE NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE POWER

Chapter I General Provisions
Chapter II The Senate
Chapter III The Chamber of Deputies
Chapter IV Common Provisions
Chapter V Enactment of Laws
Chapter VI The Delegate Committee of Congress
TITLE VI
THE NATIONAL, EXECUTIVE POWER

Chapter I The President of the Republic
Chapter II Powers of the President of the Republic
Chapter III The Ministers
Chapter IV The Office of Attorney General of the Republic

TITLE VII
THE JUDICIAL POWER AND PUBLIC MINISTRY

Chapter I General Provisions
Chapter II The Supreme Court of Justice
Chapter III The Council on the Judiciary
Chapter IV The Public Ministry
TITLE VIII
THE PUBLIC FINANCES

Chapter I General Provisions
Chapter II The Office of Comptroller General of the Republic
TITLE
IX EMERGENCY
TITLE X
AMENDMENTS AND REFORM OF THE CONSTITUTION
TITLE XI
INVIOLABILITY OF THE CONSTITUTION
TITLE XII
FINAL PROVISIONS
TRANSITORY PROVISIONS


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

THE CONGRESS OF THE REPUBLIC OF VENEZUELA having called for the vote of the
Legislative Assemblies of the States of Anzoategui, Apure, Aragua, Barinas,
Bolivar, Carabobo, Cojedes, Falcon, Guarico, Lara, Merida, Miranda, Monagas,
Nueva Esparta, Portuguesa, Sucre, Tachira, Trujillo, Yaracuy, and Zulia, and
having seen the favorable result of the voting, in representation of the
Venezuelan people, for whom it invokes protection of God Almighty; with the
aim of maintaining the independence and territorial integrity of the Nation,
strengthening its unity, ensuring the freedom, peace, and stability of its
institutions;

protecting and uplifting labor, upholding human dignity, promoting the
general wellbeing and social security, achieving an equitable participation
by all in the enjoyment of wealth, according to the principles of social
justice; and promoting the development of the economy in the service of man;

maintaining social and legal equality, without discrimination on account of
race, sex, creed, or social conditions;

cooperating with all other nations, and especially with the sister republics
of the Hemisphere, in the aims of the international community, on the basis
of mutual respect for sovereignty, the self determination of peoples, the
universal guarantee of the individual and social rights of the human person,
and the repudiation of war, of conquest, and of economic predominance as an
instrument of international policy;

supporting the democratic order as the soul and irrenouncable means of
ensuring the rights and dignity of citizens and favoring the peaceful
extension to all the peoples of the earth;

and preserving and increasing the moral and historical patrimony of the
Nation forged by the people in their struggles for freedom and justice and
by the thoughts and deeds of the great servant of their country, whose
highest expression is Simon Bolivar, the Liberator, decrees the following

CONSTITUTION


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

TITLE I
THE REPUBLIC, ITS TERRITORY AND POLITICAL DIVISIONS

CHAPTER I

Fundamental Provisions

Article 1. The Republic of Venezuela is forever and irrevocably free and
independent from any domination or protection by a foreign power.

Article 2. The Republic of Venezuela is a federal state, within the terms
affirmed by this Constitution.

Article 3. The government of the Republic of Venezuela is and always shall
be democratic, representative, responsible, and alternating.

Article 4. Sovereignty resides in the people, who exercise it, by means of
suffrage, through the organs of the Public Power.

Article 5. The National flag, with the colors yellow, blue, and red; the
national hymn "Glory to a Brave People;" and the coat of arms of the
Republic, are the symbols of the country.
The law shall determine their characteristics and regulate their use.

Article 6. The official language is Spanish.

CHAPTER II

The Territory and Political Divisions

Article 7. The national territory is that which belonged to the Captaincy
General of Venezuela before the political transformation initiated in 1810,
with the modifications resulting from treaties validly concluded by the
Republic.
Sovereignty, authority, and vigilance over the territorial sea, the
contiguous maritime zone, the continental shelf, and the air space, and also
the ownership and exploitation of property and resources contained within
them, shall be exercised to the extent and under the conditions determined
by law.

Article 8. The national territory may never be ceded, transferred, leased,
or in any way alienated, even partially or temporarily, to a foreign power.
Within such area as is determined, foreign States may only acquire, under
guarantees of reciprocity and with the limitations established by law, the
real property necessary for the seat of their diplomatic or consular
representation. The acquisition of real property by international
organizations may be authorized only under the conditions and restrictions
established by law. In all these cases sovereignty over the land shall
always be retained.

Article 9. The national territory is divided, for the purposes of the
political organization of the Republic, into the States, the Federal
District, the Federal Territories, and the Federal Dependencies.

Article 10. States may merge, alter their present boundaries, and decide
upon exchanges or cessions of territory through agreements approved by their
Legislative Assemblies and ratified by the Senate. Alterations of boundaries
and exchanges or cessions of territory between the Federal District or the
Federal Territories or Dependencies and the States may be accomplished
through agreements between the National Executive and the pertinent States,
ratified by the corresponding legislative Assemblies and by the Senate.

Article 11. The city of Caracas is the capital of the Republic and the
permanent seat of the supreme organs of the National Power.
The provisions of this article do not prevent the temporary exercise of the
National Power in other places in the Republic.
A special law may coordinate the different jurisdictions existing within the
metropolitan area of Caracas, without impairing municipal autonomy.

Article 12. The Federal District and the Federal Territories shall be
organized by organic laws, in which municipal autonomy shall be maintained.

Article 13. By a special law a Federal Territory may be given the status of
a State and allotted all or part of the area of the Territory concerned.

Article 14. The Federal Dependencies are those portions of the territory of
the Republic not included in the States, Territories, and Federal District,
and also such islands as may be formed or appear in the territorial sea or
in the sea covering the continental shelf. Their system of government and
administration shall be established by law.

Article 15. The law may establish a special juridical system for those
territories which, by the free determination of their inhabitants and with
the approval of Congress, are incorporated into the Republic.

CHAPTER III

The States

Article 16. The States are autonomous and equal as political entities. They
are obligated to maintain the independence and integrity of the Nation; and
to comply with and enforce the Constitution and the laws of the Republic.
They shall give faith and credit to public acts issued by national
authorities, other States, and municipalities and shall see that they are
executed.
Each State may preserve its present name or change it.

Article 17. The following are within the competence of each State:


1. The organization of its public powers, in conformity with this
Constitution;

2. The organization of its Municipalities and other local entities and
their political and territorial division, in accordance with this
Constitution and the national laws;
3. The administration of its property and the expenditure of the
constitutional allotment and other revenues pertaining to it, subject to the
provisions of articles 229 and 235 of this Constitution;
4. The use of the public credit, subject to the limitations and
requirements established by national laws;
5. The organization of the urban and rural police and the determination of
the branches of this service to be placed under municipal jurisdiction;
6. Any matters entrusted to it in accordance with article 137;
7. Whatever is not, in conformity with this Constitution, within national
or municipal competence.
Article 18. The States may not:

1. Create customhouses or import, export, or transit taxes on foreign or
domestic goods, or other sources of revenue under national or municipal
jurisdiction;
2. Tax consumer goods before they enter into circulation within their
territory;
3. Prohibit the consumption of goods produced outside their territory, or
tax them differently from those produced within it;
4. Levy taxes on livestock or on their products or by-products.
Article 19. The Legislative Power in each State is exercised by a
Legislative Assembly whose members must meet the same qualifications as
those required by this Constitution to be a Deputy and shall be elected by
direct vote with proportional representation of minorities, according to
law.
The Legislative Assembly is competent to examine and monitor any act of the
State public administration.
Members of the Legislative Assemblies shall enjoy immunity within the
territory of their State from ten days before the beginning of sessions
until ten days after the latter close or the member leaves office. This
immunity shall be governed by the rules of this Constitution relative to the
immunity of Senators and Deputies, to the extent that they are applicable.

Article 20. The powers of the Legislative Assembly are:

1. To legislate on matters within state competence;
2. To approve or disapprove annually the actions of the Governor, in a
special session called for that purpose;
3. To sanction the Budget Law of the State; The total expenditures
authorized by the Budget Law may in no case exceed the estimate of revenues
for the pertinent period made by the Governor in the bill presented to the
Legislative Assembly;
4. Any others attributed to it by law.
Article 21. The government and administration of each State are the
responsibility of a Governor, who in addition to being executive head of the
State is the agent of the National Executive in his district .
To be a Governor one must be a Venezuelan by birth, over thirty years of
age, and a layman.

Article 22. The law may establish the manner of electing and removing
Governors, in accordance with the principles set forth in article 3 of this
Constitution. The pertinent bill must first be approved by the Chambers in
joint session, by a vote of two thirds of their members. The law shall not
be subject to veto by the President of the Republic. Until the Law provided
for in this article is enacted, Governors shall be freely appointed and
removed by the President of the Republic.

Article 23. The powers and duties of a Governor are;

1. To comply with and enforce this Constitution and the laws, and to
execute and see to the execution of orders and resolutions received from the
National Executive;
2. To appoint and remove those officials and employees under him whose
designation is not conferred upon some other authority, without prejudice to
the laws governing the administrative career;
3. To present to the Legislative Assembly a report of his administration
for the year immediately preceding;
4. To present to the Legislative Assembly the bill for the Budget Law.
Article 24. Disapproval of the acts of a Governor shall cause his immediate
removal in the event that this is expressly agreed upon by a vote of two
thirds of the members of the Legislative Assembly .

CHAPTER IV

Municipalities

Article 25. The Municipalities constitute the primary and autonomous
political unit within the national organization. They are juridical persons
and their representation shall be exercised by such organs as are determined
by law.

Article 26. The organization of Municipalities and other local entities
shall be governed by this Constitution, by the rules established in national
organic laws for the fulfillment of the constitutional principles, and by
legal provisions enacted by the States in conformity therewith.

Article 27. The law may establish different systems for the organization,
government, and administration of Municipalities, based on population,
economic development, geographical location, and other important factors. In
all cases the municipal organization shall be democratic and respond to the
particular nature of the local government.

Article 28. Municipalities may be grouped into Districts. Municipalities may
also join together for specified purposes within their competence.

Article 29. The autonomy of a Municipality covers:

1. The election of its authorities;
2. Freedom of action on matters within its competence;
3. The creation, collection, and expenditure of its revenues; Acts of
Municipalities may not be challenged except before jurisdictional
authorities, in accordance with this Constitution and the laws.
Article 30. Within municipal competence are the government and
administration of the interests peculiar to the entity, particularly in
relation to its property and revenues and to the matters of concern to local
life, such as urban development, supplies, traffic, culture, health, social
welfare popular credit institutions, tourism, and municipal police.
The law may grant municipalities exclusive competence in particular matters
and may also impose on them a compulsory minimum of services.

Article 31. Municipalities shall have the following revenues:

1. The proceeds from their common lands and their own property;
2. Excises for the use of their property and services;
3. Licenses on industry, business, and vehicles and taxes on urban real
property and public entertainment;
4. Fines imposed by municipal authorities and others attributed to them by
law;
5. State or national subsidies and donations; and
6. Any other special taxes, excises and contributions that they impose
according to law.
Article 32. The common lands are inalienable and imprescriptible. They may
be alienated only for construction in the cases established by municipal
ordinance and after compliance with the formalities indicated therein. Those
specified by law may also be alienated for purposes of agrarian reform, but
those required for the development of urban centers shall in all cases be
presented.

Article 33. Municipalities may make use of Public credit subject to such
limitations and requirements as are established by law.

Article 34. Municipalities shall be subject to the limitations established
in article 18 of this Constitution and may not levy on the products of
agriculture, stock-raising, or food fishery any taxes other than those on
retail trade.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

TITLE II
Nationality

Article 35. The following are Venezuelan by birth:

1. Those born in the territory of the Republic;
2. Those born in foreign territory of native-born Venezuelan father and
mother;
3. Those born in foreign territory of a native-born Venezuelan father or a
native-born Venezuelan mother, provided that they establish their residence
in the territory of the Republic or state they desire to take Venezuelan
nationality; and
4. Those born in foreign territory of a naturalized Venezuelan father or
naturalized Venezuelan mother, provided that before reaching eighteen years
of age they establish their residence in the territory of the Republic and
before reaching twenty-five years of age they state their desire to take
Venezuelan nationality.
Article 36. Foreigners who obtain a certificate of naturalization are
Venezuelans by naturalization.
Foreigners who by birth have the nationality of Spain or of a Latin American
State shall enjoy special facilities in obtaining a certificate of
naturalization.

Article 37. The following are Venezuelan by naturalization whenever they
state their desire to be so;

1. A foreign woman married to a Venezuelan;
2. Foreign miners as of the date of naturalization of the person who has
parental authority over them, if they reside in the territory of the
Republic and make the statement before they reach twenty-five years of age;
and
3. Foreign miners adopted by Venezuelans, if they reside in the territory
of the Republic and make the statement before they reach twenty-five years
of age.
Article 38. A Venezuelan woman who marries a foreigner retains her
nationality unless she states her desire to the contrary and, according to
the national law of her husband, acquires his nationality .

Article 39. Venezuelan nationality is lost:

1. By option or voluntary acquisition of another nationality;
2. By revocation of naturalization through a court judgment according to
law.
Article 40. Venezuelan nationality by birth is recovered when the person who
has lost it becomes domiciled in the territory of the Republic and states
his desire to recover it, or when he remains in the country for a period of
not less than two years.

Article 41. The statement of desire contemplated in articles 35, 37, and 40
shall be made in certified form by the interested party if over eighteen
years of age, or by his legal representative if he has not reached that age.

Article 42. The law shall enact, in accordance with the spirit of the
foregoing provisions, the substantive and procedural rules relating to the
acquisition, option, loss, and recovery of Venezuelan nationality, shall
resolve conflicts of nationality, shall establish the requirements,
favorable circumstances, and formalities, and shall regulate the loss and
annulment of naturalization by expression of desire and by the obtaining of
a naturalization certificate.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

TITLE III
DUTIES, RIGHTS AND GUARANTEES

CHAPTER I

General Provisions

Article 43. All persons have the right to the free development of their
personality, with no other limitations than those deriving from the rights
of others and from the public and social order.

Article 44. No legislative provision shall have retroactive effect except
when it imposes a lesser penalty. Procedural laws shall apply from the time
they enter into force, even in cases that are pending; but in criminal
trials evidence already introduced, insofar as it is beneficial to the
defendant, shall be weighed in accordance with the law in force at the time
it was given.

Article 45. Foreigners have the same duties and rights as Venezuelans, with
the limitations and exceptions established by this Constitution and the
laws.
Political rights are reserved to Venezuelans, except as provided in article
3.
Venezuelans by naturalization who have entered the country before they
reached seven years of age and have resided there permanently until they
attained their majority shall enjoy the same rights as Venezuelans by birth.

Article 46. Any act of the Public Power that violates or impairs the rights
guaranteed by this Constitution is void, and the public officials and
employees who execute it shall be held criminally, civilly, or
administratively liable, as the case may be, and orders of superiors
manifestly contrary to the Constitution and the laws may not serve as an
excuse.

Article 47. In no case may Venezuelans or foreigners claim indemnity from
the Republic, the States, or the Municipalities for damages, loss, or
expropriation not caused by legitimate authorities in the exercise of their
public office.

Article 48. Any agent of authority who carries out measures restricting
freedom must identify himself as such when the persons affected so demand.

Article 49. The Courts shall protect every inhabitant of the Republic in the
enjoyment and exercise of the rights and guarantees established in this
Constitution, in conformity with the Law.
Proceedings shall be brief and summary, and the competent judge shall have
the power to reestablish immediately the legal situation infringed.

Article 50. The enunciation of rights and guarantees contained in this
Constitution should not be construed as a denial of others which, being
inherent in the human person, are not expressly mentioned in it.
The lack of a law regulating these rights does not impair the exercise
thereof.

CHAPTER II

Duties

Article 51. Venezuelans have the duty to honor and defend their country, and
to safeguard and protect the interests of the Nation.

Article 52. Both Venezuelans and foreigners must comply with, and obey the
Constitution and the laws, and the decrees, resolutions, and orders issued
by legitimate organs of the Public Power in the exercise of their functions.

Article 53. Military service is compulsory and shall be rendered without
distinction as to class or social condition, in the terms and on the
occasions fixed by law.

Article 54. Work is a duty of every person fit to perform it.

Article 55. Education is compulsory to the extent and under the conditions
fixed by law. Parents and representatives are responsible for compliance
with this duty, and the State shall provide the means whereby all may comply
with it.

Article 56. All persons are obligated to contribute to the public
expenditures.

Article 57. The obligations that belong to the State with respect to the
assistance, education and well-being for the people do not exclude those
which, by virtue of social solidarity, are incumbent on individuals
according to their capacity. The law may impose compliance with these
obligations in cases where it may be necessary. It may also impose on
persons who aspire to practice particular professions the duty to render
services for a certain time in such places and under such conditions as are
indicated.


CHAPTER III

Individual Rights

Article 58. The right to life is inviolable. No law may establish the death
penalty nor any authority carry it out.

Article 59. Every person has the right to be protected against injury to his
honor, reputation, or private life.

Article 60. Personal liberty and safety are inviolable, and consequently:

1. No one may be arrested or detained, unless caught in flagrante, except
by virtue of a written order of an official authorized to decree the
detention, in the cases and with the formalities prescribed by law. The
summary proceedings may not be prolonged beyond the maximum legally fixed
limit.
The accused shall have access to the proceedings of the summary hearing
and to all means of defense prescribed by law as soon as warrant for arrest
is issued.
In the event that a punishable act has been committed, the police
authorities may adopt such provisional measures of necessity or urgency, as
are essential to ensure investigation of the act and trial of the guilty
parties. The law shall fix a brief and peremptory time limit within which
the judicial authorities must be notified of such measures, and shall also
establish a period during which the latter shall rule on them, it being
understood that they have been revoked and are without effect unless
confirmed within that period.
2. No one may be deprived of his liberty on account of obligations the
non-compliance with which has not been defined by law as a crime or
misdemeanor.
3. No one may be held incommunicado or subjected to torture or to other
proceedings which cause physical or moral suffering. Any physical or moral
attack inflicted on a person subjected to restriction of his liberty is
punishable.
4. No one may be required to take an oath or compelled to make a statement
or to acknowledge guilt in a criminal trial against himself, or against his
spouse or the person with whom he lives as if married, or against his
relatives within the fourth degree of consanguinity or second of affinity.
5. No one may be convicted in a criminal trial without first having been
personally notified of the charges and heard in the manner prescribed by
law.
Persons accused of an offense against the res publica may be tried in
absentia, with the guarantees and in the manner prescribed by law.
6. No one shall remain in detention after an order for release has been
issued by a competent authority or after the penalty imposed has been
satisfied. The of bail required by law for granting provisional liberty of
the person detained shall not give rise to any tax.
7. No one may be sentenced to perpetual or infamous punishment. Punishment
involving restriction of liberty may not exceed thirty years .
8. No one may be tried for the same acts by virtue of which he has been
tried previously.
9. No one may be the object of forced recruitment or subjected to military
service except in terms regulated by law.
10. Measures of social interest against dangerous persons may be taken
only by fulfilling the conditions and formalities established by law. Such
measures shall in all cases be directed toward the re-adaptation of the
person to life in society.
Article 61. Discrimination based on race, sex, creed, or social condition
shall not be permitted.
Documents of identification for civil transactions shall contain no
descriptive mention of filiation.
No official form of address shall be used other than "citizen" and "you"
except in diplomatic formulas.
Titles of nobility or hereditary distinction shall not be recognized .

Article 62. The home is inviolable. It may not be broken into except to
prevent the perpetration of a crime or to carry out, in accordance with the
law, decisions of the courts.
Sanitary inspections which are to be made in conformity with the Law may be
undertaken only after prior notice from the officials who order than or who
are to make them.

Article 63. Correspondence in all its forms is inviolable. Letters,
telegrams, private papers, and any other means of correspondence may not be
seized except by judicial authority, with the legal formalities fulfilled
and secrecy always maintained respecting domestic and private affairs that
have no relation to the proceeding concerned. Books, receipts, and
accounting documents may be inspected or audited only by competent
authorities, in conformity with the law.

Article 64. All persons may travel freely through the national territory,
change their domicile or residence, leave and return to the Republic, bring
their property into the country or take it out, with no other limitations
then those established by law. Venezuelans may enter the country without the
necessity of any authorization whatever. No act of the Public Power may
impose the penalty of banishment from the national territory against
Venezuelans, except as commutation of some other punishment and at the
request of the guilty party himself.

Article 65. All persons have the right to profess their religious faith and
to practice their religion privately or publicly, provided that it is not
contrary to the public order or morals .
Worship shall be subject to the supreme inspection of the National
Executive, in conformity with the law.
No one may invoke religious beliefs or disciplines in order to avoid
complying with the laws or to prevent another from exercising his rights.

Article 66. All persons have the right to express their thoughts by the
spoken word or in writing and to make use of any means of dissemination,
without prior censorship; but statements which constitute offenses are
subject to punishment, according to law.
Anonymity is not permitted. Likewise, propaganda for war, that which offends
public morals, and that for the purpose of inciting disobedience of the laws
shall not be permitted, but this shall not preclude analysis or criticism of
legal precepts.

Article 67. All persons have the right to present or address petitions to
any public entity or official concerning matters that are within their
competence, and to obtain an appropriate reply.

Article 68. All persons may make use of the agencies of the administration
of justice to protect their rights and interests, under the terms and
conditions established by law, which shall set rules that ensure the
exercise of this right by anyone who does not have sufficient means.
Defense is an inviolable right at every stage and step of a trial.

Article 69. No one may be judged except by his natural judges or sentenced
to a punishment not established by a pre-existing law.

Article 70. All persons have the right of association for lawful ends, in
conformity with the law.

Article 71. Everyone has the right to meet with others, publicly or
privately, without previous permission, for lawful ends and without arms.
Meetings in public places shall be governed by law.


CHAPTER IV

Social Rights Article 72. The State shall protect associations, corporate
bodies, societies, and communities that have as their purpose the better
fulfillment of the aims of human beings and of social life, and shall
promote the organization of cooperatives and other institutions devoted to
improving the economy of the people.

Article 73. The State shall protect the family as the fundamental nucleus of
society, and shall see to the betterment of its moral and economic
situation.
The law shall protect marriage, shall promote the organization of the
unattachable family patrimony, and shall provide means of helping every
family to acquire comfortable and hygienic housing.

Article 74. Motherhood shall be protected, regardless of the civil status of
the mother. The measures necessary to ensure to every child, without
discrimination of any kind full protection, from his conception until he is
full-grown, so that his development may take place under favorable material
and moral conditions, shall be enacted.

Article 75. The law shall provide means of enabling every child, regardless
of his filiation, to know his parents so that they may fulfill their duty of
aiding, feeding, and educating their children, and so that infancy and youth
may be protected against abandonment, exploitation, or abuse.
Filiation by adoption shall be protected by law. The State shall share with
the parents, in a subsidiary manner and in the light of the resources of the
latter, the responsibility incumbent on them in the rearing of children.
The assistance and protection of minors shall be the object of special
legislation and of special agencies and courts.

Article 76. All persons have a right to the protection of health. The
authorities shall see to the maintenance of public health and shall provide
the means of prevention and care for those who lack them.
All persons are obliged to submit to health measures established by law,
within the limits imposed by respect for the human person.

Article 77. The State shall strive to improve the living conditions of the
rural population.
The law shall establish the special system required for the protection of
Indian communities and their progressive incorporation into the life of the
Nation.

Article 78. All persons have a right to an education. The State shall create
and maintain schools, institutions, and services sufficiently endowed to
ensure an access to education and to culture, with no other limitations than
those deriving from vocation and aptitudes.
Education provided by public institutions shall be free at all levels.
However, the law may establish exceptions with respect to higher and special
education, where persons with means are concerned.

Article 79. Any natural or juridical person may freely devote himself to the
arts or sciences, and, upon demonstrating his capacity, establish
professorships and educational establishments under the supreme inspection
and supervision of the State.
The State shall stimulate and protect private education that is provided in
accordance with the principles contained in this Constitution and the laws.

Article 80. Education shall have as its aim the full development of the
personality, the formation of citizens filled for life and for the exercise
of democracy, the promotion of culture, and the development of a spirit of
human solidarity.
The State shall guide and organize the educational system to achieve the
aims set forth here.

Article 81. Education shall be entrusted to persons of recognized morality
and proven fitness for teaching, according to law.
The law shall guarantee to teachers occupational security and a work system
and standard of living in accord with their elevated mission.

Article 82. The law shall determine what professions require a degree and
what conditions that must be met to practice them. Membership in a
professional association is compulsory for the practice of university
professions so designated by law.

Article 83. The State shall promote culture in its diverse forms and shall
see to the protection and conservation of works, objects, and monuments of
historical or artistic value found within the country, and shall seek to
have them used for the promotion of education.

Article 84. All persons have a right to work. The State shall seek to enable
every fit person to obtain employment that will provide him with a worthy
and decent living.
Freedom of labor shall not be subject to any other restrictions than those
established by law.

Article 85. Labor shall be the object of special protection. The law shall
provide whatever is necessary to improve the material, moral, and
intellectual conditions of workers. Workers may not renounce provisions
established by law to help or protect them.

Article 86. The law shall limit the maximum length of the work day. Except
as specially provided for, the normal duration of work shall not exceed
eight hours a day or forty-eight hours a week, and for night work, in those
cases in which this is permitted, it shall not exceed seven hours a day or
forty-two hours a week.
All workers shall be entitled to a remunerated weekly day of rest and to
paid vacations in conformity with the law.
A progressive reduction in the work day shall be promoted, within the social
interest and in such spheres as are decided upon, and appropriate provisions
shall be made for better utilization of leisure time.

Article 87. The law shall provide means conducive to obtaining fair wages;
it shall establish standards to ensure to every worker at least a minimum
wage; it shall guarantee equal wages for equal work, without discrimination
of any kind; it shall fix the share in the profits of enterprises that
should belong to workers; and it shall protect wages and social benefits by
making them unattachable in the proportion and cases specified and by any
other privileges and guarantees that it may establish.

Article 88. The law shall adopt measures directed toward guaranteeing
employment security and shall establish benefits to compensate workers for
seniority of service and to protect them in case of unemployment.

Article 89. The law shall determine the responsibility incumbent on a
natural or juridical person for whose benefit a service is rendered through
an intermediary or contractor, without prejudice to the joint and several
liability of the latter.

Article 90. The law shall favor the development of collective labor
relations and shall establish appropriate regulations for collective
negotiations and the peaceful solutions of disputes. Collective contracts
shall be supported and the union clause may be included in them, under the
conditions prescribed by law.

Article 91. Unions of workers and of employers shall not be subject to any
other requirements, for existence and operation than those established by
law for the purpose of ensuring a better accomplishment of their proper
functions and of guaranteeing the rights of their members. The law shall
specifically protect in their employment the promoters and leaders of labor
unions during the time and under the conditions required for ensuring union
freedom.

Article 92. Workers have a right to strike, under conditions fixed by law.
In public services this right shall be exercised in such cases as the law
may determine.

Article 93. Women and minor workers shall receive special protection.

Article 94. A system of social security to protect all inhabitants of the
Republic against work accidents, illness, disability, old age, death,
unemployment, and any other risks that can be covered by social security,
and also against the burdens deriving from family life, shall be
progressively developed.

Persons who lack financial means and are not in a position to obtain them
shall have the right to social assistance until they are incorporated into
the social security system.

CHAPTER V
Economic Rights

Article 95. The economic system of the Republic shall be based on principles
of social justice that ensure to all a decent existence useful to the
community.
The State shall promote economic development and the diversification of
production, in order to create new sources of wealth, to raise the income
level of the population, and to strengthen the economic sovereignty of the
country.

Article 96. All persons may freely engage in the lucrative activity of their
choice, with no other limitations than those provided in this Constitution
and those established by law for safety, health, or other reasons of social
interest.
The Law shall enact standards to prevent usury, undue price increases, and,
in general, abusive maneuvers directed toward obstructing or restricting
economic freedom.

Article 97. Monopolies shall not be permitted. Only exclusive concessions
for a limited period may be granted, in conformity with the law, for the
establishment and exploitation of works and services of public interest.
The State may reserve to itself particular industries, exploitations, or
services of public interest, for reasons of national advantage, and shall
promote the creation and development of a basic heavy industry under its
control.
The law shall decide matters concerning industries promoted and directed by
the State.

Article 98. The State shall protect private initiative, without prejudice to
its power to enact measures for planning, rationalizing, and promoting
production and for regulating the circulation, distribution, and consumption
of wealth, in order to stimulate the economic development of the country.

Article 99. The right to own property is guaranteed. By virtue of its social
function property shall be subject to such taxes, restrictions, and
obligations as the law may establish for purposes of public utility or the
general interest

Article 100. Rights in scientific, literary, and artistic works, inventions,
trade, names, trademarks, and slogans shall be entitled to protection for
the time and under the conditions indicated by law.

Article 101. The expropriation of any kind of property may be declared only
for reasons of public benefit, by final judgment and the payment of fair
compensation. In the expropriation of real property for purposes of agrarian
reform or the expansion and improvement of towns, and in such cases as the
law may determine for serious reasons of national interest, payment may be
deferred for a specified time or partially settled by the issuance of bonds
of compulsory acceptance, with sufficient guarantee.

Article 102. Confiscation may not be decreed or executed except in the cases
permitted by article 250. Exempt from this, with respect to foreigners, are
measures accepted by international law.

Article 103. Lands acquired for purposes of exploration or exploitation of
mining concessions, including hydrocarbons and other combustible minerals,
shall revert to full ownership by the Nation, without indemnity of any kind,
when the pertinent concession is terminated for any reason.

Article 104. Railways, highways, pipelines, and other means of communication
or transportation constructed by enterprises exploiting natural resources
shall be at the service of the public, under the conditions and with the
limitations established by law.

Article 105. The system of latifundium is contrary to the social interest.
The law shall order measures conducive to its elimination, and shall
establish rules directed toward granting land to rural workers and
inhabitants who lack it, and toward providing them with the means necessary
for making it productive.

Article 106. The State shall attend to the protection and conservation of
the natural resources within its territory, and their exploitation shall be
directed primarily toward the collective benefit of Venezuelans.

Article 107. The law shall establish rules relative to the participation of
foreign capital in national economic development

Article 108. The Republic shall favor Latin American economic integration.
To this end it shall strive to coordinate resources and efforts to promote
economic development and increase the common well-being and security.

Article 109. The law shall regulate the formation, organization, and powers
of the advisory bodies deemed necessary to hear the opinions of private
economic sectors, the consuming public, organizations of workers,
professional associations, and the universities, in matters of interest to
economic life.

CHAPTER VI
Political Rights

Article 110. Voting is a right and a public function. Its exercise shall be
compulsory, within the limits and conditions established by law.

Article 111. All Venezuelans who have reached eighteen years of age and who
are not subject to civil interdiction or political disqualification are
voters.
Voting in municipal elections may be extended to foreigners, under such
residence and other requirements as the law may establish.

Article 112. Voters who can read and write and who are over twenty-one years
of age may be elected to and are fit to hold public office, with no other
restrictions than those established in this Constitution and those deriving
from the requirements of fitness prescribed by law for holding particular
positions.

Article 113. The electoral legislation shall ensure the freedom and secrecy
of the vote, and shall recognize the right of proportional representation of
minorities.
Electoral bodies shall be composed in such a way that no political party or
group predominates, and their members shall be entitled to the privileges
established by law to ensure independence in the performance of their
functions.
Competing political parties shall have the right of oversight of the
electoral process.

Article 114. All Venezuelans qualified to vote have a right to associate in
political parties in order to participate, by democratic methods, in the
guidance of national policy.
Law makers shall regulate the formation and activities of political parties
in order to ensure their democratic character and to guarantee their
equality before the law.

Article 115. Citizens have a right to demonstrate peacefully and without
arms, with no other requirements than those established by law.

Article 116. The Republic recognizes asylum in behalf of any person who is
the object of persecution or is in danger for political reasons, under the
conditions and requirements established by law and by the standards of
international law.


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TITLE IV
THE PUBLIC POWER

CHAPTER I
General Provisions

Article 117. The Constitution and the laws define the powers of the Public
Power, and their exercise must be subject thereto.

Article 118. Each of the branches of the Public Power has its own functions,
but the organs on which their exercise is incumbent shall collaborate with
one another in the accomplishment of the aims of the State.

Article 119. Any usurped authority is without effect and its acts are null
and void.

Article 120. Any decision arrived at by direct or indirect resort to force
or by a meeting of individuals with subversive intent is null and void.

Article 121. The exercise of the Public Power carries with it individual
liability for abuse of power or for violation of the law.

Article 122. The law shall establish an administrative career by setting
standards for the entry, advancement, transfer, suspension, and retirement
of employees in the National Public Administration, and shall provide for
their incorporation into the social security system.
Public employees are at the service of the State, not at that of any
political faction.
Every public official or employee is obligated to comply with the
requirements established by law for holding his position.

Article 123. No one may hold more than one remunerated public position at
the same time, except for academic, temporary, welfare, teaching,
aldermanic, or electoral positions specified by law. The acceptance of a
second position not exempted by this article implies resignation from the
first, except in those cases provided for in article 141 or where the
position is as an alternate who does not definitively replace the principal.

Article 124. No one in the service of the Republic, of the States, of the
Municipalities, or of any other public juridical person may make a contract
with them, either directly or through an intermediary or in representation
of another, with such exceptions as may be established by law.

Article 125. No public official or employee may accept offices, honors, or
compensation from foreign governments without prior authorization from the
Senate.

Article 126. Without the approval of Congress no contract involving the
national interest may be entered into, except those that are necessary for
the normal conduct of the public administration or those permitted by law.
In no case may new concessions of hydrocarbons or other natural resources
specified by law be granted unless the Chambers in joint session, duly
informed by the National Executive as to all pertinent circumstances, so
authorize, under the conditions they fix, with no waiver there-by of the
fulfillment of legal formalities.
Likewise, no contract involving the national, state, or municipal interest
may be entered into with foreign states or public agencies, or with
companies not domiciled in Venezuela, or be transferred to them, without the
approval of Congress.
The law may require particular conditions as to nationality, domicile, or
others, or may require special guarantees, in contracts involving the public
interest.

Article 127. In contracts involving the public interest, unless their nature
renders it inappropriate, a clause shall be considered incorporated, even if
not expressly stated, whereby any questions and disputes which may arise
concerning such contracts and which are not amicably settled by the
contracting parties shall be decided by the competent courts of the
Republic, in accordance with its laws, and may not for any reason or cause
give rise to foreign claims.

Article 128. International treaties or conventions concluded by the National
Executive must be approved by a special law in order to be valid, unless
they concern the execution or consummation of pre-existing obligations of
the Republic, the application of principles expressly recognized by it, the
execution of ordinary acts in international relations, or the exercise of
powers which the law expressly confers on the National Executive. However,
the Delegated Committee of Congress may authorize the provisional execution
of international treaties or conventions whose urgency so requires, and
these are to be submitted in all cases to the subsequent approval or
disapproval of Congress.
In all cases, the National Executive shall report to Congress, at its next
sessions, all international juridical agreements entered into, with a
precise indication of their nature and contents, whether subject to its
approval or not.

Article 129. In international treaties, conventions , and agreements
concluded by the Republic, a clause shall be inserted whereby the parties
bind themselves to decide by peaceful means recognized by international law
or previously agreed upon by them, if such is the case, all controversies
that may arise between the parties by reason of their interpretation or
execution, if this is not inappropriate and if the procedure to be followed
in concluding so permits.

Article 130. Since the Republic possesses the Right of Ecclesiastical
Patronage, this will be exercised according to law. However, treaties or
conventions may be concluded to regulate relations between the Church and
the State.

Article 131. Military and civilian authority may not be exercised
simultaneously by a single official, except by the President of the
Republic, who shall be, by reason of his office, Commander in Chief of the
National Armed Forces.

Article 132. The National Armed Forces form a non-political, obedient, and
non-deliberative institution, organized by the State to ensure the national
defense, the stability of democratic institutions, and respect for the
Constitution and the laws, the observance of which shall always be above any
other obligation. The National Armed Forces shall be at the service of the
Republic, and in no case at that of any person or political faction.

Article 133. Only the State may possess and use weapons of war. All those
that exist, that are manufactured, or are imported into the country shall
become the property of the Republic, without compensation or proceedings.
The manufacture, trade, possession, and use of other weapons shall be
regulated by law.

Article 134. The States and Municipalities may organize only police forces,
in accordance with the law.

Article 135. The constitutional terms of the National Power shall be five
years, except by special provision in this Constitution. The terms of the
state and municipal public powers shall be by national law and may not be
less than two years or more than five.

CHAPTER II

Competence of the National Power

Article 136. The following are within the competence of the National Power:


1. The international relations of the Republic;
2. The protection and supreme oversight of the general interests of the
Republic, the preservation of the peace, and the just application of the
laws throughout the national territory;
3. The flag, coat of arms, hymn, holidays, decorations, and honors of a
national character;
4. The naturalization, admission, extradition, and expulsion of
foreigners;
5. The identification and national police services;
6. The organization and government of the Federal District and of the
Federal Territories and Dependencies;
7. The monetary system and the circulation of foreign currencies;
8. The organization, collection, and control of taxes on income, capital,
and estates and gifts; of levies on .imports and for registration and fiscal
stamps, and those on the production and consumption of goods which the law
reserves in whole or in part to the National Power, such as those on
alcohol, liquors, cigarettes, matches, and saltworks; those on mines and
hydrocarbons; and all other taxes, excises, and revenues not attributed to
the States or Municipalities which the law may create with a national
character;
9. The organization and operation of the customs;
10. The operation and administration of mines and hydrocarbons, saltworks,
unimproved lands, and oysterpearl beds; and the conservation, development,
and utilization of forests, waters, and other natural resources of the
country.
The National Executive may, in conformity with the law, sell, lease, or
make free grants of unimproved lands; but saltworks may not be alienated and
mining concession may not be granted for an indefinite period.
The law shall establish a system of special appropriations for the benefit
of States within whose territory the property mentioned in this numbered
paragraph is located, without prejudice to the possibility of it also
establishing other special appropriations for the benefit of other States.
In all cases these appropriations shall be subject to the standards on
coordination provided for in article 229 of this Constitution.
Unimproved lands on sea, river, or lake islands may not be alienated, and
concessions for their use may be granted only in a manner that does not
involve, directly or indirectly, a transfer of the ownership of the land,
11. The organization and mode of operation of the National Armed Forces;
12. The system of weights and measures;
13. The national census and statistics;
14. The establishment, coordination, and unification of technical
standards and procedures for engineering, architectural, and urban
development works;
15. The execution of public works of national interest;
16. The directives end bases for national education;
17. The technical direction, the establishment of administrative
standards, and the coordination of services for protection of public health.
The law may provide for the nationalization of these public services in
accordance with the collective interest;
18. The conservation and stimulation of agricultural, fishery, and forest
production;
19. The promotion of low-cost housing;
20. Matters relating to land transportation, to air, maritime, river, and
lake navigation, and to wharves and other port works;
21. The opening and maintenance of national means of communication; aerial
traction cables and railways, even if located within the boundaries of a
State, with the exception of urban streetcars or cable cars, the concession
and regulation of which are within the jurisdiction of the respective
Municipalities;
22. The mails and telecommunications;
23. The administration of justice and the creation, organization, and
competence of the courts; the Public Ministry;
24. Legislation regulating the guarantees conferred by this Constitution;
civil, commercial, criminal, penitentiary and, procedural legislation;
legislation on elections; legislation on expropriation by reason of public
or social utility, that on public credit; that on intellectual, artistic,
and industrial property; agrarian legislation; that on immigration and
settlement; that on tourism; that on labor, welfare, and social security;
that on animal and plant health; that on notaries and public registers; that
on banks and other institutions of credit; that on lotteries, racetracks,
and betting in general; and that concerning all matters within the national
competence;
25. Any other matter which the present Constitution assigns to the
National Power or which pertains to it by its nature or kind.
Article 137. Congress, by a vote of two thirds of the members of the
Chamber, may assign to the States or Municipalities particular matters
within the national competence, in order to promote administrative
decentralization.


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TITLE V
THE NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE POWER

CHAPTER I

General Provisions

Article 138. The Legislative Power is exercised by Congress, which is
composed of two Chambers: the Senate and the Chamber of Deputies .
The Senate and Chamber of Deputies shall meet in joint session in those
cases indicated in this Constitution and the laws, and to enact the
regulations for Congress or whenever both Chambers so decide because they
consider it necessary.
The President of the Senate and the President of the Chamber of Deputies
shall preside over Congress as President and Vice President respectively.
The regulations shall establish the manner of filling their temporary or
occasional absences.
The Delegated Committee of Congress and all other Committees formed by the
Chambers shall perform the functions given to them by this Constitution and
the regulations.

Article 139. Congress shall legislate on matters within the national
competence and on the functioning of the different branches of the National
Power.
It is the privilege of Congress to decree amnesties, which it shall do by
special law.
Congress also exercises control of the National Public Administration within
the terms established by this Constitution.

Article 140. The following may not be elected Senators or Deputies:

1. The President of the Republic, the Ministers, the Secretary to the
President of the Republic, and the President and Director of autonomous
institutes until three months after total separation from their posts;
2. The Governors and Secretaries of Government of the States, the Federal
District, and Federal Territories until three months after total separation
from their posts, if the representation corresponds to their jurisdiction,
or while in office if another jurisdiction is concerned; and
3. National, state, or municipal officials and employees and those of
autonomous institutes or of enterprises in which the State has a deciding
participation, if the election will take place in the jurisdiction where
they serve, except in cases of temporary, electoral, welfare, teaching, or
academic positions, or of legislative or municipal representation.
The law may establish the ineligibility of certain electoral officials .
Article 141. Senators and Deputies may accept posts as Minister, Secretary
to the President of the Republic, Governor, chief of diplomatic mission, or
President of an Autonomous Institute, without losing their office.
To hold them they must withdraw from the pertinent Chamber, but may rejoin
it upon leaving those functions. The acceptance of different mandates by
popular election, in cases permitted by law does not authorize holding them
simultaneously.

Article 142. Senators or Deputies may not be held liable at any time for
votes cast or opinions expressed in the exercise of their functions. They
shall be liable only to the pertinent body in accordance with this
Constitution and the regulations.

Article 143. Senators and Deputies shall enjoy immunity from the date on
which they are proclaimed elected until twenty days after the end of their
term or their resignation, and consequently they may not be arrested,
detained, confined or subjected to criminal trial, search of their person or
home, or restrained in the performance of their functions.
In case of flagrante delicto of a serious nature committed by a Senator or
Deputy, the competent authority shall place him in custody at his residence
and immediately notify the pertinent Chamber or the Delegated Committee of
the fact, with a duly detailed report. This measure shall cease if within a
period of ninety-six hours the pertinent Chamber or the Delegated Committee
does not authorize his remaining in that situation until a decision is
reached on the search and seizure.
Public officials or employees who violate the immunity of Senators and
Deputies incur criminal liability and be punished according to law.

Article 144. The court that hears accusations or complaints against any
member of Congress shall undertake the necessary indictment proceedings and
transmit them to the Supreme Court of Justice for the purposes of section 2
of article 215 of this Constitution. If the Court rules that there are
grounds for continuation of the case, the trial shall not be held until the
search and seizure are first approved by the respective Chamber or the
Delegated Committee.

Article 145. The Chamber or the Delegated Committee may not agree to the
search and seizure except at a session expressly convoked, at least
twenty-four hours in advance, and by a considered decision approved by an
absolute majority of the members.

Article 146. In cases in which the search and seizure have been approved by
the Delegated Committee, the pertinent Chamber may revoke it at its sessions
immediately following.

Article 147. Parliamentary immunity is suspended for a Senator or Deputy
while he is holding a public office that involves separation from the
Chamber or while he is on leave of absence for a time exceeding twenty days,
provided that the summoning of his alternate is in order according to the
regulations.
Alternates shall enjoy immunity while representing their principals, from
the time they are summoned until twenty days after the representation
ceases.

CHAPTER II

The Senate

Article 148. To form the Senate two Senators shall be elected from each
State by universal and direct vote and two from the Federal District, plus
any additional Senators resulting from the application of the principle of
representation of minorities as established by law, which shall also
determine the number and manner of election of alternates.
Also members of the Senate are those citizens who have held the Presidency
of the Republic by popular election or have held it, in accordance with
article 187 of this Constitution, for more than half a term, unless they
have been convicted of an offense committed in the performance of their
functions.

Article 149. To be a Senator a person must be a Venezuelan by birth and over
thirty years of age.

Article 150.The powers of the Senate are:

1. To initiate the discussion of bills relating to treaties and
international agreements;
2. To authorize the National Executive to alienate real property from the
private domain of the Nation, with such exceptions as the law may establish;
3. To authorize public officials or employees to accept posts, honors, or
recompense from foreign governments;
4. To authorize the use of Venezuelan military missions abroad or of
foreign missions within the country, at the request of the National
Executive;
5. To authorize the promotion of officers of the Armed Forces from Colonel
or Naval Captain inclusive;
6. To authorize the President of the Republic to leave the national
territory;
7. To authorize the appointment of the Attorney General of the Republic
and the chiefs of permanent diplomatic missions;
8. To authorize, by vote of a majority of its numbers, the trial of the
President of the Republic following a ruling by the Supreme Court of Justice
that there are grounds therefor. If the trial is authorized, the President
of the Republic is suspended from office .
9. To grant to illustrious Venezuelans who have rendered eminent services
to the Republic the honors of the National Pantheon, when twenty-five years
have elapsed since their death;
10. Any others assigned to it in this Constitution or the laws.
CHAPTER III

The Chamber of Deputies

Article 151. To form the Chamber of Deputies the number of Deputies
determined by law according to the required population base, which may not
exceed one percent of the total population of the country, shall be elected
by universal and direct vote and with proportional representation of
minorities.
The law shall fix the number and manner of election of alternates .
At least two Deputies shall be elected in each State.

Article 152. In order to be a Deputy a person must be a Venezuelan by birth
and over twenty-one years of age.

Article 153. The powers of the Chamber of Deputies are:

1. To initiate the discussion of the budget and of any bill concerning the
system of taxation;
2. To adopt a vote of censure of the Ministers.
A motion of censure may only be discussed two days after it is presented
to the Chamber, which may decide, by two thirds of the Deputies present,
that the vote of censure includes removal of the Minister. It may, in
addition, order his trial;
3. Any others assigned to it in this Constitution and the laws.
CHAPTER IV

Common Provisions

Article 154. The regular sessions of the Chambers shall begin, without the
necessity of prior convocation, on March 2 of each year or the most
immediately subsequent day possible and shall last until the following July
6. These regular sessions shall resume each year from October 1, or the most
immediately subsequent day possible, until November 30, both inclusive. In
the last year of a constitutional term the regular session shall last from
March 2 until August 15. In any case, the Chambers in joint session, by a
vote of an absolute majority of their members, may prolong these periods,
when necessary, for the dispatch of pending matters.

Article 155. Congress shall meet in special sessions to deal with matters
stated in the convocation and others connected therewith. It may also
consider those declared to be urgent by either Chamber.

Article 156. The requirements and procedures for the installation and other
sessions of the Chambers, and for the functioning of their Committees, shall
be determined by the regulations.
A quorum may in no case be less than an absolute majority of the members of
each Chamber.

Article 157. The Chambers shall open and close simultaneously, and they must
meet in the same town. Any difference that may arise between them shall be
resolved in joint session, by the vote of an absolute majority of those
present.

Article 158. The following are exclusive powers of each of the legislative
bodies:

1. To issue its regulations and apply such sanctions as are established
therein against those who infringe them. The temporary removal of a Senator
or Deputy may be approved only by a two-thirds vote of those present;
2. To rule on the qualifications of its members and take cognizance of
their resignations;
3. To organize its police services;
4. To remove obstacles that may prevent the exercise of its functions;
5. To approve and execute its budget of expenses on the basis of the
annual item fixed in the pertinent law;
6. To execute and order the execution of resolutions concerning its
functioning and the exclusive powers previously enunciated.
Article 159. Acts of the legislative bodies in the exercise of their
exclusive powers shall not be subject to the veto, examination, or control
of the other powers, except as provided in this Constitution concerning the
abuse of powers.

Article 160. The legislative bodies or their Committees may undertake any
investigation they dean advisable, in conformity with the regulations.
All officials of the public administration and of the autonomous institutes
are obligated, under penalty of such sanctions as are establish by law, to
appear before them and to furnish such information and documents as are
required for the fulfillment of their functions.
This obligation is also incumbent on private individuals, except as limited
by the rights and guarantees established by this Constitution.
In all cases the interested party shall be notified of the purpose of his
summons at least forty-eight hours in advance.

Article 161. Exercise of the power of investigation to which the preceding
article refers does not affect the authority appertaining to the Judicial
Power in accordance with this Constitution and the laws.
Judges shall be obligated to adduce evidence for which they receive a
request from the legislative bodies.

CHAPTER V

Enactment of laws

Article 162. Acts approved by the Chambers as co-legislative bodies shall be
termed laws. Laws which systematically assemble the rules relating to a
given subject may be termed Codes.

Article 163. Organic laws are those which are so designated by this
Constitution and those which are invested with this character by an absolute
majority of each Chamber when the pertinent bill is introduced there.
Laws which are enacted on matters governed by organic laws shall be subject
to the norms of the latter.

Article 164. Bills may be introduced in either Chamber, except those which
by special provision of this Constitution must necessarily be introduced in
either the Senate or the Chamber of Deputies .

Article 165. The initiative for bills appertains to:

1. The Delegated Committee of Congress or the Permanent Committees of
either Chamber;
2. The National Executive;
3. Senators and Deputies numbering not less than three;
4. The Supreme Court of Justice, when the laws concerned relate to
judicial organization or procedures;
5. Not less than twenty thousand voters, identified according to law.
Article 166. Every bill shall have at least two discussions in each Chamber,
on different days and in full Chamber, in accordance with the rules
established in this Constitution and in their respective regulations.

Article 167. When a bill is approved in one of the Chambers it shall be sent
to the other. If the latter approves it without amendments, it becomes
sanctioned as law. If it approves it with amendments it shall return it to
the Chamber of origin.
If the Chamber of origin accepts the amendments, it is thereby sanctioned as
law. Otherwise, the Chambers in joint sessions shall decide by majority vote
what is to be done with the articles on which there are discrepancies and
those having a connection with them, and they may agree on a text different
from that adopted by either Chamber. When the differences have been settled,
the Presidency shall declare the law sanctioned.

Article 168. A bill approved by one Chamber may be approved by the other in
a single discussion if declared urgent by two thirds of its members.

Article 169. Bills rejected may not be considered again in either Chamber
during the sessions of the same year, unless presented by an absolute
majority of one of them.
The discussion of bills that are pending at the end of one session may be
continued in the following sessions if so decided by the pertinent Chamber.

Article 170. In the discussion of laws relating to judicial organization and
procedure, Ministers have the right to voice in the discussion of laws. A
Magistrate of the Supreme Court of Justice designated by the latter for that
purpose has the same right.

Article 171. The text of laws shall obey the following formula:
"The Congress of the Republic of Venezuela, Decrees".

Article 172. As soon as a law is sanctioned it shall be issued in duplicate
in the final text resulting from the discussions. Both copies shall be
signed by the President, the Vice President, and the Secretaries of
Congress, and shall bear the date of final approval. For purposes of
promulgation, one of these copies shall be sent by the President of Congress
to the President of the Republic.

Article 173. The President of the Republic shall promulgate the law within
ten days after the date of receipt, but within that period he may, with the
approval of the Council of Ministers, ask Congress for its reconsideration,
by means of an explanatory statement in order that certain provisions may be
amended or its sanction of all or part of the law be withdrawn.
The Chambers in joint session shall decide on the points raised by the
President of the Republic and may write a new text for the provisions
objected to and those connected with them.
When a decision has been adopted by two-thirds of those present, the
President of the Republic shall proceed with the promulgation of the law
within the five days following its receipt, and he may not offer new
comments.
When the decision has been reached by simple majority, the President of the
Republic may choose between promulgating the law and returning it to
Congress within the same five-day period for a new and final
reconsideration. The decision of the Chamber in joint session is definitive,
even if by simple majority, and the promulgation of the law must be made
within the five days following its receipt.
In any case, if the objection is based on unconstitutionality, the President
of the Republic may, within the period fixed for promulgating of a law, have
recourse to the Supreme Court of Justice, requesting its decision as to the
alleged unconstitutionality. The Court shall decide within a period of ten
days, counted from the date of receipt of the communication from the
President of the Republic. If the Court denies the claim of
unconstitutionality, or does not decide within the aforementioned period,
the President of the Republic must promulgate the law within five days after
the decision of the Court or the expiration of that period .

Article 174. A law shall become promulgated upon being published with the
corresponding "Cúmplase" (a formula of approval) in the Official Gazette of
the Republic.

Article 175. Whenever the President of the Republic does not promulgate a
law within the periods indicated, the President and Vice President of
Congress shall proceed with its promulgation, without prejudice to any
liability incurred by the President of the Republic for his omission. In
such cases the promulgation of the law be made in the Official Gazette of
the Republic or in the Gazette of Congress.

Article 176. The time period for the promulgation of a law approving an
international treaty, convention, or agreement is left to the discretion of
the National Executive, in conformity with international usage and the
convenience of the Republic.

Article 177. Laws may be repealed only by other laws, and they may be
amended wholly or in part. A law which has been partially amended shall be
published in a single text which incorporates the amendments approved.

CHAPTER VI

The Delegated Committee of Congress

Article 178. While the Chambers are in recess there shall function a
Committee composed of the President, Vice President, and twenty-one members
of Congress who, with their respective alternates, shall be elected in a
manner that reflects as far as possible the political composition of the
Congress. The pertinent regulations shall establish the manner and time of
electing the Delegated Committee and its internal operation.

Article 179.The Powers of the Delegated Committee of Congress are :

1. To ensure the observance of the Constitution and respect for citizens'
guarantees and to adopt far these purposes such measures as may be called
for;
2. To exercise the functions of investigation invested in the legislative
bodies;
3. To designate special committees consisting of members of Congress ;
4. To convoke Congress into special session when the importance of a
matter so demands;
5. To authorize the National Executive, by a favorable vote of two thirds
of its members, to create, modify, or abolish public services, in case of
proven urgency;
6. To authorize the National Executive to decree credits outside the
Budget;
7. To authorize the President of the Republic to leave the national
territory temporarily;
8. Any others conferred on it by this Constitution and the laws .
Article 180. The Delegated Committee shall report its actions to Congress .


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TITLE VI
THE NATIONAL EXECUTIVE POWER

CHAPTER I

The President of the Republic

Article 181. The Executive Power is exercised by the President of the
Republic and any other officials determined by this Constitution and the
laws.
The President of the Republic is the chief of State and of the National
Executive.

Article 182. To be elected President of the Republic a person must be a
Venezuelan by birth, over thirty years of age, and a layman.

Article 183. The election of the President of the Republic shall be by
universal and direct vote, in conformity with the law. The candidate who
obtains a relative majority of votes shall be proclaimed elected.

Article 184. No one may be elected President of the Republic who is holding
the Presidency at the time of an election or has held it for more than one
hundred days in the immediately preceding year, or his relatives within the
third degree of consanguinity or second of affinity.
Likewise, no one who is holding the position of Minister, Governor, or
Secretary to the Presidency of the Republic on the day of his becoming a
candidate or at any time between that date and the election may be elected
President of the Republic.

Article 185. Anyone who has occupied the Presidency of the Republic for a
constitutional term or for more than half thereof may not again be President
of the Republic or perform that office within the ten years following the
termination of his mandate.

Article 186. The elected candidate shall assume the office of President of
the Republic by taking an oath before the Chambers meeting in joint session
within the first ten days in which they are to inaugurate their regular
sessions for the year in which a constitutional term begins. If for any
reason he is unable to take the oath before the Chambers in joint session,
he shall do so before the Supreme Court of Justice. Whenever the
President-elect does not take office within the period provided for in this
article, the outgoing President shall resign his powers before the person
called upon to replace him provisionally in case of absolute vacancy, in
accordance with the following article, who shall exercise them as Chargé of
the Presidency of the Republic, until the President-elect assumes the post.

Article 187. Whenever there is an absolute vacancy before the
President-elect takes office, a new universal and direct election shall be
held on the date set by the Chambers in joint session. If the absolute
vacancy occurs after the assumption of office, the Chambers shall, within
the next thirty days, proceed to elect a new President, by secret vote and
in joint session, for the remainder of the constitutional term. In this case
the provisions of article 184 shall not apply.
In either case, until a new President is elected and assumes office, the
Presidency shall be occupied by the President of Congress; if there is none,
by the Vice President of Congress and, in his default, by the President of
the Supreme Court of Justice.

Article 188. Temporary absences of the President of the Republic shall be
filled by a Minister designated by the President himself and, in his
default, by the person called upon to fill an absolute vacancy in accordance
with the preceding article. If the temporary absence is prolonged for more
than ninety consecutive days, the Chambers in joint session shall decide
whether an absolute vacancy should by considered to exist.

Article 189. The President, or whoever is acting in his stead, may not leave
the national territory without authorization from the Senate or from the
Delegated Committee. Nor may do so without such authorization within the six
months following the date on which he leaves office.

CHAPTER II

Powers of the President of the Republic

Article 190. The powers and duties of the President of the Republic are:

1. To enforce this Constitution and the laws;
2. To appoint and remove the Ministers;
3. To exercise, as Commander in Chief of the National Armed Forces, the
highest-ranking authority over them;
4. To fix the size of the National Armed Forces;
5. To direct the foreign affairs of the Republic and make and ratify
international treaties, conventions, or agreements;
6. To declare a state of emergency and order the restriction or suspension
of guarantees in the cases provided for in this Constitution;
7. To adopt measures necessary for the defense of the Republic, the
integrity of its territory, and its sovereignty, in the event of
international emergency;
8. To enact extraordinary measures in economic or financial matters
whenever the public interest so requires and he has been authorized to do so
by special law;
9. To convoke Congress into extraordinary session;
10. To regulate the laws in whole or in part, without altering their
spirit, purpose, or sense;
11. To order, in case of proven emergency during a recess of the creation
and funding of new public services, or the modification or abolition of
those in existence, with the authorization of the Delegated Committee;
12. To administer the National Public Finances;
13. To negotiate national loans;
14. To decree credits outside the Budget, with the authorization of the
Chambers in joint session, or of the Delegated Committee ;
15. To make contracts in the national interest permitted by this
Constitution and the laws;
16. To appoint, with the authorization of the Senate or of the Delegated
Committee of Congress, the Attorney General of the Republic and the heads of
permanent diplomatic missions;
17. To appoint and remove the Governor of the Federal District and the
Federal Territories;
18. To appoint and remove, in accordance with the law, those national
officials and employees whose appointment is not vested in some other
authority;
19. To assemble in convention any or all of the Governors of the federal
entities for better coordination of the plans and tasks of the public
administration;
20. To submit to Congress, personally or through one of the Ministers,
special reports and messages;
21. To grant pardons;
22. Any others assigned to him in this Constitution or the laws. The
President of the Republic shall exercise in Council of Ministers the powers
enumerated in sections 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 15 and those which he
is empowered by law to exercise in the same manner.

Acts of the President of the Republic, with the exception of those mentioned
in sections 2 and 3 of this article, must be countersigned by the
appropriate Minister or Ministers in order to be valid.

Article 191. Within the first ten days following the installation of
Congress in regular sessions, the President of the Republic, personally or
through one of the Ministers, shall present each year to the Chambers
meeting in joint session a Message in which he shall give an accounting of
the political and administrative aspects of his actions during the
immediately preceding year. In this Message the President shall set forth
the features of the plan for the economic and social development of the
Nation.
The Message corresponding to the last year of a constitutional term must be
presented within the first five days following the installation of Congress.

Article 192. The President of the Republic is liable for his acts, in
conformity with this Constitution and the laws.

CHAPTER III

The Ministers

Article 193. The Ministers are the direct agents of the President of the
Republic, and together comprise the Council of Ministers. The President of
the Republic shall preside over meetings of the Council of Ministers, but he
may designate a Minister to preside whenever he is unable to attend. In this
case, the decisions taken shall not be valid unless they are confirmed by
the President of the Republic. An organic law shall determine the manner and
organization of the Ministries and their respective competence, and also the
organization and functioning of the Council of Ministers.

Article 194. The President of the Republic may appoint Ministers of State
without assigning them a specific department. In addition to participating
in the Council of Ministers and advising the President of the Republic on
such matters as he entrusts to them, the Ministers of State may take charge
of matters assigned to them by law.

Article 195. To be a Minister a person must be a Venezuelan by birth, over
thirty years of age, and a layman.

Article 196. Ministers are liable for their acts, in conformity with this
Constitution and the laws, even when they act under the express orders of
the President. Ministers who when present shall be jointly and severally
liable for decisions of the Council of Ministers, with the exception of
those who have made known their adverse or negative vote.

Article 197. Each Minister shall present to the Chambers in joint session,
within the first ten days of a regular session, a reasoned and adequate
report on the actions of his Department during the immediately preceding
calendar year and on its plans for the following year. He shall also present
an accounting of the funds he has managed. The reports corresponding to the
last year of a constitutional term must be presented within the first five
days following the installation of Congress.

Article 198. No pronouncement of the legislative bodies concerning the
reports or accounts shall free a Minister from liability for the acts of his
Department. In any case, and as long as prescription has not taken effect,
they may undertake an investigation and examination of those acts, even if
they pertain to previous fiscal periods.

Article 199. Ministers have the right to voice in the Chambers and in their
Committees, and they are obligated to attend them when called upon to report
or to answer interpellations.

CHAPTER IV

The Office of the Attorney General of the Republic

Article 200. The Office of the Attorney General of the Republic shall be
under the responsibility and direction of the Attorney General of the
Republic, with the collaboration of such other officials as the law
determines.

Article 201. The Attorney General of the Republic must have the same
qualifications as those required of a Magistrate of the Supreme Court of
Justice, and shall be appointed by the President of the Republic with the
authorization of the Senate.
If during a recess of the Chambers an absolute vacancy occurs in the post of
Attorney General of the Republic, the President of the Republic shall make a
new appointment with the authorization of the Delegated Committee of
Congress. Temporary and occasional absences shall be filled in the manner
determined by law.

Article 202. The functions of the Attorney General of the Republic are:

1. To represent and defend the patrimonial interests of the Republic
judicially or extrajudicially;
2. To render opinions in the cases and with the effects indicated in the
laws;
3. To give legal advice to the National Public Administration;
4. Any others attributed to him by law.
All legal advisory services of the National Public Administration shall
collaborate with the Attorney General of the Republic in the performance of
his functions, in the manner determined by law.

Article 203. The Attorney General of the Republic may attend, with the right
to voice, meetings of the Council of Ministers when called upon by the
President of the Republic.


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TITLE VII
THE JUDICIAL, POWER AND THE PUBLIC MINISTRY

CHAPTER I

General Provisions

Article 204. The Judicial Power is exercised by the Supreme Court of Justice
and by such other courts as the organic law determines .

Article 205. In carrying out their functions judges are autonomous and
independent of the other organs of the Public Power.

Article 206. Jurisdiction in matters of administrative law is vested in the
Supreme Court of Justice and in such other Courts as the law determines.
The organs of the administrative-law jurisdiction are competent to annul
general or individual administrative acts that are contrary to law,
including misuse of power; to issue judgments requiring the payment of sums
of money and the redress of damages originating in administrative liability;
and to order whatever is necessary for the reinstatement of subjective
juridical situations injured by administrative activity.

Article 207. The law shall provide whatever conduces to the establishment of
a judicial career and to ensuring the fitness, stability, and independence
of judges, and shall establish rules relating to the competence,
organization, and functioning of the Courts insofar as this is not provided
for in this Constitution.

Article 208. Judges may not be removed or suspended from office except in
such cases and according to such procedure as the law determines .

Article 209. All other authorities of the Republic shall offer judges the
collaboration they may require for the proper performance of their
functions.

Article 210. The law shall determine matters relating to inspection of the
functioning of the Courts, the means for attending to their functional and
administrative needs, and the organization of auxiliary judicial services,
all without impairing the autonomy and independence of judges.

CHAPTER II

The Supreme Court of Justice

Article 211. The Supreme Court of Justice is the highest Tribunal of the
Republic. No recourse of any kind will be heard or admitted against its
decisions.

Article 212. The Supreme Court of Justice shall function in Divisions, the
composition and competence of which shall be determined by law. Each
Division shall have at least five Magistrates.

Article 213. To be a Magistrate of the Supreme Court of Justice a person
must be a Venezuelan by birth, a lawyer, and over thirty years of age.
In addition to these qualifications, the organic law may require practice of
the legal profession, a judgeship, or university teaching of legal subjects
for a specified time.

Article 214. Magistrates of the Supreme Court of Justice shall be elected by
the Chambers in joint session for terms of nine years, but they shall be
renewed by thirds every three years. Alternates shall be appointed in the
same manner to fill absolute vacancies among the Magistrates; temporary or
occasional vacancies shall be filled in the manner determined by law.

Article 215. The powers of the Supreme Court of Justice are:

1. To declare whether or not there are grounds for the trial of the
President of the Republic or persons acting in his stead, and, if there are,
to continue trying the case, with the authorization of the Senate, until
final sentence is issued;
2. To declare whether or not there are grounds for the trial of members of
Congress or of the Court itself, of the Ministers, the Prosecutor General,
the Attorney General, or the Comptroller General of the Republic, the
Governors, or the chief of diplomatic missions of the Republic, and, if
there are, to transmit the case to the competent regular Court, if a common
offense, or continue trying the case until final sentence if a political
offense, except as provided in Article 144 with respect to members of
Congress.
3. To declare the total or partial nullity of national laws and other acts
of the legislative bodies that conflict with this Constitution;
4. To declare the total or partial nullity of state laws, municipal
ordinances, and other acts of the deliberative bodies of the States and
Municipalities that conflict with this Constitution;
5. To settle any conflicts that may exist between different legal
provisions and declare which of them is to prevail;
6. To declare the nullity of regulations and other acts of the National
Executive when they violate this Constitution;
7. To declare the nullity of administrative acts of the National Executive
whenever this is appropriate;
8. To settle controversies in which one of the parties is the Republic or
a State or Municipality, when the other party is also one of these entities,
except for controversies between Municipalities in the same State, in which
case the law may provide that the case be heard by another Court;
9. To decide conflicts of competence between Courts, either regular or
special, when there is no other higher court common to them;
10. To hear cases in cessation;
11. Any others conferred on it by law.
Article 216. The powers enumerated in sections 1 to 6 of the preceding
article shall be exercised by the full Court. Decisions shall be rendered by
an absolute majority of all Magistrates.
The organic law may grant the powers enumerated in sections 2, 3, 4, 5, and
6 to a Federal Division presided over by the President of the Court and
composed of Magistrates who have competence in administrative-law matters,
in number not less than two representatives of each of the other Divisions.

CHAPTER III

The Council on the Judiciary

Article 217. The pertinent organic law shall create a Council on the
Judiciary, the organization and powers of which it shall fix for the purpose
of ensuring the independence, efficiency, discipline, and decorum of the
Courts and of guaranteeing the benefits of a judicial career to judges.
Adequate representation on it must be given to the other branches of the
Public Power.

CHAPTER IV

The Public Ministry

Article 218. The Public Ministry shall oversee the strict observance of the
Constitution and the laws, and shall be in charge and under the direction
and responsibility of the Prosecutor General of the Republic, with the help
of such officials as the organic law determines.

Article 219. The Prosecutor General of the Republic must have the same
qualifications as those of Magistrates of the Supreme Court of Justice, and
shall be elected by the Chambers in joint session within the first thirty
days of each constitutional term. In the event of an absolute vacancy in the
post of Prosecutor General, a new election shall be held for the remainder
of the constitutional term. Temporary and occasional absences of the
Prosecutor General of the Republic, and the interim vacancy before an
absolute vacancy is filled, shall be filled in the manner determined by law.

Article 220. The powers of the Public Ministry are:

1. To see to it that constitutional rights and guarantees are respected.
2. To see to it that the administration of justice is swift and smooth and
that the courts of the Republic apply the laws fairly in criminal trials and
those that concern the public order and good morals ;
3. To bring criminal actions in cases in which a petition by a party is
not necessary to initiate and prosecute them, without prejudice to the right
of courts to act directly when the law so provides;
4. To see to the correct enforcement of the laws and the guarantee of
human rights in jails and other prison establishments;
5. To initiate such actions as may be appropriate to enforce civil,
criminal, administrative, or disciplinary liability incurred by public
officials in carrying out their functions; and
6. Any others conferred on it by law.
The powers given to the Public Ministry shall not impair the exercise of
the rights and actions pertaining to private individuals or to other
officials in accordance with this Constitution and the laws.
Article 221. The authorities of the Republic shall give to the Public
Ministry whatever collaboration it may require for the proper performance of
its functions.

Article 222. The Prosecutor General of the Republic shall present a report
of his activities to Congress annually, within the first thirty days of its
regular sessions.


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TITLE VIII
THE PUBLIC FINANCES

CHAPTER I

General provisions

Article 223. The system of taxation shall seek a fair distribution of
burdens in accordance with the economic capacity of the taxpayer, based on
the principle of progressivity and also the protection of the national
economy and the raising of the standard of living of the people.

Article 224. No tax or other contribution may be collected that is not
established by law, and no exemptions or exonerations from them may be
granted except in the cases provided for in such a law.

Article 225. No tax payable in personal services may be established .

Article 226. A law which establishes or amends a tax or other contribution
must fix a period of time before it is to take effect. If this is not done,
it may not take effect until sixty days after it has been promulgated.
This provisions does not limit the extraordinary powers which are granted to
the National Executive in the cases provided for in this Constitution.

Article 227. No expenditure shall be made from the National Treasury that
has not been provided for in the Budget Law. Credits additional to the
budget may be decreed only for necessary expenditures not provided for or
for which the items were insufficient, and only if that the Treasury has the
funds to meet the expenditure. For this purpose a favorable vote of the
Council of Ministers and the authorization of the Chambers in joint session
or, if in recess, of the Delegated Committee shall be prerequisite.

Article 228. The National Executive shall submit the proposed Budget Law to
Congress at the time indicated in the organic law. The Chambers may alter
budgetary items but may not authorize expenditures that exceed the amount of
estimated revenues in the proposed Budget.

Article 229. The Budget Law shall include annually, with the name
"allotment," an item which is to be distributed among the States, the
Federal District, and the Federal Territories in the following manner:
thirty percent (30%) of the amount in equal parts and the remaining seventy
percent (70%) to be divided in proportion to the population of each of the
Entities mentioned. This item shall not be less than twelve and a half
percent (12.5%) of the total estimated ordinary revenues in the budget, and
this minimum percentage shall be increased annually and consecutively, and
you're not reading this, are you, you moron, cause you were just mouthing
off about wanting to read about other countries, isn't that true, beginning
with the budget for 1962, by at least one half percent (0.5%) until it
reaches a definitive minimum of fifteen percent (15%). The pertinent organic
law shall determine the share corresponding to municipal entities under this
allotment.
The law may enact rules to coordinate the expenditure of this allotment with
administrative plans developed by the National Power, and may set limits on
the emoluments to be received by officials and employees of federal and
municipal entities.
In the event of a decrease in revenues that requires a readjustment of the
Budget, the allotment will be readjusted proportionally.

Article 230. Autonomous institutes may be created only by law, and in
conformity with the pertinent organic law.
Autonomous institutes and the State interest in corporate bodies or entities
of any nature shall be subject to the control of Congress, in the manner
established by law.

Article 231. Loans may be contracted only for income-producing works, except
in case of obvious national necessity or advantage.
Public credit operations shall require, in order to be valid, a special law
which authorizes them, with only such exceptions as are established in the
organic law.

Article 232. The State shall recognize no other obligations than those
contracted by legitimate organs of the National Power, in accordance with
the laws.

Article 233. The provisions which govern the National Public Finances shall
govern the Public Finances of the States and Municipalities insofar as they
are applicable.

CHAPTER II

The Office of the Comptroller General of the Republic

Article 234. The Office of the Comptroller General of the Republic is
entrusted with the monitoring, supervision, and auditing of the national
revenues, expenditures, and assets, and of operations related to them.
The law shall determine the organization and functioning of the Office of
the Comptroller General of the Republic, and the occasions, nature, and
scope of its intervention.

Article 235. The functions of the Office of the Comptroller General of the
Republic may be extended by law to the autonomous institutes, and also to
the state or municipal administrations, without impairing the autonomy which
is guaranteed to them by this Constitution.

Article 236. The Office of the Comptroller General of the Republic is an
auxiliary organ of Congress in its function of monitoring the Public
Finances, and shall enjoy junctional autonomy in exercising its powers.

Article 237. The Office of the Comptroller General of the Republic shall
function under the direction and responsibility of the Comptroller General
of the Republic.
To be Comptroller General of the Republic a person must be a Venezuelan by
birth, over thirty years of age, and a layman.

Article 238. The members in joint session shall elect the Comptroller
General of the Republic within the first thirty days of each constitutional
term.
In the event of an absolute vacancy in the post of Comptroller General of
the Republic, the Chambers in joint session shall conduct a new election for
the remainder of the constitutional term.
Temporary and occasional absences of the Comptroller General of the
Republic, and the interim vacancy before an absolute vacancy is filled,
shall be filled in the manner determined by law.

Article 239. The Comptroller General of the Republic shall present to
Congress annually a report of the activities of his Office or concerning the
Account or Accounts that have been presented to Congress by agencies and
officials required to do so. He shall also present such reports as may be
requested by Congress or the National Executive at any time.


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TITLE IX
EMERGENCY

Article 240. The President of the Republic may declare a state of emergency
in the event of internal or external conflict or whenever there exists good
cause that either may occur.

Article 241. In case of emergency, of disorder that may disturb the peace of
the Republic, or of serious circumstances that affect economic or social
life, the President of the Republic may restrict or suspend the
constitutional guarantees, or some of them, with the exception of those
proclaimed in article 58 and in sections 3 and 7 of article 60.
The Decree shall state the grounds on which it is based, the guarantees that
are restricted or suspended, and whether it shall be in force in all or part
of the national territory.
The restriction or suspension of guarantees does not interrupt the
functioning or affect the prerogatives of the organs of the National Power.

Article 242. The Decree which declares a state of emergency or orders the
restriction or suspension of guarantees shall be issued in Council of
Ministers and submitted for consideration by the Chambers in joint session
or by the Delegated Committee, within the ten days following its
publication.

Article 243. The Decree of restriction or suspension of guarantees shall be
revoked by the National Executive, or by the Chambers in joint session, as
soon as the reasons for it have ended. Cessation of the state of emergency
shall be declared by the President of the Republic in Council of Ministers
and with the authorization of the Chambers in joint session or of the
Delegated Committee.

Article 244. If there is well-founded evidence for fearing imminent
disturbance of the public order which do not justify the restriction or
suspension of constitutional guarantees, the President of the Republic, in
Council of Ministers, may adopt the measures necessary to prevent such
events from occurring.
Such measures shall be limited to the detention or confinement of the
suspects, and must be submitted to the consideration of Congress or of the
Delegated Committee within the ten days following their adoption. If either
body declares them to be unjustified, they shall terminate immediately;
otherwise they may be maintained up to a limit of not more than ninety days.
The law shall regulate the exercise of this power.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

TITLE X

AMENDMENTS AND REFORM OF THE CONSTITUTION

Article 245. Amendments to this Constitution shall be made in the following
manner:

1. The initiative may come from one fourth of the members of one of the
Chambers, or from one fourth of the Legislative Assemblies of the States, by
decisions taken in not less than two discussions by an absolute majority of
the members of each Assembly;
2. The amendment shall be initiated in regular sessions, but action
thereon may continue in subsequent special sessions;
3. The bill containing the amendment shall be introduced in the Chamber
where it was proposed, or in the Senate if it was proposed by the
Legislative Assemblies, and it shall be discussed according to the procedure
established in this Constitution for the enactment of laws;
4. If the amendment is approved by Congress, its Presidency shall transmit
it to all the Legislative Assemblies for ratification or rejection in
regular sessions, by decisions considered in at least two discussions and
approved by an absolute majority of their members;
5. The Chambers meeting in joint session, in their regular session of the
following year, shall count the votes of the legislative Assemblies and
declare the amendment approved with respect to those points that have been
ratified by two thirds of the Assemblies;
6. Amendments shall be numbered consecutively and shall be published at
the end of the Constitution, without altering the text of the latter, but
with a footnote to the amended article or articles giving the number and
date of the amendment.
Article 246. This Constitution may also be subject to a general reform, in
accordance with the following procedure:

1. The initiative must come from one third of the members of Congress, or
from an absolute majority of the Legislative Assemblies by decisions adopted
in at least two discussions by an absolute majority of the members of each
Assembly;
2. The initiative shall be transmitted to the Presidency of Congress,
which shall convoke the Chambers in joint session with at least three days'
advance notice, to decide whether it is in order. The initiative shall be
admitted by a two-thirds vote of those present;
3. If the initiative is admitted, discussion of the bill shall begin in
the Chamber indicated by Congress, and the procedure established in this
Constitution for the enactment of laws shall be followed;
4. The approved bill shall be submitted to referendum at a time fixed by
the Chambers in joint session so that the people may express themselves in
favor of or against the reform. The count of the votes will be communicated
to the Chambers in joint session, which shall declare the new Constitution
sanctioned if it is approved by a majority of the voters of the entire
Republic.
Article 247. Rejected initiatives of amendment or reform may not be
reintroduced during the same constitutional term.

Article 248. The President of the Republic may not veto amendments or
reforms and is obligated to promulgate them within the ten days following
their sanction. If he does not do so the provisions of article 175 shall
apply.

Article 249. The provisions relating to cases of urgency in the procedure
for the enactment of laws shall not be applicable to amendments and reforms
of the Constitution.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

TITLE XI
INVIOLABILITY OF THE CONSTITUTION

Article 250. This Constitution shall not lose its effect even if its
observance is interrupted by force or it is repealed by means other than
those provided herein. In such eventuality, every citizen, whether or not
vested with authority, has the duty to collaborate in the re-establishment
of its effective validity.

Those who are found responsible for the acts mentioned in the first part of
the preceding paragraph shall be tried in accordance with this Constitution
and laws enacted in conformity with it, as shall the principal officials of
governments subsequently organized if they have not contributed to the
re-establishment of its force and effect. Congress may decree, by decision
approved by an absolute majority of its members, the confiscation of all or
part of the property of such persons and of those who have been unlawfully
enriched under the protection,***** the usurpation, in order to indemnify
the Republic for the damages it has incurred.


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----

TITLE XII

FINAL PROVISIONS

Article 251. The transitory provisions are enacted in a separate text. They
have the validity of constitutional principles and are sanctioned by the
same formalities as those by which the present Constitution is adopted.
Their text shall not be subject to amendment except by the procedure
provided in Title X.

Article 252. The constitutional order that has been in effect up to the
promulgation of this Constitution is hereby repealed.

Done, signed, and sealed in the Federal Legislative Palace, in Caracas, on
the twenty-third day of January of nineteen hundred and sixty-one. 151st
year of Independence and 102nd year of the Federation.

TRANSITORY PROVISIONS

THE CONGRESS

OF THE REPUBLIC OF VENEZUELA

In conformity with the provisions of Article 251 of the Constitution and
having called for the vote of the Legislative Assemblies of the States of
Anzoategui, Apure, Aragua, Barinas, Bolivar, Carabobo, Cojedes, Falcon,
Guarico, Lara, Merida, Miranda, Monagas, Nueva Esparta, Portuguesa, Sucre,
Tachira, Trujillo, Yaracuy, and Zulia, and having seen the favorable result
of the voting, decrees the following

TRANSITORY PROVISIONS
OF THE CONSTITUTION

First. Until the laws provided for in Chapter IV of Title I of the
Constitution are enacted, the present municipal system and organization of
the Republic remains in force.

Second. Foreigners included in numerals 2 and 3 of Article 37 who become
twenty-five years of age within one year following the date on which this
Constitution takes effect may make the statement of desire within that
period.

Third. Until a law establishes the special facilities to which article 36 of
the Constitution refers, the acquisition of Venezuelan nationality by those
who by birth have the nationality of Spain or of a Latin American State
shall continue to be governed by the legal provisions row in effect.

Fourth. Until a law establishes the appropriate substantive and procedural
rules, the loss of nationality through revocation of naturalization shall be
subject to current provisions of law, but an interested party may appeal the
administrative decision to the Supreme Court of Justice within a period of
six months following the date of publication of the revocation in the
Official Gazette.

Fifth. The protection of personal liberty, until a special law is enacted to
govern it in conformity with the provisions of article 49 of the
Constitution, shall be done in accordance with the following rules:

Any person who becomes subject to deprivation or restriction of his liberty,
in violation of constitutional guarantees, has the right to ask the Judge of
First Instance in Criminal Matters who has jurisdiction at the place where
the action which has given rise to the request was taken or where the
aggrieved person is to be found, to issue a writ of habeas corpus.

When the request, which may be made by any person, is received, the Judge
shall immediately order the official in whose custody the aggrieved person
is held to report within twenty-hours hours as to the grounds for
deprivation or restriction of liberty, and shall initiate a summary
investigation.

The Judge shall decide, within a period of not more than ninety- six hours
after the request was submitted, on the immediate release of the aggrieved
or the cessation of the restrictions imposed, if he finds that the legal
formalities for deprivation or restriction of liberty were not met. The
judge may subject this decision to the granting of bail or prohibition of
departure from the country by the aggrieved person, for a period of not more
than thirty days, if he considers this necessary.

The decision issued by the Judge of First Instance shall be referred to the
Superior Court, to which the case must be sent on the same or the following
day. This referral shall not prevent the immediate execution of the
decision. The Superior Court shall render its decision within seventy-two
hours following the date of receipt of the case.

Sixth. Until ordinary legislation fixes the time limits and periods to which
the last paragraph of numeral 1 of article 60 of the Constitution refers,
police authorities who have employed preventive detention measures must
place the accused together with the action that has been taken, at the
disposition of the appropriate Court within a time limit of not more than
eight days, for purposes of summary proceedings. The examining Court must
decide, with respect to the detention, within a time limit of ninety-six
hours, except in serious and complex cases which require a longer time,
which in no case shall exceed eight days. Only police authorities who by law
are auxiliary officials of the Administration of Justice are empowered to
take the measures provided for in article 60 of the Constitution.

Seventh. The measures of banishment from the country adopted between January
23, 1958, and July 31, 1960, shall remain in effect until they are revoked
by the Executive Power or by decision of the Chambers in joint session, but
they may not be prolonged beyond the present constitutional term.

Persons subjected to deprivation or restriction of liberty for reasons of
public order must be set free or submitted to the Courts of the Republic
within a period of two months following the proclamation of the
Constitution.

Eighth. The provisions of the sole paragraph of article 148 of the
Constitution are declared applicable to the present President of the
Republic as soon as his term has expired and, as soon as this Provision
takes effect, to the citizen who constitutionally occupied the Presidency of
the Republic for the 1936-1941 term and to the citizen who was elected
President of the Republic by popular vote for the constitutional term which
began in 1948.

Ninth. Senators and Deputies who an the date of promulgation of the
Constitution are holding public offices not excepted in articles 123 and 141
of the Constitution may rejoin their respective Chambers during the course
of the next regular session.

Tenth. Until the law provides therefore, persons who have failed to comply
with the provisions of article 160 of the Constitution shall be subject to
the penalty provided in article 239 of the Penal Code .

If an official of the public administration or of an autonomous institute is
concerned, he shall also be removed from office.

Eleventh. Bills relating to international treaties and conventions and those
concerning the system of taxation which on the date of promulgation of this
Constitution are under consideration in the Chambers may continue to be
discussed even if the former were initiated in the Chamber of Deputies and
the latter in the Senate.

Twelfth. The Chambers, if are meeting on the date of promulgation of the
Constitution, or in subsequent regular or special session, shall, before
recessing, conduct the election in joint session of the Delegated Committee
provided for in article 175. Before conducting the election, the Chambers in
joint session shall enact the pertinent regulations.

Thirteenth. Whenever the law requires the authorization, approval, or
sanction of the National Congress for the validity of an act, the decision
shall be taken by the Chambers in joint session, unless from the very nature
of the act it appears that the procedure for the enactment of laws should be
followed.

Fourteenth. Judges shall continue to hold office for the term established in
the legislation in force.

However, the Judicial Council, without prejudice to its other legal powers,
may, within the year following the promulgation of the Constitution, remove,
following summary investigation, those who have been guilty of any serious
act affecting the dignity or decorum of the judiciary or who have shown
manifest incapacity or deficiency in carrying out their functions.

The designation of a new judge and his alternates shall be made according to
law.

Fifteenth. The present sitting Members of the Federal Courts and the Court
of Cassation shall comprise the Supreme Court of Justice for the remainder
of the present constitutional term. The Court shall be installed within
thirty days after the Constitution takes effect, and shall elect a President
and two Vice Presidents from among its members.

Until the Organic Law of the Supreme Court of Justice is enacted, the
following provisions shall govern: The Court shall function in three
autonomous Divisions, known as the Political- Administrative Division, the
Division of Civil, Commercial, and Labor Cassation, and the Division of
Penal Cassation. The first of these Divisions shall consist of the sitting
Members of the present Federal Court and shall have the powers conferred on
that body by current legislation, and those established by numerals 2 and 4
to 9 of article 215 of the Constitution; the other two Divisions shall be
composed of the sitting Members of the respective Divisions of the present
Court of Cassation and shall have the powers conferred on those bodies by
current law. The full Court shall have powers 1 and 3 of article 215 of the
Constitution.

The present alternates of the Federal Court shall fill absolute vacancies of
Magistrates of the Political-Administrative Division; and those of the Court
of Cassation, such vacancies of the Magistrates of the Cassation Divisions.

The installation of the Supreme Court of Justice shall be governed, insofar
as they are applicable, by the provisions of the Organic law of the Court of
Cassation. Action taken by the full Court and by the
Political-Administrative Division shall be governed, insofar as it is
applicable, by the Organic Law of the Federal Court, and that of the
Cassation Divisions, by the Organic Law of the Court of Cassation.

When the Magistrates are elected for the next constitutional term, the
Chambers shall indicate those who are to serve nine, six, and three years
respectively, for the purposes of article 214 of the Constitution.

The full Court shall settle any questions that may arise concerning the
application of the system called for in this provision, and shall also
settle those that may arise concerning the powers of the Prosecutor General
of the Republic and of the Attorney General of the Republic.

Sixteenth. The citizen elected to the post of Attorney of the Nation for the
present constitutional term shall continue to perform, with the title
Prosecutor General of the Republic, the functions conferred on the Public
Ministry by the Constitution until the end of that term. He shall likewise
perform the functions conferred by the Constitution on the Office of the
Attorney General of the Republic until the President of the Republic makes
the appointment provided for in article 201 of the Constitution. In the
latter case, both officials shall perform the functions respectively
conferred on them by the Constitution, in accordance with the laws in force,
insofar as they are applicable according to the individual nature of each
institution, until the appropriate organic laws are promulgated .

Seventeenth. The citizen elected to the post of Comptroller of the Nation
for the present constitutional term shall continue to perform, with the
title Comptroller General of the Republic, the functions conferred by the
Constitution on the Office of the Comptroller General of the Republic.

Until an organic law provides therefor, the citizen elected to the post of
Assistant Comptroller of the Nation for the present constitutional term
shall continue to perform, with the title Assistant Comptroller of the
Republic, the functions assigned to him by law. Temporary or occasional
absences of the Assistant Comptroller shall be filled by an official from
the Office of the Comptroller named for the purpose by the Comptroller
General of the Republic. In case of absolute vacancy, the Chambers in joint
session or the Delegated Committee shall elect a person to replace him.

Eighteenth. Until an organic law fixes the time for the presentation of the
draft Budget Law, it shall be presented annually within the first fifteen
days of the regular sessions of the Chamber.

Nineteenth. The next constitutional term shall commence on March 2, 1964. On
that date the Chambers shall be installed. The inauguration of the President
of the Republic shall be conducted according to article 186 of the
Constitution. The election of the Magistrates of the Supreme Court of
Justice shall be held within the first thirty days after the beginning of
the constitutional term.

The terms of the present deputies to the Legislative Assemblies and members
of the Municipal Councils shall end on January 1, 1964, unless a law
provides for their renewal at an earlier date.

Twentieth. The property referred to in Decree No. 28 of February 6, 1958, of
the Governing Junta reverts to the national patrimony .

This measure includes all property of the person to whom the Decree
mentioned refers and that unlawfully held by persons who have been declared
intermediaries, in accordance with that Decree, before the promulgation of
the Constitution.

The Attorney General of the Republic shall take the measures necessary for
carrying out this provision, and the inventories he prepares shall serve as
title of ownership by the State of such property, for all legal purposes.

Twenty-first. There shall also revert to the national patrimony, to the
amount determined by the Investigating Committee provided for in the law
against unlawful Enrichment by Public Officials or Employees, the property
belonging to persons summoned before it for investigation up to the date of
promulgation of the Constitution and by reason of acts or occurrences prior
to January 23, 1958.

In its decision, which shall have the character of a permanent final
judgment, the Investigating Committee shall determine what property must
revert to the national patrimony in accordance with this provision and what
amounts shall remain owing to the National Exchequer from those who have
unlawfully enriched themselves to an amount greater than the value of the
property restored to the national patrimony. Interested parties may appear
before the Supreme Court of Justice, in the Political-Administrative
Division, within thirty consecutive days after publication of the decision,
to demonstrate the partial or complete lawfulness of their enrichment. The
Court shall examine and decide on the appeal in accordance with the
procedure established in article 25 of the Organic Law of the Federal Court.

The Committee shall decide the cases currently being investigated in
accordance with this provision within a period of three months counting from
the date on which the Constitution takes effect. This period may be
extended, in each case, by the Supreme Court of Justice, in its
Political-Administrative Division, upon grounded application by the
Investigating Committee.

The Attorney General of the Republic may also appeal to the Supreme Court of
Justice whenever he considers that a decision of the Investigating Committee
is contrary to the interests of the Republic .

Whenever by virtue of a decision of the Investigating Committee the
suspension of all or any of the preventive measures taken on property of a
person under investigation is in order, this suspension may not be carried
out except in the event that the Attorney General of the Republic has not
appealed to the Supreme Court of Justice within the period provided for in
this provision.

If the Supreme Court of Justice decides that there has been no unlawful
enrichment or that its amount is less than that estimated by the
Investigating Committee, it shall fix the amount to be returned to the
appellant to the extent that he was not unlawfully enriched and shall so
inform the National Executive in order that it may determine the manner and
time of payment, in accordance with article 16 of the Organic Law of the
National Finances. However, the Court may order that such payment be made,
wholly or in part, from property which belonged to the person investigated,
provided that its restitution is not contrary to the public or social
interest.

In each case the Committee shall also decide on the claims of third parties
asserting rights in rem to property covered by a decision and may order the
cumulation of actions pending in the Courts if it deems this advisable. Such
third parties may also appeal within thirty consecutive days to the Supreme
Court of Justice, in its Political-Administrative Division, to validate
their rights, and that body shall examine the claims pursuant to the article
25 cited above. If the claims of a third party are ruled in order, the
National Executive may provide for their payment in the manner and time it
shall specify or may authorize the delivery or auction of the property
claimed, without prejudice to the terms of this provision. The Committee may
declare simulated any transfers of property made by investigated persons
after December 1, 1957.

Property which was acquired by investigated persons before taking the
offices they held or before committing the acts which the measures are based
may be included in the decision of the Investigating Committee only if the
other property is not sufficient to cover the amount of the unlawful
enrichment, except as established in this provision with respect to property
of public or social interest.

The circumstance that judicial action has been taken against some of the
persons included under this provision shall not prevent its application.
Suits initiated in application of the provisions of the Law against Unlawful
Enrichment of Public Official or employees, against persons included under
the present transitory provision, shall be suspended and the cases shall be
transmitted to the Investigating Committee. The application of this
provision does not prevent the taking of criminal action for which there may
be grounds according to law.

For purposes of carrying out the measures regulated herein, the rule
contained in article 44 of the Constitution shall not apply, and both the
Investigating Committee and the Supreme Court shall be subject only to the
procedural provisions indicated here.

Twenty-second. Article 44 and the last part of article 42 of the Law against
the Unlawful Enrichment of Public Officials and Employees shall be
applicable to the persons to whom the eighteenth provision refers and to
those who have been unlawfully enriched according to decisions of the
Investigating Committee or the Supreme Court of Justice.

Twenty-third. The existing juridical system shall remain in effect unless it
is amended or repealed by the competent organs of the Public Power, or is
repealed expressly or by implication by the Constitution.

Done, signed, and sealed in the Federal Legislative Palace, in Caracas, on
the twenty-third day of January of nineteen hundred sixty-one. -151st year
of Independence and 102nd War of the Federation.

The President,
(L.S. ) Raul Leoni

The Vice-president,
(L.S.) Rafael Caldera
Oval Room of the Federal Palace, in Caracas, on the twenty-third day of
January of nineteen hundred and sixty-one. 151 year of the Independence and
102nd year of the Federation.

Be it carried out and enforced.

The President of the Republic,
(L.S.) Romulo Betancourt
THE CONGRESS
OF THE REPUBLIC OF VENEZUELA

Having requested the vote of the Legislative Assemblies of the States:
Anzoategui, Apure, Aragua, Barinas, Bolivar, Carabobo, Cojedes, Falcon,
Guarico, Lara, Merida, Miranda, Monagas, Nueva Esparta, Portuguesa, Sucre,
Tachira, Trujillo, Yaracuy, and Zulia, and having seen the favorable results
of the voting, decrees the following

AMENDMENT 1 OF THE CONSITUTION

Article 1 An amendment is hereby introduced in the Constitution, which shall
bear the number 1 and be worded as follows:

"No person who has been found guilty by the Ordinary Courts and given a
final sentence of confinement or imprisonment for a period of over three
years for crimes committed in the exercise of public office or as a
consequence of said person's public functions, may be elected President of
the Republic, Senator or Deputy to the Congress, or Magistrate of the
Supreme Court of Justice.

As agreed by the competent organisms, the only recourse shall be appealed
before the Supreme Court of Justice, en banc, brought by any qualified
voter. The Court shall make its decision within the ten days following
receipt of the request. There shall be only one hearing on the appeal."

Article 2. The text of the Constitution, followed by the approved Amendment,
shall be printed in its entirety and a reference to the number and date of
this amendment shall appear at the end of articles 149, 152, 182, and 213 in
the body of the text of the Constitution.

Done, signed, and sealed at the Federal Legislative Palace, in Caracas, on
the ninth day of May of nineteen hundred sixty-three. 164rd year of
Independence and 115th year of the Federation.

THE CONGRESS
OF THE REPUBLIC OF VENEZUELA

Having requested the vote of the Legislative Assemblies of the States:
Anzoategui, Apure, Aragua, Barinas, Bolivar, Carabobo, Cojedes, Falcon,
Guarico, Lara, Merida, Miranda, Monagas, Nueva Esparta, Portuguesa, Sucre,
Tachira, Trujillo, Yaracuy, and Zulia, and having seen the favorable results
of the voting, decrees the following

AMENDMENT 2 OF THE CONSTITUTION

Article 1. For elections of Members of Municipal Councils, a special
electoral system may be adopted that is different from that governing
elections of Senators, Deputies, and Members of the Legislative Assemblies.

For elections of the latter, a special system may also be decided upon that
is similar to or different from that stipulated for elections of municipal
counselors.

Article 2. Retirement and pension benefits shall be regulated by an Organic
Law to which all public officials and employees in the service of the
central or decentralized administration of the Republic, the States, or the
Municipalities shall be subject. More than one retirement or pension benefit
may be received only in cases expressly stipulated in that Law.

Article 3. In the first year of each constitutional term, Regular Sessions
of the Chambers shall begin, without the need for prior convocation, on
January 23 or the earliest possible date thereafter .

Article 4. The Chambers in joint session shall designate in each
constitutional term a legislative committee composed of twenty-three (23)
members, who with their respective alternates shall be elected in such a
manner as to reflect as far as possible the political composition of the
Congress of the Republic. The Rules of Procedure shall establish the
procedures and other requirements that shall govern the discussion of bills.

Article 5. The Chambers in joint session, at a meeting expressly convoked
for that purpose at least twenty-four (24) hours in advance, may authorize
the Legislative Committee to discuss and approve individually determined
bills, when agreed to by two thirds of the members present. Once each bill
has been approved by the Legislative Committee, the Committee shall send it
to the President of the Congress, who shall order the text distributed among
the members of both Chambers and shall convoke them to a joint session,
after fifteen (15) days have passed since it was received.

The Chambers, meeting in joint session, in accordance with the Notice of
Convocation, shall approve or reject any text submitted to them, and may
introduce any amendments they deem desirable. Once a Bill has been approved,
with or without amendments, the President shall declare it passed, and the
subsequent procedures stipulated for the formation of Laws shall be carried
out.

Article 6. The Chambers may meet and function with whatever number of their
members the Rules of Procedure may determine, but in no case fewer than one
third of their members. To take a vote, an absolute majority of the Members
of the Chambers must be present.

Article 7. During the first year of each constitutional term, the National
Executive shall present the general outlines of the plan for the social and
economic development of the country to the Chambers meeting in joint session
for approval. Such guidelines shall comply with the requirements stipulated
in the pertinent Organic Law.

Article 8. Transitory provisions. In the 1979-1984 constitutional term, the
length of the term of the President of the Republic and of the Senators and
Deputies shall be shortened by the number of days resulting from the
application of article 3. Likewise, for the purposes set forth in article
185 of the Constitution, the period shall be reduced by the number of days
resulting from the application of the above mentioned provision.

Article 9. Let the Constitution followed by the approved amendment be
printed in its entirety and let footnotes to articles 113, 122, 136, 139,
154, 156, 166, 167, 185, 227 and 231 of the text of the Constitution show
the number and date of this amendment. In addition, let the transitory
provisions of the Constitution that have not yet been implemented and
article 8 of this amendment be published.

Done, signed, and sealed at the Federal Legislative Palace in Caracas on the
eighteenth day of March of nineteen hundred eighty-three. 172nd year of
Independence and 124th year of the Federation.



Regards,

--

*Art

Minotaur
July 5th 03, 05:33 PM
The United States of Whatever and Freedom in the same sentance? PLEASE
You have a FAULSE sence of FREEDOM! Try going to Europe, many lightyears
advanced in areas concerning FREEDOM for the INDIVIDUAL.
You talking about COMPANY FREEDOM? I think so... Can't smoke marijuanna?
Can't do this or that?
All because Companys and Religious fanatics rule your lives, how sad...

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 05:34 PM
"Daemon Rose" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> > All of our buildings are still standing... Yours?
>
> Are you insinuating the Canadians were responsible for that, ****wit?
>
> As your comment indicates, Canadians aren't smart enough to pull something
> like that off. Even if they were though, America would have the Canadian
> military (Canada does have a military, right?...LOL) on it's knees in
about
> two hours, so keep laughing. Sounds like you've chuckled yourself right
> into a stupor.
>
> Snap out of it.

How quickly people forget unpleasant history... Minor things, like
Washington DC occupied and the capitol burning, for example.

--
*Art

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 05:41 PM
"Steve Trussing" > wrote in message
...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> So, where was the first computer and first personal computer invented,
> and where did the Internet originate?
>
> The United States of America.

The first computer was German. The second, third and fourth were British.
The *fifth* (or possibly sixth, if you count the Soviet/Czech attempt) was
American.

If you mean ARPANET, yes, that originated in the US. However, it had become
international (the UK and Norway connected to ARPANET in 1973) and
co-developed by non-Americans long before it became Internet.

Regards,
--
*Art

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 05:46 PM
"SST" > wrote in message
t...
> Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in history,

Not according to the UN. I believe it's number 5 or 6 on the list.

--
*Art

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 05:49 PM
"Wolfram Nickl" > wrote in message
...
> Hi! Stupid Question from an Austrian:
>
> What has all this to do with overclocking??

It's highly related. I recommend that many of the posters here hook up a
heatsink to their head, as there seems to be some overheating going on.
Water-cooling might be a good idea, but be careful with leaks or it might
dilute the alcohol. :-)

Regards,
--
*Art

Dave
July 5th 03, 06:29 PM
"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave" > wrote in message
> t...

snip

>
> I'm not French, but now you make me wonder -- where on Earth do you live
> where being *elitist* is a bad thing? Does your culture praise mediocrity
> as the ideal?

I think you may be a little semantically confused. This might help clarify
things...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elitist&db=*

Note the difference between that and:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=elite&db=*

There may be a fine line between the two at times, but there is clearly a
difference in their meanings, both express and implied, wouldn't you say?

Arthur Hagen
July 5th 03, 06:36 PM
"Proconsul" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> One has to wonder why 95% of all Canadians live within a hundred miles of
> the U.S. border - don't want to get too far from all the services to be
> found "down here".....:)

That argument doesn't hold water, cause if that was the case, there would be
a high concentration of Canadians along the Alaskan border too.

The main reason is simply the weather, climate and geographical features,
like having easily accessible ports that don't freeze over during winter,
and enough areable land.

Think,
--
*Art

chrismm
July 5th 03, 06:44 PM
Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and socially. The
trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't understand.
They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier is always
better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty, and
noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad handling.
Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and more
reliable.
America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical. Star trek
is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth especially)
basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has more claim
to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal laws but the
public know how to follow them without killing each other or themselves.
"Z28" > wrote in message
.. .
> Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save you! "It
> takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
>
> "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that why your the
> > largest nation of fatasses?
> >
> > And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the world - the
> US
> > takes 2nd place.
> >
> >
> > in article , SST at
> > wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
> >
> > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in
history,
> I
> > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking cold
beer
> and
> > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite broadcast
> in
> > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful life
is.
> > >
> > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the
Middle
> > > East. We should bring them back home.
> > >
> > > "aj" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
> > >>
> > >> Where ?????
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

Dave
July 5th 03, 07:11 PM
"Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
...
> Yeah - alright - but i'll kick your ass with my Sun Sparc 20 :D

<Dark Helmet>: "You have the ring, and I see your Schwartz is as big as
mine!"

Rut-roh! Guess my ol' Trash 80 just doesn't measure up! It won't even boot
anymore :-(


> in article , bp at
> wrote on 7/5/03 3:21 pm:
>
> > On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 06:22:03 +0200, Kai Robinson
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> Bring it on Dirtbag ;)
> >>
> >> Shall we use the Force, or would that be unfair? :D
> >>
> > You're going to need all the help you can it so you can use it. I'll
> > just bring my old gForce video card. Fair enough ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> in article , bp at
> >> wrote on 7/5/03 3:56 am:
> >>
> >>> On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 19:42:51 +0200, Kai Robinson
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I think not. Oh and i'm far from little as well.
> >>>> 6foot4 with a ****ing great temper.
> >>>
> >>> Isn't the internet great ! You can be anything you want.
> >>> BTW I'm 7'2" 290 Lbs of pure muscle . You feel'en lucky puck ? Well
> >>> are you? God I hate little people ;)
> >
>

Dave
July 5th 03, 07:56 PM
"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Daemon Rose" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > > And if it weren't for the French, the American colonies would of had a
> > > much slimmer chance of successfully gaining independence from England.
> >
> > And I believe America has already returned the favor during World Wars I
&
> > II.
>
> The big difference being that the US only helped the European allies in
WWII
> under the "lend and lease" agreement, which basically stated that the
> European countries would lend to US any and all aid and facilities they
> might need for the war effort, and lease from the US any equipment and
> forces aiding the war effort. The US didn't so much help as sell their
> services for a profit. In the year 2003, the Europeans are *still* paying
> for the extra bullets and mercenaries used during WWII.

Two things: 1) there were an awful lot of those "extra" bullets and
"mercenaries" used TO PRESERVE YOUR RIGHT AND FREEDOM TO SPEW YOUR JAUNDICED
ANTIAMERICAN CACK, and 2) do you honestly think Europe was in a position to
refuse? Without US laying down OUR LIVES for YOUR COUNTRY (two of my
grandfathers served overseas in WWII...yes I had four, God rest their
souls), you'd be goose-stepping your way to work in the morning; Germany
would have had the nuke first; this world would be a completely different
place and not for the better; perhaps you should not forget it in your haste
to bash America. "Eins, zwei, drei, vier". Then again, I seem to remember
you spouting the same tired crap last year around this time and me saying
much the same to you in return...then again, what else can one expect from a
typical American-bashing *MATROX USER* at that? ;-) How's your Parfeelmynuts
hanging?

I'll quote someone else: "Look at the big brain on Arthur!"

Was this you on April 4 of this year? Or are you going to have a Ronald
Reagan moment about it? Maybe the FBI should be aware of your sentiments?

>A point here is that history proves terrorism to be a viable option to get
>your rights, when there's no organised military to back you, and facing
>overwhelming odds. It may be atrocious, but when desperate enough, people
>will do horrible things, and sometimes it is effective. After the fact,
and
>if they won their cause, the world will usually call them "freedom
fighters"
>and not terrorists. And then we forget.
>
>--
>*Art

You could always strap a bomb to yourself and walk to your local American
consulate. I'm sure nobody'd miss ya...;-PpPpPp

Proconsul
July 5th 03, 07:58 PM
"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Proconsul" > wrote in message
| news:[email protected]
| > One has to wonder why 95% of all Canadians live within a hundred miles
of
| > the U.S. border - don't want to get too far from all the services to be
| > found "down here".....:)
|
| That argument doesn't hold water, cause if that was the case, there would
be
| a high concentration of Canadians along the Alaskan border too.

It holds water, you can be sure. Check out the cancer treatment centers in
Seattle for just one example. There are many others. The Alaskan border is a
wilderness - and the route to largesse ain't there.....! If there were
centers like Seattle, Detroit, Chicago, etc., in Alaska, you can be sure the
Canadians would cross the border in droves there too.....not only to access
the services unavailable to them in Canada, but to work as well. I know a
number of Canadians who work here - and who have brought parents down here
to access health care services denied them in the socialist paradise to the
North.....!

| The main reason is simply the weather, climate and geographical features,
| like having easily accessible ports that don't freeze over during winter,
| and enough areable land.

Nonsense - a very great portion of Canada is arable and perfectly "livable",
and they do have deep water ports that don't freeze over during winter, but
socialist paradises do have their limitations.....

| Think,

Good advice - I suggest you take it....:)

PC

Proconsul
July 5th 03, 07:59 PM
Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this extraordinary
thesis.....:)

PC

"chrismm" > wrote in message
...
| Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and socially. The
| trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't understand.
| They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier is
always
| better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty, and
| noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad handling.
| Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and more
| reliable.
| America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical. Star trek
| is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
especially)
| basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
| America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has more
claim
| to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal laws but
the
| public know how to follow them without killing each other or themselves.
| "Z28" > wrote in message
| .. .
| > Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save you! "It
| > takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
| >
| > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > > Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that why your
the
| > > largest nation of fatasses?
| > >
| > > And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the world -
the
| > US
| > > takes 2nd place.
| > >
| > >
| > > in article , SST at
| > > wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
| > >
| > > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in
| history,
| > I
| > > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking cold
| beer
| > and
| > > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite
broadcast
| > in
| > > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful life
| is.
| > > >
| > > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the
| Middle
| > > > East. We should bring them back home.
| > > >
| > > > "aj" > wrote in message
| > > > ...
| > > >>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
| > > >>
| > > >> Where ?????
| > > >>
| > > >>
| > > >
| > > >
| > >
| >
| >
| >
|
|

JAD
July 5th 03, 08:20 PM
Whatever group your posting from: Arthur:

is not the forum yet you continue......Then your taking some 14year old
dropout's OPINION and Mumbling as the thoughts of an entire nation....WTF!!!
Should we assume YOU speak for your WHOLE country? As big as the audience is
on USENET it certainly doesn't make up the majority.

Life in ANY country can be difficult, its all relative. The US should
stay out of most of what it involves itself in. I hate the Bush oil
mongrels. They are the anti Christ. I would LOVE to close our borders at the
south,west, east and let the chips fall where they may. I think we should
join wholly and solely with Canada and adopt all the great things about both
and create the most influential country of 'North America' and take care of
ourselves. Ignore all pleas for help. Stop exporting/importing and do
without whatever it is we can't get outside of this country. Adopt all Earth
friendly technologies. Wouldn't it be great,...........Ideally and on paper.

Good thing SOME of us are well seated in reality,....get some gravity
boots....your floating

"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve Trussing" > wrote in message
> ...
> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
> > TheSingingCat > wrote:
> >
>
> > > I'd have great
> > > difficulty in believing that without US contributions to the
> > > computing world we would not have computers.
> >
> > Don't kid yourself:
> >
> > ** World's first operational, general-purpose, electronic computer:
> > ENIAC (Electrical Numerical Integrator And Calculator, U.S. Patent
> > #3,120,606), University of Pennsylvania, USA, 1946
>
> Of course, there wouldn't have been an ENIAC without the COLOSSUS mark I
and
> II, and Harvard Mark I that the British had built earlier. The ENIAC
wasn't
> the first US computer either -- the Bells Labs Model IV preceded it.
>
> The first computer, though, was the German Zuse from 1939 (using
mechanical
> relays).
>
> As usual, this is a case of the US taking credit for inventions where no
> credit is due, just like the Automobile, airplane, electric lights, space
> exploration and much else where they were good number 2's, but stole the
> credits.
>
> > ** First-ever high-level computer programming language: FORTRAN, USA,
> > 1954 (released in 1957)
>
> Of course, this is true if you conveniently forget about Plankalkul from
> 1945.
>
> > ** First-ever computer game: Spacewar, MIT, USA, 1962
>
> How horribly wrong. NIM was played on Univac in 1953.
>
> I'm *SICK AND TIRED* about ****ing American chauvinism and nationalism.
The
> US is NOT the best goddamn country in the world. It is *one* country in
the
> world, for better and for worse. Sure, it's great. NO, it's NOT greater.
> It's a country. It happens to be my country, but so frigging what? It's
> just a country full of people -- some who's bright and shining, and some
> who's pathetic morons.
>
> Regards,
> --
> *Art
>
>

Dave
July 5th 03, 08:47 PM
"Winston Churchill" > wrote in message
...
> Hear Bloody Hear----------I agree with you yugsdrawkcab...
>
> That idiot can read your posts but does NOT understand ...

Perhaps he should be called yugsdrawkcabssa? That'd be understandable...

(snip)

Nice onomatopoeia!

Dave
July 5th 03, 09:34 PM
"jhgd" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 15:34:03 -0700, "OldfartJC" > wrote:
>
> -I didn't realize you Canadians in Alberta hated us that much. My friends
> in
> -Edmonton always like to come to the U.S. to buy stuff at much cheaper
> prices
> -than they can in Canada.

Yep, even with the exchange rate still in favor of the American dollar,
stuff still costs more up there...

(barely comprehensible retort snipped)

If you're going to post an argument not in your native tongue, the least you
could do is learn it a bit better...

> Must be all your liberal laws that causes (with all the injustice taht
> fly-bly from the south, ( just like resolution from kyoto. To reduce the
> pollution.)-> where do you think thai **** goes to the north. You should
> show some respet to others.

Europe had just as much to do with the lack of resolution of the Kyoto
Protocols as we did. Either side wanted to blame the other and assign
lopsided accountabilities. Nobody was getting anywhere, so we walked away
from the table. And European press pinned it all on America, naturally. And
look at all the people who bought it. I suspect you are underinformed about
this one. Of course, it may very well be that NEITHER SIDE REALLY WANTED TO
RESOLVE THINGS AND BIG INDUSTRY WANTED TO PRESERVE THE STATUS QUO, and that,
my friend, is why things are the way they are...


more incomprehensible rhetoric snipped...

> in your country it must be. 50 box to pay a visite to the doctor or
> higher.
>

And in our country, $50 is usually pocket change...your point was?

neopolaris
July 5th 03, 10:23 PM
More like we have too many crybaby socialists here that's all. FOX is the
first network to tell it like it is. We will make this world a better place
or die trying. Any correlation to Hitler is retarded.

neopolaris
ex-grunt
E-3-1


"Winston Churchill" > wrote in message
...
> Looks like the americans are developing facist tendencies,quicker
> than any of our previous facists.It took from 1918- 1936 before the
> germans started to get REALLY hateful. Bush and the american media
> like Fox, has helped this happen in america in two years. All these
> "fear" speeches that he makes sound not unlike "Her Hitler" circa '38
>
> The facists lost last time.
> Winston
>
>
> On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 22:53:51 -0700, "OldfartJC" > wrote:
>
> >I think you are wrong about the asshole statement. If the world needed
an
> >enema I think it's placement would be somewhere in Europe.
> >
> >"Allan Laws" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Why would anyone celebrate the birth of the biggest pack of arseholes
on
> >the
> >> planet.
> >>
> >>
> >> SST > wrote in message
> >> t...
> >> > IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
> >> >
> >> > The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
> >> >
> >> > When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one
people
> >to
> >> > dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another,
and
> >> to
> >> > assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station
to
> >> > which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent
> >> respect
> >> > to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the
causes
> >> > which impel them to the separation.
> >> >
> >> > We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal,
> >> > that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights,
> >> that
> >> > among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to
> >> secure
> >> > these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their
just
> >> > powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of
> >> > Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the
> >> People
> >> > to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying
its
> >> > foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form,
as
> >> to
> >> > them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
> >> Prudence,
> >> > indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be
> >> changed
> >> > for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath
> >shewn,
> >> > that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable,
> >than
> >> > to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are
> >accustomed.
> >> > But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably
the
> >> > same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism,
it
> >> is
> >> > their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to
> >> provide
> >> > new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient
> >> sufferance
> >> > of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains
them
> >to
> >> > alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present
> >King
> >> of
> >> > Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all
> >> having
> >> > in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these
> >> States.
> >> > To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
> >> >
> >> > He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary
for
> >> the
> >> > public good.
> >> > He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing
> >> > importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent
should
> >be
> >> > obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend
to
> >> them.
> >> > He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large
> >districts
> >> > of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of
> >> Representation
> >> > in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to
> >tyrants
> >> > only.
> >> > He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual,
> >> uncomfortable,
> >> > and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole
> >> > purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
> >> > He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with
> >manly
> >> > firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
> >> > He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause
others
> >> to
> >> > be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of
Annihilation,
> >> have
> >> > returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State
remaining
> >in
> >> > the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without,
and
> >> > convulsions within.
> >> > He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for
that
> >> > purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners;
refusing
> >to
> >> > pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the
> >> conditions
> >> > of new Appropriations of Lands.
> >> > He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his
Assent
> >to
> >> > Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
> >> > He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of
their
> >> > offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
> >> > He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of
> >> > Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
> >> > He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the
> >> Consent
> >> > of our legislatures.
> >> > He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to
> >the
> >> > Civil power.
> >> > He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign
to
> >our
> >> > constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to
their
> >> > Acts of pretended Legislation:
> >> > For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
> >> > For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders
> >> which
> >> > they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
> >> > For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
> >> > For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
> >> > For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
> >> > For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
> >> > For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring
> >Province,
> >> > establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its
> >Boundaries
> >> > so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for
introducing
> >> the
> >> > same absolute rule into these Colonies:
> >> > For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and
> >> > altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
> >> > For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves
invested
> >> with
> >> > power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
> >> > He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his
Protection
> >> and
> >> > waging War against us.
> >> > He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and
> >> > destroyed the lives of our people.
> >> > He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries
to
> >> > compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun
with
> >> > circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most
> >> barbarous
> >> > ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
> >> > He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas
to
> >> > bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their
> >> friends
> >> > and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
> >> > He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured
to
> >> > bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian
Savages,
> >> > whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all
> >> ages,
> >> > sexes and conditions.
> >> >
> >> > In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in
> >the
> >> > most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by
> >> > repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act
> >> which
> >> > may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
> >> >
> >> > Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We
have
> >> > warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to
extend
> >> an
> >> > unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the
> >> > circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed
to
> >> > their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by
the
> >> ties
> >> > of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would
> >> inevitably
> >> > interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf
to
> >> the
> >> > voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce
in
> >> the
> >> > necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold
the
> >> > rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
> >> >
> >> > We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America,
in
> >> > General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the
world
> >> for
> >> > the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of
> >the
> >> > good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That
these
> >> > United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent
> >States;
> >> > that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and
> >that
> >> > all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain,
is
> >> and
> >> > ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent
States,
> >> they
> >> > have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances,
> >establish
> >> > Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent
States
> >may
> >> > of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm
> >reliance
> >> > on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each
other
> >> our
> >> > Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> >> --
> >> > ----
> >> >
> >> > The 56 signatures on the Declaration appear in the positions
indicated:
> >> >
> >> > Column 1
> >> > Georgia:
> >> > Button Gwinnett
> >> > Lyman Hall
> >> > George Walton
> >> >
> >> > Column 2
> >> > North Carolina:
> >> > William Hooper
> >> > Joseph Hewes
> >> > John Penn
> >> > South Carolina:
> >> > Edward Rutledge
> >> > Thomas Heyward, Jr.
> >> > Thomas Lynch, Jr.
> >> > Arthur Middleton
> >> >
> >> > Column 3
> >> > Massachusetts:
> >> > John Hancock
> >> > Maryland:
> >> > Samuel Chase
> >> > William Paca
> >> > Thomas Stone
> >> > Charles Carroll of Carrollton
> >> > Virginia:
> >> > George Wythe
> >> > Richard Henry Lee
> >> > Thomas Jefferson
> >> > Benjamin Harrison
> >> > Thomas Nelson, Jr.
> >> > Francis Lightfoot Lee
> >> > Carter Braxton
> >> >
> >> > Column 4
> >> > Pennsylvania:
> >> > Robert Morris
> >> > Benjamin Rush
> >> > Benjamin Franklin
> >> > John Morton
> >> > George Clymer
> >> > James Smith
> >> > George Taylor
> >> > James Wilson
> >> > George Ross
> >> > Delaware:
> >> > Caesar Rodney
> >> > George Read
> >> > Thomas McKean
> >> >
> >> > Column 5
> >> > New York:
> >> > William Floyd
> >> > Philip Livingston
> >> > Francis Lewis
> >> > Lewis Morris
> >> > New Jersey:
> >> > Richard Stockton
> >> > John Witherspoon
> >> > Francis Hopkinson
> >> > John Hart
> >> > Abraham Clark
> >> >
> >> > Column 6
> >> > New Hampshire:
> >> > Josiah Bartlett
> >> > William Whipple
> >> > Massachusetts:
> >> > Samuel Adams
> >> > John Adams
> >> > Robert Treat Paine
> >> > Elbridge Gerry
> >> > Rhode Island:
> >> > Stephen Hopkins
> >> > William Ellery
> >> > Connecticut:
> >> > Roger Sherman
> >> > Samuel Huntington
> >> > William Williams
> >> > Oliver Wolcott
> >> > New Hampshire:
> >> > Matthew Thornton
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>

neopolaris
July 5th 03, 10:27 PM
Maybe is was well meaning. Probably not though. The poster should have
expected backlash. Start dogging MY country...well prepare for more
backlash twerp. I served my country. Can you say the same? hmmm? Speak
up!

neopolaris
ex-grunt
E-3-1


"Anybody®" > wrote in message
e.rogers.com...
> Sure as hell doesn't take long for a well meaning post to get wrecked by
> idiots like Daemon Rose & neopolaris, not to mention SST, the originator,
> even if it is wayyyyy off-topic.........
>

Anybody®
July 5th 03, 10:44 PM
yup
"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message ...
> Maybe is was well meaning. Probably not though. The poster should have
> expected backlash. Start dogging MY country...well prepare for more
> backlash twerp. I served my country. Can you say the same? hmmm? Speak
> up!
>
> neopolaris
> ex-grunt
> E-3-1
>
>
> "Anybody®" > wrote in message
> e.rogers.com...
> > Sure as hell doesn't take long for a well meaning post to get wrecked
by
> > idiots like Daemon Rose & neopolaris, not to mention SST, the
originator,
> > even if it is wayyyyy off-topic.........
> >
>
>

Martin
July 5th 03, 10:46 PM
SST wrote:
> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
>
> The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

Try raising your vcore a bit at a time to see if you can get your fsb
up. Relaxing the memory timings might help too.

I hope you had a great 4th July and I bear you no ill will, but you
shouldn't post such stuff in here.

Regards

Martin

JAD
July 5th 03, 11:06 PM
America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical. Star trek
> is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
especially)
> basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?

Oboy, another sociology lesson to be gleaned from Star Trek!
FOMFC,ROTF,LMAO! Where DO these people com from?


Holy CRAp!!>>>>>>>>> my sides hurt That was the funniest damn thing I have
read in a VERY long time, AFA rants go......OMG...gotta get the wife to read
that......if ignorance is bliss....... what sort of education has chris
advanced to...I'd find out what school, .........and sue the hell out of
them...


"Dave" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "chrismm" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and socially.
>
> Nope. Actually, they mostly improve upon designs largely given to them by
> American scientists and researchers. Innovation is not exactly one of
> Japan's strong suits, neither is consumer protection...or fairness in
trade
> practices. As for socially...what's this about the Aum Shinri Kyo cult,
and
> the rise of imperialism? Any comments?
>
> On the flip side,
> 1) their production lines are far more efficient and better structured and
> managed
> 2) their coping with overcrowding is far in excess of what Americans could
> tolerate (dunno if that's really a good thing...)
> 3) They listened to Ed Deming
>
> There are more examples on either side of the coin. These are but a few
for
> brevity's sake (not exactly what I'm known for, but hey, I'm trying...)
>
> The
> > trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't understand.
>
> What a ridiculous bunch of unsupported generalizations. That much is
> painfully apparent...Nobody can completely accept what they don't
> understand, and if they do, they they've only themselves to blame for
their
> own apathy. But this is hardly an exclusive to our culture, now is it?
>
> > They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier is
> always
> > better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty, and
> > noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad handling.
>
> Such as??? For every American car you list as example I will retort with
the
> Renault Appliance. So there ;-) And I just simply flip over the Suzuki
> Samurai...I'd just love for you to start on cars. I must warn you in
advance
> (about 12° BTDC) that you're a little out of your depth. I was an ASE
> certified master tech (my certs expired last year). As for noisy...hmm,
> what's with all the riceboys and the megaphone tips on their Mitsubishis?
> They sound like angry bumblebees. Care to touch this one?
>
> > Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and more
> > reliable.
>
> Nope. Another series of unsubstantiated generalizations. Especially now
that
> the Big Three are all in bed with Mitsubishi, Daewoo, Toyota, Isuzu, etc.
> and they're being built right here in America. Hey, I usually drive a
beater
> Honda. My next car may very well be a Subaru WRX. But I also own a
Silverado
> and a Vette...as for reliability, that's only as good as the owner and the
> mechanic, unless you own something...like the Renault Appliance for
> example...And why for the life of me are Harleys so highly prized in the
> Japanese collector market? Can you answer this one?
>
> Japanese cars are SMARTER??? Ah, maybe the ol' faithful Accord will
someday
> beat me at chess? I think you've just fallen victim to the "Stupid
Inanimate
> Object" existential fallacy...tell me, do you kick things when they don't
> work properly (Theory of Percussive Maintenance)? Tell the truth...
>
> > America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical. Star
trek
> > is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
> especially)
> > basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
>
> Oboy, another sociology lesson to be gleaned from Star Trek!
> FOMFC,ROTF,LMAO! Where DO these people com from?
>
> > America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has more
> claim
> > to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal laws but
> the
> > public know how to follow them without killing each other or themselves.
>
> That why there's so much kiddie pr0n originating from there?
>
> Debunking effectively over...
>
>
>

Frode
July 5th 03, 11:41 PM
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Proconsul wrote:
> The fact that Lexus enjoys a good reputation doesn't segue to
> "technological superiority" for Japan....

The other poster made a specific point when it came to cars. So, yes, in
this case it does. It has nothing to do with reputation, it's a statistical
fact. They're more reliable.

> The most ubiquitous Toyota is the Camry - all of which are manufactured
> in Lordsburg, Ohio.....:)

That's not very relevant. There's Toyota factories all over the world. That
people of all nationalities can put together the car according to the
specifications and technology developed in Japan doesn't make it not be a
japanese car anymore. Nor does it make american cars more reliable than
japanese ones.

> As I said, you cannot support one word of your novel thesis in re Japan's
> "superiority"....!

I didn't say any such thing. Learn to separate posters and read quotes
properly. I'm only answering your bold statement that nothing the other
poster said could be confirmed. You're wrong, he made a point of cars,
which is verifyable.

> Japan is certainly an advanced, industrialized country
> BUT the inventions, technology base, etc., is mostly to be found in the
> USA.....!

In your own words: "Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this
extraordinary thesis.....:)"

Just because you believe americans invented everything that runs on power
doesn't make it so.


- --
Frode

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Frode
July 5th 03, 11:57 PM
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Dave wrote:
>> Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and socially.
> Nope. Actually, they mostly improve upon designs largely given to them by
> American scientists and researchers.

Those wouldn't be the same ones that moved to america from all over the
world, would they?

If you have any empirical data to back that claim up links would be
appreciated btw.

> Innovation is not exactly one of
> Japan's strong suits, neither is consumer protection...

That seems a bit like throwing rocks in a glass house. I saw the other day
that people were talking about buying extended warranties to cover
malfunctions beyond 90 days. Is 90 days all american consumer protection
laws demand a product to last before flipping the consumer the proverbial
bird?

> or fairness in trade practices.

Yes, I've heard they're horrible. They seem to treasure a promise while a
contract is a formality apparently. I heard an account of a western
businessman that went to Japan to do business, and after days doing all
sorts of things with the japanese companion he'd still not managed to get
more than a sentence about the contract squeezed into a conversation. The
jap was more interested in getting to know him and once he decided he was
trustworthy the deal was done before any contract had hit the table.

In the US business is so fair companies routinely insure their employees
against lawsuits.


- --
Frode

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chrismm
July 6th 03, 12:08 AM
Really ? Put it this way many things are invented in the US that is true,
however if you go to the patent office and look you will see that the people
who actually invented the things were in fact NOT american but people from
foreign countries who came to the US because thats where the money is. If
america had no gold or oil it would not be the force it is.
As it is its a wonderful country that is wasted on the people who invaded
it, people who were rejects from other countries or people who were force to
live there by those said reject people.
"Proconsul" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this extraordinary
> thesis.....:)
>
> PC
>
> "chrismm" > wrote in message
> ...
> | Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and socially.
The
> | trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't understand.
> | They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier is
> always
> | better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty, and
> | noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad handling.
> | Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and more
> | reliable.
> | America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical. Star
trek
> | is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
> especially)
> | basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
> | America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has more
> claim
> | to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal laws but
> the
> | public know how to follow them without killing each other or themselves.
> | "Z28" > wrote in message
> | .. .
> | > Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save you!
"It
> | > takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
> | >
> | > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> | > ...
> | > > Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that why your
> the
> | > > largest nation of fatasses?
> | > >
> | > > And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the world -
> the
> | > US
> | > > takes 2nd place.
> | > >
> | > >
> | > > in article , SST at
> | > > wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
> | > >
> | > > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in
> | history,
> | > I
> | > > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking cold
> | beer
> | > and
> | > > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite
> broadcast
> | > in
> | > > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful
life
> | is.
> | > > >
> | > > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the
> | Middle
> | > > > East. We should bring them back home.
> | > > >
> | > > > "aj" > wrote in message
> | > > > ...
> | > > >>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
> | > > >>
> | > > >> Where ?????
> | > > >>
> | > > >>
> | > > >
> | > > >
> | > >
> | >
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
>
>

Arthur Hagen
July 6th 03, 12:41 AM
"Dave" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
[chop]
> to bash America. "Eins, zwei, drei, vier". Then again, I seem to remember
> you spouting the same tired crap last year around this time and me saying
> much the same to you in return...then again, what else can one expect from
a
> typical American-bashing *MATROX USER* at that? ;-) How's your
Parfeelmynuts
> hanging?
>
> I'll quote someone else: "Look at the big brain on Arthur!"

You appear to be more interested in discussing individuals than the topics
of the discussions. Ask yourself why.

> Was this you on April 4 of this year? Or are you going to have a Ronald
> Reagan moment about it? Maybe the FBI should be aware of your sentiments?

It was indeed me, but if you intend to use the quote against me, at least
quote it in context and in full. I stand for what I say and said -- that I
find terrorism atrocious, and that terrorism is horrible, although sometimes
the only effective recourse for the truly desperate (Simon Bolivar, Joma
Kenyatta and many other freedom fighters / terrorists did horrible deeds,
but they were desperate enough, and it worked). That a person can see *why*
someone does something horrible doesn't mean that they approve. Is
everything so black and white to you? You must have an extremely easy life
then!

> You could always strap a bomb to yourself and walk to your local American
> consulate. I'm sure nobody'd miss ya...;-PpPpPp

That is not my way. If you had read more of what I've posted (funny if you
haven't, cause you seem to have a great interest in me) I'm against killing
whether it's done by suicide bombers or B2 bombers.

And now -- *plink*
--
*Art

Proconsul
July 6th 03, 01:17 AM
You need to read more slowly and improve your comprehension - it's rare when
anyone can so completely miss the point as you have....:)

PC

"Frode" > wrote in message
...
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
| Hash: SHA1
|
| Proconsul wrote:
| > The fact that Lexus enjoys a good reputation doesn't segue to
| > "technological superiority" for Japan....
|
| The other poster made a specific point when it came to cars. So, yes, in
| this case it does. It has nothing to do with reputation, it's a
statistical
| fact. They're more reliable.
|
| > The most ubiquitous Toyota is the Camry - all of which are manufactured
| > in Lordsburg, Ohio.....:)
|
| That's not very relevant. There's Toyota factories all over the world.
That
| people of all nationalities can put together the car according to the
| specifications and technology developed in Japan doesn't make it not be a
| japanese car anymore. Nor does it make american cars more reliable than
| japanese ones.
|
| > As I said, you cannot support one word of your novel thesis in re
Japan's
| > "superiority"....!
|
| I didn't say any such thing. Learn to separate posters and read quotes
| properly. I'm only answering your bold statement that nothing the other
| poster said could be confirmed. You're wrong, he made a point of cars,
| which is verifyable.
|
| > Japan is certainly an advanced, industrialized country
| > BUT the inventions, technology base, etc., is mostly to be found in the
| > USA.....!
|
| In your own words: "Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this
| extraordinary thesis.....:)"
|
| Just because you believe americans invented everything that runs on power
| doesn't make it so.
|
|
| - --
| Frode
|
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|
|

Proconsul
July 6th 03, 01:20 AM
I don't disagree with the notion that many who came from other places
contributed to the success of the United States - that's the "melting pot"
theory that made the USA great! I am the grandson of immigrants - I value
them more than you can imagine...!

The United States is unique among all the nations of the world because it is
the only place that one could rise above one's class. Millions of immigrants
did so, and built a great nation. All the "anti" claptrap posted herein is
undeserved, untrue and disgraceful......

PC

"chrismm" > wrote in message
.. .
| Really ? Put it this way many things are invented in the US that is true,
| however if you go to the patent office and look you will see that the
people
| who actually invented the things were in fact NOT american but people from
| foreign countries who came to the US because thats where the money is. If
| america had no gold or oil it would not be the force it is.
| As it is its a wonderful country that is wasted on the people who invaded
| it, people who were rejects from other countries or people who were force
to
| live there by those said reject people.
| "Proconsul" > wrote in message
| news:[email protected]
| > Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this extraordinary
| > thesis.....:)
| >
| > PC
| >
| > "chrismm" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and socially.
| The
| > | trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't
understand.
| > | They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier is
| > always
| > | better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty, and
| > | noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad handling.
| > | Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and more
| > | reliable.
| > | America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical. Star
| trek
| > | is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
| > especially)
| > | basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
| > | America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has more
| > claim
| > | to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal laws
but
| > the
| > | public know how to follow them without killing each other or
themselves.
| > | "Z28" > wrote in message
| > | .. .
| > | > Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save you!
| "It
| > | > takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
| > | >
| > | > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
| > | > ...
| > | > > Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that why
your
| > the
| > | > > largest nation of fatasses?
| > | > >
| > | > > And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the
world -
| > the
| > | > US
| > | > > takes 2nd place.
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > in article , SST at
| > | > > wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
| > | > >
| > | > > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in
| > | history,
| > | > I
| > | > > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking
cold
| > | beer
| > | > and
| > | > > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite
| > broadcast
| > | > in
| > | > > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful
| life
| > | is.
| > | > > >
| > | > > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the
| > | Middle
| > | > > > East. We should bring them back home.
| > | > > >
| > | > > > "aj" > wrote in message
| > | > > > ...
| > | > > >>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
| > | > > >>
| > | > > >> Where ?????
| > | > > >>
| > | > > >>
| > | > > >
| > | > > >
| > | > >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

OldfartJC
July 6th 03, 01:41 AM
What pool of idiots did you climb out of. "Rejects from other countries",
what an idiotic statement you dumb ass. So your saying that all the
Europeans who came over here including those from England were rejects from
those countries. Give me a break. Thank goodness most people from the U.K.
aren't idiots like you.

"chrismm" > wrote in message
.. .
> Really ? Put it this way many things are invented in the US that is true,
> however if you go to the patent office and look you will see that the
people
> who actually invented the things were in fact NOT american but people from
> foreign countries who came to the US because thats where the money is. If
> america had no gold or oil it would not be the force it is.
> As it is its a wonderful country that is wasted on the people who invaded
> it, people who were rejects from other countries or people who were force
to
> live there by those said reject people.
> "Proconsul" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this extraordinary
> > thesis.....:)
> >
> > PC
> >
> > "chrismm" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > | Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and socially.
> The
> > | trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't
understand.
> > | They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier is
> > always
> > | better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty, and
> > | noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad handling.
> > | Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and more
> > | reliable.
> > | America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical. Star
> trek
> > | is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
> > especially)
> > | basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
> > | America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has more
> > claim
> > | to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal laws
but
> > the
> > | public know how to follow them without killing each other or
themselves.
> > | "Z28" > wrote in message
> > | .. .
> > | > Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save you!
> "It
> > | > takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
> > | >
> > | > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> > | > ...
> > | > > Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that why
your
> > the
> > | > > largest nation of fatasses?
> > | > >
> > | > > And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the
world -
> > the
> > | > US
> > | > > takes 2nd place.
> > | > >
> > | > >
> > | > > in article , SST at
> > | > > wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
> > | > >
> > | > > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in
> > | history,
> > | > I
> > | > > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking
cold
> > | beer
> > | > and
> > | > > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite
> > broadcast
> > | > in
> > | > > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how wonderful
> life
> > | is.
> > | > > >
> > | > > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in the
> > | Middle
> > | > > > East. We should bring them back home.
> > | > > >
> > | > > > "aj" > wrote in message
> > | > > > ...
> > | > > >>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
> > | > > >>
> > | > > >> Where ?????
> > | > > >>
> > | > > >>
> > | > > >
> > | > > >
> > | > >
> > | >
> > | >
> > | >
> > |
> > |
> >
> >
>
>

chrismm
July 6th 03, 01:50 AM
It is deserved, the fact that Americans cant see why proves the point
totally. America claims to be a Christian country, yet it behaves in a very
unchristian way (death sentences, wars etc), that is why Muslims from the
middle east hate you so. You cant even follow the rules that you claim to
hold so dear !! You use huge amounts of the earths resources and when other
countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any agreement to
reduce that pollution. You invade other countries in violation of
international will (Britain is no better and I wont be voting for the
current UK government).. need i go on ?
"Proconsul" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I don't disagree with the notion that many who came from other places
> contributed to the success of the United States - that's the "melting pot"
> theory that made the USA great! I am the grandson of immigrants - I value
> them more than you can imagine...!
>
> The United States is unique among all the nations of the world because it
is
> the only place that one could rise above one's class. Millions of
immigrants
> did so, and built a great nation. All the "anti" claptrap posted herein is
> undeserved, untrue and disgraceful......
>
> PC
>
> "chrismm" > wrote in message
> .. .
> | Really ? Put it this way many things are invented in the US that is
true,
> | however if you go to the patent office and look you will see that the
> people
> | who actually invented the things were in fact NOT american but people
from
> | foreign countries who came to the US because thats where the money is.
If
> | america had no gold or oil it would not be the force it is.
> | As it is its a wonderful country that is wasted on the people who
invaded
> | it, people who were rejects from other countries or people who were
force
> to
> | live there by those said reject people.
> | "Proconsul" > wrote in message
> | news:[email protected]
> | > Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this extraordinary
> | > thesis.....:)
> | >
> | > PC
> | >
> | > "chrismm" > wrote in message
> | > ...
> | > | Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and
socially.
> | The
> | > | trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't
> understand.
> | > | They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier is
> | > always
> | > | better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty,
and
> | > | noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad
handling.
> | > | Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and more
> | > | reliable.
> | > | America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical.
Star
> | trek
> | > | is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
> | > especially)
> | > | basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
> | > | America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has
more
> | > claim
> | > | to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal laws
> but
> | > the
> | > | public know how to follow them without killing each other or
> themselves.
> | > | "Z28" > wrote in message
> | > | .. .
> | > | > Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save
you!
> | "It
> | > | > takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
> | > | >
> | > | > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> | > | > ...
> | > | > > Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that why
> your
> | > the
> | > | > > largest nation of fatasses?
> | > | > >
> | > | > > And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the
> world -
> | > the
> | > | > US
> | > | > > takes 2nd place.
> | > | > >
> | > | > >
> | > | > > in article , SST
at
> | > | > > wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
> | > | > >
> | > | > > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation
in
> | > | history,
> | > | > I
> | > | > > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking
> cold
> | > | beer
> | > | > and
> | > | > > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite
> | > broadcast
> | > | > in
> | > | > > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how
wonderful
> | life
> | > | is.
> | > | > > >
> | > | > > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in
the
> | > | Middle
> | > | > > > East. We should bring them back home.
> | > | > > >
> | > | > > > "aj" > wrote in message
> | > | > > > ...
> | > | > > >>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
> | > | > > >>
> | > | > > >> Where ?????
> | > | > > >>
> | > | > > >>
> | > | > > >
> | > | > > >
> | > | > >
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > |
> | > |
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
>
>

neopolaris
July 6th 03, 01:52 AM
"Thomas Andersson" > wrote in message
...
> neopolaris wrote:
>
> > More like we have too many crybaby socialists here that's all. FOX
> > is the first network to tell it like it is. We will make this world
> > a better place or die trying. Any correlation to Hitler is retarded.
>
> Even more offtopic, but Fox is CRAP.. they cancelled Futurama!!!
> :(
>
> ;)
>
>
>
I heard that! They cancelled Fast Lane too. No more chicks and chrome.
Now that I think about it. Fox!, you suck!

neopolaris
July 6th 03, 01:56 AM
"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Daemon Rose" > wrote in message
> t...
> > > Isn't it amazing how many people, from so many countries, hate
"America"
> > and
> > > the "american way"
> >
> > Even more amazing is that many of these same countries have no problem
> > accepting millions of U.S. dollars in foreign aid and will obviously
> expect
> > us to deal with the next dictator like Hitler or Hussein when they start
> > getting carried away and invade other countries.
>
> FYI: The US pays *less* in foreign aid pro capita than any other western
> country. It's even notorious for not paying what it already has promised.
>
> Regards,
> --
> *Art
>

Bull****. It's called an embargo. You get no moneys when you misbehave.
We just paid plenty in blood to keep this planet safe. What more do you
want.

neopolaris
July 6th 03, 02:05 AM
I agree. I still don't care if we ever find any WMD in Iraq. Never did.
France gave them 90 days notice of our every move anyways. I would have
been more surprised if that dumbass had left weapons. I doubt we have seen
the last of him or sim.
"SST" > wrote in message
t...
> They saw it coming, the WTC was the target of a few terrorist attempts.
>
> This last one was successful, unfortunately. The retaliation for such
> actions must be severe or we will find the USA allot like Israel, under a
> constant state of violence.
>
> The price the Arabs are paying is severe and its just begun. This should
be
> a very strong message for the rest of the world. That is it just got a
whole
> lot smaller and there is no room for us all. Since we are bigger and
> stronger, Darwin's laws governing nature can apply. The leaders need to
get
> things in order to our liking or there will be blood shed on both sides.
My
> guess is that more on their side then ours.
>
> Iraq having WMD? Who cared? You think the average 30-something year olds
> cared? No, they didn't, we wanted him gone because we didn't trust his. I
> think Iran should be next along with Syria.
>
>
> "yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
> a...
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
> >
> > Daemon Rose wrote:
> > >
> > > Are you insinuating the Canadians were responsible for that, ****wit?
> > >
> > > As your comment indicates, Canadians aren't smart enough to pull
> something
> > > like that off. Even if they were though, America would have the
> Canadian
> > > military (Canada does have a military, right?...LOL) on it's knees in
> about
> > > two hours, so keep laughing. Sounds like you've chuckled yourself
right
> > > into a stupor.
> > >
> > > Snap out of it.
> > >
> >
> > Obviously my comment about the education level in the U.S was right on
> > target. My point was that the mighty U.S didn't even see it coming. And
> > the mighty U.S still hasn't resolved the issue.
> >
>
>

Dave
July 6th 03, 02:25 AM
"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> You appear to be more interested in discussing individuals than the topics
> of the discussions. Ask yourself why.

Because you (as an individual) are apparently more interested in slamming
this country right and left using insubstantial diatribe, unfocussed ad
hominem attacks (hey, I LIKE ad hominem attacks!), and an air of contrived
superiority than actually promoting worthwhile discussion---and it is my
sworn duty as a Good Ugly American to stamp out ignorance wherever
applicable. This is by no means the first time your anti-Americanism has
been foisted off on the general public. In fact you have a history of it. I
just want to get to the root of it is all. Forgive me for presuming that
this is mere hypocrisy on your part:

For one you state:

"Things are never as black/white as radicals on either side see them. You
can be a socialist without being a communist, you can be anti-war without
being pro-terrorists, and you can be US American without hating/fearing
other countries and peoples.

And don't forget, this is Usenet where there *are* no borders, no body
odour, no obesity, no skin colour, and no congressmen. Let's keep it that
way."

Then this:

"There's no border control who asks us whether we
know anyone who's been a member of a communist party before allowing us to
visit our family. There's no policemen who will beat us to an inch of our
lives because we happen to be black, gay, or of a different faith at the
wrong place at the wrong time. There's no politicians who will have us
detained indefinitely as a threat to national homeland security for
protesting and demonstrating here.

Do not sully Usenet with patriotic rallies. This is not, and will never be,
the proper outlet for nationalistic or xenophobic drivel. If you really
want to discuss (yes, Usenet is for *DISCUSSION*) the US declaration of
independence, I suggest you head over to soc.culture.usa
In these other groups, you may end up to a crowd that doesn't give a damn
about your country as long as the US dollar stays low."

I think your bias is hanging out of your shorts. Not only is this
ENTIRELY what you are apparently critiquing me for "discussing individuals",
you are not wasting any time getting to the roots of your distaste for our
country on its day of independence no less. And you are contradicting
yourself. Some of us (not necessarily myself) may find this to be offensive
Eurotrash mentality. Besides, you are merely adding to the OT discussion
with your $.02 while telling one of our countrymen (I notice all your
similar responses are directed at not much other so far) not to express his
patriotic spirit ON THE DAY OF OUR INDEPENDENCE, then turning around to ****
on our cornflakes. You don't live here, pay taxes, or contribute to this
country, or do you? You're just armchair quarterbacking. It is neither
entertaining nor pleasant, it is wizened, small, and laughably
insignificant. I suppose I could as easily say "Do Not Sully Usenet With
Antiamerican Sentiment etc. etc." as if *either of us is in a position to
dictate that*...I'd be just as on target as you think you are. Please be
true to your own dicta and at least confine it to your own immediate sphere.
The funniest part is that you don't expect to get soundly thrashed for it,
so you try to retreat behind a veneer of uberculture as if you think you're
safe. Sorry, we aim to please!
You know, you old sourpuss, I would have raised a glass (of
non-alcoholic beverage no less: I'm not much of a drinker) and toasted YOUR
country's Independence Day if you had posted it here, regardless of what I
think of the mess on top of it.

You also stated to me this:

"I'm not French, but now you make me wonder -- where on Earth do you live
where being *elitist* is a bad thing? Does your culture praise mediocrity
as the ideal?"

Was this or was this not a barbed comment? Pretty milquetoast for an attempt
at being subtle. Hey, I can give as well as take...can you? I gave you a
dictionary link to help further your understanding of our language. Perhaps
you can now thank me for clarifying your slight misconception? ;-)

> > Was this you on April 4 of this year? Or are you going to have a Ronald
> > Reagan moment about it? Maybe the FBI should be aware of your
sentiments?
>
> It was indeed me, but if you intend to use the quote against me, at least
> quote it in context and in full.

Sorry, it was all I found to throw atcha on such short notice. I don't have
all day at this ;-)

I stand for what I say and said -- that I
> find terrorism atrocious, and that terrorism is horrible, although
sometimes
> the only effective recourse for the truly desperate (Simon Bolivar, Joma
> Kenyatta and many other freedom fighters / terrorists did horrible deeds,
> but they were desperate enough, and it worked). That a person can see
*why*
> someone does something horrible doesn't mean that they approve. Is
> everything so black and white to you? You must have an extremely easy
life
> then!

> > You could always strap a bomb to yourself and walk to your local
American
> > consulate. I'm sure nobody'd miss ya...;-PpPpPp
>
> That is not my way. If you had read more of what I've posted (funny if
you
> haven't, cause you seem to have a great interest in me) I'm against
killing
> whether it's done by suicide bombers or B2 bombers.

Don't flatter yourself, you ain't no Winston Churchill (the REAL one)...but
it's nice to know this country doesn't have to worry about you
suicide-bombing us any time soon...;-) It's also nice to know we share
similar views on the subject.

>
> And now -- *plink*

Aww, I'm so hurt!

http://batmandork.hypermart.net/wavs/makemydy.wav

Dave
July 6th 03, 02:47 AM
"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message ...
>
> "Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message


snip

> > FYI: The US pays *less* in foreign aid pro capita than any other
western
> > country. It's even notorious for not paying what it already has
promised.
> >
> > Regards,
> > --
> > *Art
> >
>
> Bull****. It's called an embargo. You get no moneys when you misbehave.
> We just paid plenty in blood to keep this planet safe. What more do you
> want.

How easily this is overlooked when people have been fat, safe, and happily
jaded for awhile...

neopolaris
July 6th 03, 02:55 AM
"Dave" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
...
> >
> > "Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
>
>
> snip
>
> > > FYI: The US pays *less* in foreign aid pro capita than any other
> western
> > > country. It's even notorious for not paying what it already has
> promised.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > --
> > > *Art
> > >
> >
> > Bull****. It's called an embargo. You get no moneys when you
misbehave.
> > We just paid plenty in blood to keep this planet safe. What more do you
> > want.
>
> How easily this is overlooked when people have been fat, safe, and happily
> jaded for awhile...
>
>
Could you be any more vague with your pointless posts please. I'd hate to
see you make a stand. This is probably your only soapbox. Nice effort for
The Grand Cause you are fighting for. Bitch, bitch yet I bet you never try
to do a damned thing about ANYTHING!

chrismm
July 6th 03, 03:03 AM
I thought that might have got a response, another american failing, they
cant tell when they are being played. Anyway you would be surprised how many
people in europe think of america in that way.
"OldfartJC" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> What pool of idiots did you climb out of. "Rejects from other countries",
> what an idiotic statement you dumb ass. So your saying that all the
> Europeans who came over here including those from England were rejects
from
> those countries. Give me a break. Thank goodness most people from the U.K.
> aren't idiots like you.
>
> "chrismm" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > Really ? Put it this way many things are invented in the US that is
true,
> > however if you go to the patent office and look you will see that the
> people
> > who actually invented the things were in fact NOT american but people
from
> > foreign countries who came to the US because thats where the money is.
If
> > america had no gold or oil it would not be the force it is.
> > As it is its a wonderful country that is wasted on the people who
invaded
> > it, people who were rejects from other countries or people who were
force
> to
> > live there by those said reject people.
> > "Proconsul" > wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> > > Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this extraordinary
> > > thesis.....:)
> > >
> > > PC
> > >
> > > "chrismm" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > | Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and
socially.
> > The
> > > | trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't
> understand.
> > > | They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier is
> > > always
> > > | better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty,
and
> > > | noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad
handling.
> > > | Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and more
> > > | reliable.
> > > | America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical.
Star
> > trek
> > > | is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
> > > especially)
> > > | basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
> > > | America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has
more
> > > claim
> > > | to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal laws
> but
> > > the
> > > | public know how to follow them without killing each other or
> themselves.
> > > | "Z28" > wrote in message
> > > | .. .
> > > | > Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save
you!
> > "It
> > > | > takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
> > > | >
> > > | > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> > > | > ...
> > > | > > Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that why
> your
> > > the
> > > | > > largest nation of fatasses?
> > > | > >
> > > | > > And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the
> world -
> > > the
> > > | > US
> > > | > > takes 2nd place.
> > > | > >
> > > | > >
> > > | > > in article , SST
at
> > > | > > wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
> > > | > >
> > > | > > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation
in
> > > | history,
> > > | > I
> > > | > > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie, drinking
> cold
> > > | beer
> > > | > and
> > > | > > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite
> > > broadcast
> > > | > in
> > > | > > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how
wonderful
> > life
> > > | is.
> > > | > > >
> > > | > > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in
the
> > > | Middle
> > > | > > > East. We should bring them back home.
> > > | > > >
> > > | > > > "aj" > wrote in message
> > > | > > > ...
> > > | > > >>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
> > > | > > >>
> > > | > > >> Where ?????
> > > | > > >>
> > > | > > >>
> > > | > > >
> > > | > > >
> > > | > >
> > > | >
> > > | >
> > > | >
> > > |
> > > |
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

M
July 6th 03, 03:25 AM
The only thing this thread proves is that idiocy knows no geological or
governmental bounds.Give it a rest,it's off topic,doesn't help anyone,and
you're making fools of yourselves.
"chrismm" > wrote in message
...
> I thought that might have got a response, another american failing, they
> cant tell when they are being played. Anyway you would be surprised how
many
> people in europe think of america in that way.
> "OldfartJC" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > What pool of idiots did you climb out of. "Rejects from other
countries",
> > what an idiotic statement you dumb ass. So your saying that all the
> > Europeans who came over here including those from England were rejects
> from
> > those countries. Give me a break. Thank goodness most people from the
U.K.
> > aren't idiots like you.
> >
> > "chrismm" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> > > Really ? Put it this way many things are invented in the US that is
> true,
> > > however if you go to the patent office and look you will see that the
> > people
> > > who actually invented the things were in fact NOT american but people
> from
> > > foreign countries who came to the US because thats where the money is.
> If
> > > america had no gold or oil it would not be the force it is.
> > > As it is its a wonderful country that is wasted on the people who
> invaded
> > > it, people who were rejects from other countries or people who were
> force
> > to
> > > live there by those said reject people.
> > > "Proconsul" > wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]
> > > > Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this extraordinary
> > > > thesis.....:)
> > > >
> > > > PC
> > > >
> > > > "chrismm" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > | Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and
> socially.
> > > The
> > > > | trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't
> > understand.
> > > > | They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier
is
> > > > always
> > > > | better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty,
> and
> > > > | noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad
> handling.
> > > > | Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and
more
> > > > | reliable.
> > > > | America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical.
> Star
> > > trek
> > > > | is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
> > > > especially)
> > > > | basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
> > > > | America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has
> more
> > > > claim
> > > > | to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal
laws
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > | public know how to follow them without killing each other or
> > themselves.
> > > > | "Z28" > wrote in message
> > > > | .. .
> > > > | > Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save
> you!
> > > "It
> > > > | > takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
> > > > | >
> > > > | > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
> > > > | > ...
> > > > | > > Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that
why
> > your
> > > > the
> > > > | > > largest nation of fatasses?
> > > > | > >
> > > > | > > And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the
> > world -
> > > > the
> > > > | > US
> > > > | > > takes 2nd place.
> > > > | > >
> > > > | > >
> > > > | > > in article , SST
> at
> > > > | > > wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
> > > > | > >
> > > > | > > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation
> in
> > > > | history,
> > > > | > I
> > > > | > > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie,
drinking
> > cold
> > > > | beer
> > > > | > and
> > > > | > > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite
> > > > broadcast
> > > > | > in
> > > > | > > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how
> wonderful
> > > life
> > > > | is.
> > > > | > > >
> > > > | > > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in
> the
> > > > | Middle
> > > > | > > > East. We should bring them back home.
> > > > | > > >
> > > > | > > > "aj" > wrote in message
> > > > | > > > ...
> > > > | > > >>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
> > > > | > > >>
> > > > | > > >> Where ?????
> > > > | > > >>
> > > > | > > >>
> > > > | > > >
> > > > | > > >
> > > > | > >
> > > > | >
> > > > | >
> > > > | >
> > > > |
> > > > |
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Dave
July 6th 03, 03:26 AM
"Frode" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Dave wrote:
> >> Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and socially.
> > Nope. Actually, they mostly improve upon designs largely given to them
by
> > American scientists and researchers.

> Those wouldn't be the same ones that moved to america from all over the
> world, would they?

Now why did they move here in the first place? Now why do they move here
now? Hmm...nothing to do with places like MIT, for example? Or Stanford? Or
GE, or Bell Labs?

> If you have any empirical data to back that claim up links would be
> appreciated btw.

1. Automobile.
2. Television and certain other multimedia devices ("Zworykin had a patent,
but Farnsworth had a picture." )
3. Medical technology
4. Semiconductor technology
5. Certainly not gaming consoles

And that's just the start. Find your own damn links! ;-) Do I exist solely
for the purpose of your edification? I didn't think so...

> > Innovation is not exactly one of
> > Japan's strong suits, neither is consumer protection...
>
> That seems a bit like throwing rocks in a glass house. I saw the other day
> that people were talking about buying extended warranties to cover
> malfunctions beyond 90 days. Is 90 days all american consumer protection
> laws demand a product to last before flipping the consumer the proverbial
> bird?

Perhaps if you would study our consumer protection laws before engaging in
baseless conjecture you would learn the answer to this? See below for a good
example of how Japanese consumer protection works...

> > or fairness in trade practices.
>
> Yes, I've heard they're horrible. They seem to treasure a promise while a
> contract is a formality apparently.

Same everywhere. No, I am talking about, for example, the overpriced low-end
Frigidaire sitting next to the flagship Toshiba of the same price on the
department store shelf. Or our own imports rotting in crates at their docks
after being tied up in tariff disputes by a little bug-in-the-ear of the
Trade Minister while our state governments in part subsidize the
construction of their manufacturing facilities here. The info is out there.
All you have to do is find a search engine. Do you remember when the Sony
Walkman hit the shores here? Well, it had already been marketed to the
public there...with nylon drive gears that stripped after a short time of
use. By the time it came here, it was replaced with a teflon part. This is
but one example of Japan using its own market as a beta-test for export
product. There are MANY others. Now do you think American consumers would
let this kind of nonsense go on unchecked? Nope. We wouldn't take this crap.
There would be class action taken. The fact is, we still have laws that
effectively provide us some measure of guarantee against this abuse of
public trust. We also have the option of voting with our dollar and not
buying shoddy equipment, the ability to disseminate information freely of
this shoddy equipment or service, and I don't see any evidence of payoffs at
Consumer Reports' headquarters.

I heard an account of a western
> businessman that went to Japan to do business, and after days doing all
> sorts of things with the japanese companion he'd still not managed to get
> more than a sentence about the contract squeezed into a conversation. The
> jap was more interested in getting to know him and once he decided he was
> trustworthy the deal was done before any contract had hit the table.

And this one particular account is naturally representative of how everyone
does business everywhere there?

> In the US business is so fair companies routinely insure their employees
> against lawsuits.

The problem is that there are far too many lawyers. Between them and the
insurance companies, I don't know who accounts for the biggest kickbacks!
They naturally like to keep themselves in demand. This is cursory to
fairness in business practice. You see, in Japan, you cross someone the
wrong way and the mob just gets rid of you. No suits, no mess. You end up in
a chemical vat, or in a landfill somewhere. And everyone keeps quiet because
they know it could as easily be them. And why would anyone sue a member of
their keiretsu? Not exactly what I would call conducive to a favorable
arrangement. Sorry, not this time either...nice try though. Kept me
thinking. This is a good thing...

Dave
July 6th 03, 03:45 AM
"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message ...
>
> "Dave" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >
> > "neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > "Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
> >
> >
> > snip
> >
> > > > FYI: The US pays *less* in foreign aid pro capita than any other
> > western
> > > > country. It's even notorious for not paying what it already has
> > promised.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > --
> > > > *Art
> > > >
> > >
> > > Bull****. It's called an embargo. You get no moneys when you
> misbehave.
> > > We just paid plenty in blood to keep this planet safe. What more do
you
> > > want.
> >
> > How easily this is overlooked when people have been fat, safe, and
happily
> > jaded for awhile...
> >
> >
> Could you be any more vague with your pointless posts please.

Oh, I'm about to get very specific, don't you worry, my friend...

I'd hate to
> see you make a stand. This is probably your only soapbox.

You've certainly wasted much time here with your silly "I'm a grunt and I'll
kick your ass" machismo, now haven't you? It's only my soapbox-du-jour. It
will become rather tedious trying to explain myself to you time and time
again, so I'll do it r-e-a-l s-l-o-w i-n l-a-n-g-u-a-g-e y-o-u
u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d l-e-s-t t-h-e-r-e b-e a-n-y f-u-r-t-h-e-r
c-o-n-f-u-s-i-o-n:

What I (obviously) meant is the frickin' rest of the world sometimes seems
to take for granted that our citizens fought and died for their liberation
in not one but two world wars. The fact there was a lend-lease arrangement
involved does not change the fact OUR troops laid down their lives for THEIR
interests. No amount of money repaid can bring anyone back. In essence I was
agreeing with you. So now you wanna get hissy at me? Feeling froggy? Bring
it on, cowboy!

Nice effort for
> The Grand Cause you are fighting for.

Which is, in your own impression, please?

Bitch, bitch yet I bet you never try
> to do a damned thing about ANYTHING!

ROFL. I do much more than you'll ever realize. You see, now I am trying to
correct our misunderstanding, for one thing. Since you apparently have
absolutely zero finger-****ing idea of what I'm talking about and you're
just on auto-attack, I suppose I'll let this one slide as a mistake...

There, I made my stand. I stated my piece. Happy now? :-)

neopolaris
July 6th 03, 04:06 AM
You make a good point but there weren't any Jewish terrorists. Paranoia
will destroy ya.

PS: thanks for not going straight to the usual name-calling.

"Winston Churchill" > wrote in message
...
> >We will make this world a better place
> >or die trying.
> Thats what Hitler believed. Through Joseph Goebbels
> media.The germans fell for it too.
> Don't fall for the one sided RIGHT WING propaganda like
> FOX....
>
>
> >FOX is the first network to tell it like it is.
>
> Thats what the germans said about the lies Goebbels
> put out to a scared nation, "look out for jewish terrorists"
> (was the message throughout) who were going to undermine
> the mighty german nation.
>
> Read between the lines.
>
> In their arrogance, THEY decided what THEY wanted for europe
> was best, and went about their grizzly work, as they saw it........
>
> "making the world a better place?"---------------- they died trying.
>
>
> Winston Churchill
>
> PS, I'm not a socialist. Nor am I a pacifist.
>
>

Dave
July 6th 03, 04:26 AM
"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message ...
>
> "Dave" > wrote in message

snip

> My God get a fricken life!!! Getting all "wordy" makes you so much more
> irritating!

This is because it forces you to actually think for a change?

Anybody®
July 6th 03, 04:39 AM
<snicker>
"Dave" > wrote in message
news:%[email protected]
>
> "neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
...
> >
> > "Dave" > wrote in message
>
> snip
>
> > My God get a fricken life!!! Getting all "wordy" makes you so much more
> > irritating!
>
> This is because it forces you to actually think for a change?
>
>

Proconsul
July 6th 03, 04:45 AM
Rubbish - don't go on, it's better to quit while you're behind......:)

PC

"chrismm" > wrote in message
...
| It is deserved, the fact that Americans cant see why proves the point
| totally. America claims to be a Christian country, yet it behaves in a
very
| unchristian way (death sentences, wars etc), that is why Muslims from the
| middle east hate you so. You cant even follow the rules that you claim to
| hold so dear !! You use huge amounts of the earths resources and when
other
| countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any agreement
to
| reduce that pollution. You invade other countries in violation of
| international will (Britain is no better and I wont be voting for the
| current UK government).. need i go on ?
| "Proconsul" > wrote in message
| news:[email protected]
| > I don't disagree with the notion that many who came from other places
| > contributed to the success of the United States - that's the "melting
pot"
| > theory that made the USA great! I am the grandson of immigrants - I
value
| > them more than you can imagine...!
| >
| > The United States is unique among all the nations of the world because
it
| is
| > the only place that one could rise above one's class. Millions of
| immigrants
| > did so, and built a great nation. All the "anti" claptrap posted herein
is
| > undeserved, untrue and disgraceful......
| >
| > PC
| >
| > "chrismm" > wrote in message
| > .. .
| > | Really ? Put it this way many things are invented in the US that is
| true,
| > | however if you go to the patent office and look you will see that the
| > people
| > | who actually invented the things were in fact NOT american but people
| from
| > | foreign countries who came to the US because thats where the money is.
| If
| > | america had no gold or oil it would not be the force it is.
| > | As it is its a wonderful country that is wasted on the people who
| invaded
| > | it, people who were rejects from other countries or people who were
| force
| > to
| > | live there by those said reject people.
| > | "Proconsul" > wrote in message
| > | news:[email protected]
| > | > Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this extraordinary
| > | > thesis.....:)
| > | >
| > | > PC
| > | >
| > | > "chrismm" > wrote in message
| > | > ...
| > | > | Japan is more advanced than the US both technologically and
| socially.
| > | The
| > | > | trouble with Americans is they cannot accept what they don't
| > understand.
| > | > | They seem to think that bigger, faster, more powerful and noisier
is
| > | > always
| > | > | better. Its not. Just look at their cars, they are large, thirsty,
| and
| > | > | noisy, but they are very badly made, very ugly and very bad
| handling.
| > | > | Japanese cars are smaller, faster, smarter, higher quality and
more
| > | > | reliable.
| > | > | America doesn't understand subtlety. They are also hypocritical.
| Star
| > | trek
| > | > | is one of the most popular TV shows. Isn't the federation (earth
| > | > especially)
| > | > | basically at worst communist and at best extremely liberal ?
| > | > | America land of the free?? um no not really, the netherlands has
| more
| > | > claim
| > | > | to that than the US ever will, why ? because they have liberal
laws
| > but
| > | > the
| > | > | public know how to follow them without killing each other or
| > themselves.
| > | > | "Z28" > wrote in message
| > | > | .. .
| > | > | > Kai, get outta the jungle! Read book, liberals freaks will save
| you!
| > | "It
| > | > | > takes a jumbled mind, by HC" that should work for you.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > "Kai Robinson" > wrote in message
| > | > | > ...
| > | > | > > Meanwhile, you lot just tend to expand widthways....is that
why
| > your
| > | > the
| > | > | > > largest nation of fatasses?
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > > And Japan is the most technologically advanced nation in the
| > world -
| > | > the
| > | > | > US
| > | > | > > takes 2nd place.
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > > in article , SST
| at
| > | > | > > wrote on 7/5/03 5:28 am:
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > > > Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation
| in
| > | > | history,
| > | > | > I
| > | > | > > > would say that they are right here eating apple pie,
drinking
| > cold
| > | > | beer
| > | > | > and
| > | > | > > > watching fireworks on our High Definition TV's via satellite
| > | > broadcast
| > | > | > in
| > | > | > > > the comfort of our air-conditioned homes gloating how
| wonderful
| > | life
| > | > | is.
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > > I feel really bad for the brave young men and women still in
| the
| > | > | Middle
| > | > | > > > East. We should bring them back home.
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > > "aj" > wrote in message
| > | > | > > > ...
| > | > | > > >>> Granted there are some intelligent Americans
| > | > | > > >>
| > | > | > > >> Where ?????
| > | > | > > >>
| > | > | > > >>
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

Dave
July 6th 03, 04:55 AM
"Proconsul" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Rubbish - don't go on, it's better to quit while you're behind......:)

What do you expect from someone using Star Trek as a model of American
society? Not exactly a well-grounded thesis ;^D

> PC
>
> "chrismm" > wrote in message
>

(Utter tripe)

Arthur Hagen
July 6th 03, 05:14 AM
"Dave" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> You don't live here, pay taxes, or contribute to this
> country, or do you?
[ chop ]
> You know, you old sourpuss, I would have raised a glass (of
> non-alcoholic beverage no less: I'm not much of a drinker) and toasted
YOUR
> country's Independence Day if you had posted it here, regardless of what I
> think of the mess on top of it.

That would be September 3, the Treaty of Paris.

> "I'm not French, but now you make me wonder -- where on Earth do you live
> where being *elitist* is a bad thing? Does your culture praise mediocrity
> as the ideal?"
>
> Was this or was this not a barbed comment? Pretty milquetoast for an
attempt
> at being subtle. Hey, I can give as well as take...can you? I gave you a
> dictionary link to help further your understanding of our language.
Perhaps
> you can now thank me for clarifying your slight misconception? ;-)

I still don't see what's wrong with wanting an elite to run a country, as
opposed to those with [greatest charisma | most money | the right parents |
military backing]. I'm convinced that the world would be a much better
place if brains were appreciated (and applied) more than brawns. Man would
still exploit man, but at least it would be for a reason and not a belief.

> > And now -- *plink*
>
> Aww, I'm so hurt!

The problem with using two computers and Outlook Express is I have to read
and plonk twice! The Identities folder seems to get a random SID on each
box, even with a network login and roaming profile. Hmmm, Microsoft never
really understood network logins, but this they could easily have fixed.

--
*Art

neopolaris
July 6th 03, 05:37 AM
Not cool. I'm pretty sure this is against Coxs' TOS. Best wishes to the
people of Venezuela though. They grow a mean bean.

"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>
<snip>
>
<snip>
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>
> *Art
>

Proconsul
July 6th 03, 06:00 AM
I "expect" nothing from anyone.....:)

PC

"Dave" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
|
| "Proconsul" > wrote in message
| news:[email protected]
| > Rubbish - don't go on, it's better to quit while you're behind......:)
|
| What do you expect from someone using Star Trek as a model of American
| society? Not exactly a well-grounded thesis ;^D
|
| > PC
| >
| > "chrismm" > wrote in message
| >
|
| (Utter tripe)
|
|

neopolaris
July 6th 03, 06:16 AM
That's a great post. GB was elected though people of freewill and an
understanding of what he and his family are generally about. Hitler kinda
of snuck in there when old "what's his name" fell ill. I can understand
your concerns but I seriously would not worry about it. I don't see a
direct correlation and I just can't see it happening in the big picture. No
offense, but it seems more coincidental than anything. Honestly the
Americans would never allow it to happen. As far as O'reilly goes....don't
care for his approach much. I agree about his scare tactics but I really
don't think GB is using scare tactics. Scare Concerns is more fitting yet
less grammatical (Dave-bait). People should watch the footage from 911 more
often. I believe it helps to prioritize the threats we have against us way
more than any impending threat we have against another nation. They need
only to worry if they have a reason to and I'm not speaking of the citizens
of those countries either.
ie: Some probably good hearted, well-intended American says "Screw
France!" That person is angry at the governing body and probably has no
ill-content towards the average Frenchman. Another poster such as myself
says "Line them up!" Once again I am referring to those in government who
did us wrong and not to their people. I have a few friends remaining in
Iraq. Believe me when I say the Iraqis do not hate us, BUT many are
misunderstood about the entire situation. They have become rather
acclamated to their way of life and honestly, change is difficult for the
uneducated. Hopefully our actions against Hitler wannabees, like Saddam,
will be fruitful for his own people. They deserve it.

neopolaris
just neopolaris
"Winston Churchill" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's exactly my point....They (the germans) overblew the
> whole "enemy in every shadowy corner" of "Der Fatherland"
> There were a lot of jewish intelectuals (these were the terrorists in
> the nazi mind), the reich made it dangerous for THEM. Goebbels & Co
> frightened them into silence,,nobody spoke up...Hitler could say what
> he wanted...The average joe in germany believed him because nobody
> else was allowed an opinion.
>
> I've have seen O'reilly twist and name call (accusing people of being
> "Un-american" is his favourite) his "guests".
> This is not unlike the russians accusing "bad communists" of all sorts
> of stuff way back then.
> The way FOX attacks anybody, and I mean ANYBODY who doesn't
> follow their own agenda, the way they try to destroy the
> personality-livelyhood etc of any hollywood types,for instance seems
> very much in the nazi technique. EXCEPT these people may not fear
> for their lives, but probably lose everything else.
>
> FOX spread too much fear......Something that suits GW Bush.
> You see - as every one knows- "when you're scared- there is safety in
> numbers",................. One could become overly patriotic in these
> circumstances...
>
> Creating fear amongst the German people was the true seed for WWII
> and all its evils.
>
> Winston Churchill
>
> "--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these
> ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to
> institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and
> organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely
> to effect their Safety and Happiness."
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 23:06:37 -0400, "neopolaris" <.> wrote:
>
> >You make a good point but there weren't any Jewish terrorists. Paranoia
> >will destroy ya.
> >
> >PS: thanks for not going straight to the usual name-calling.
> >
> >"Winston Churchill" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >We will make this world a better place
> >> >or die trying.
> >> Thats what Hitler believed. Through Joseph Goebbels
> >> media.The germans fell for it too.
> >> Don't fall for the one sided RIGHT WING propaganda like
> >> FOX....
> >>
> >>
> >> >FOX is the first network to tell it like it is.
> >>
> >> Thats what the germans said about the lies Goebbels
> >> put out to a scared nation, "look out for jewish terrorists"
> >> (was the message throughout) who were going to undermine
> >> the mighty german nation.
> >>
> >> Read between the lines.
> >>
> >> In their arrogance, THEY decided what THEY wanted for europe
> >> was best, and went about their grizzly work, as they saw it........
> >>
> >> "making the world a better place?"---------------- they died trying.
> >>
> >>
> >> Winston Churchill
> >>
> >> PS, I'm not a socialist. Nor am I a pacifist.
> >>
> >>
> >
>

Arthur Hagen
July 6th 03, 06:20 AM
"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message ...
> Not cool. I'm pretty sure this is against Coxs' TOS.

Uhm? Posting a text message to text newsgroups as a reply to someone who
expressed his interest of seeing messages of this type? It's not illegal
content either -- as far as I know, no countries have subjected their
constitution to a copyright. As for the message size -- well, it's a LOT
smaller than the average posting from Cox.net that you'll find in other
parts of the alt.* hierarchy. Had this been comp.* or soc.*, I would have
felt bad about it, but alt.* is, after all, a free-for-all, although proper
netiquette dictates keeping binaries off non-binary newsgroups.

> Best wishes to the people of Venezuela though. They grow a mean bean.

I wouldn't know about that, but they sure are a country with people just as
worthy of respect as any other country, and who won their freedom the hard
way. They just brag less than certain others. :-)

Regards,
--
*Art

neopolaris
July 6th 03, 06:59 AM
"chrismm" > wrote in message
...
> It is deserved, the fact that Americans cant see why proves the point
> totally. America claims to be a Christian country, yet it behaves in a
very
> unchristian way (death sentences, wars etc), that is why Muslims from the
> middle east hate you so.

Wrong. I won't mention any Holy Wars. LOL!! They hate us because of Pepsi.
Think about it. The intrusion is what they hate and frankly in that respect,
I don't blame them. But the madness has to end. If they can go back to
their old ways, more power to them. If they don't is it really not our
fault. Democracy has no borders. I'm not saying "let's go save and educate
the lost tribe of New Guinea because their living conditions are like farm
animals and have never heard of America.." If they are being mass-murdered
we, the moral and caring people, have to make a decision. Save lives or
watch an untainted society become deleted.
Besides we only seek and terminate the lives of serious hardcore murderers
like Saddam and Jeffery Dahmer although Jeff took his leave "early".

You cant even follow the rules that you claim to
> hold so dear !! You use huge amounts of the earths resources and when
other
> countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any agreement
to
> reduce that pollution.

We had very good reasons for NOT signing that and most were proud that GW
stuck to his guns. We were being bullied for no good reason. Any country
in that situation would've done the same with a newly elected leader. I
didn't give us a license to pollute more...sheeese.

You invade other countries in violation of
> international will (Britain is no better and I wont be voting for the
> current UK government).. need i go on ?

Consider it a rescue mission for the people of Iraq and and the trumpeting
sounds of impending doom for those oppressing their OWN people not to
mention terrorists.

neopolaris

yugsdrawkcab
July 6th 03, 07:09 AM
X-No-Archive: Yes

Proconsul wrote:

> Geography has nothing to do with it - accessing the services available here
> that aren't available there has everything to do with it......especially the
> health care that so many Canadians cross the border to use.....

You're so far off the mark it isn't even funny.

>
> PC
>

Arthur Hagen
July 6th 03, 07:12 AM
"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message ...
> You make a good point but there weren't any Jewish terrorists.

Read up on the Arab Revolts in the 20's and 30's, or the Patria incident.
Some keywords: Haganah, Irgun (Irgun Zevai Leumi, IZL, Etzel), Lehi (Stern
Gang), Betar

While most of these organizations became legitimate over time, they sure
didn't start out that way.

Poland's military support of IZL (which Britain called a terrorist
organization) becoming known was possibly a contributing factor to the
timing of Hitler's attack. He might have believed that Poland's support of
a terrorist organization would make it less likely that Great Britain would
declare war based on Germany's attack.

Regards,
--
*Art

neopolaris
July 6th 03, 07:26 AM
"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
...
> > You make a good point but there weren't any Jewish terrorists.
>
> Read up on the Arab Revolts in the 20's and 30's, or the Patria incident.
> Some keywords: Haganah, Irgun (Irgun Zevai Leumi, IZL, Etzel), Lehi
(Stern
> Gang), Betar
>
> While most of these organizations became legitimate over time, they sure
> didn't start out that way.
>
> Poland's military support of IZL (which Britain called a terrorist
> organization) becoming known was possibly a contributing factor to the
> timing of Hitler's attack. He might have believed that Poland's support
of
> a terrorist organization would make it less likely that Great Britain
would
> declare war based on Germany's attack.
>
> Regards,
> --
> *Art
>

Damn man! Uncle UNCLE!! Very interesting to say the least. I can
honestly say I have learned something today. I'm sure the Native Americans
had a similar word for our founders too.

neopolaris

Sunny
July 6th 03, 07:35 AM
How much overclocking or how many brands of video cards do they use.

"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
...
> > You make a good point but there weren't any Jewish terrorists.
>
> Read up on the Arab Revolts in the 20's and 30's, or the Patria incident.
> Some keywords: Haganah, Irgun (Irgun Zevai Leumi, IZL, Etzel), Lehi
(Stern
> Gang), Betar
>
> While most of these organizations became legitimate over time, they sure
> didn't start out that way.
>
> Poland's military support of IZL (which Britain called a terrorist
> organization) becoming known was possibly a contributing factor to the
> timing of Hitler's attack. He might have believed that Poland's support
of
> a terrorist organization would make it less likely that Great Britain
would
> declare war based on Germany's attack.
>
> Regards,
> --
> *Art
>

Proconsul
July 6th 03, 07:50 AM
You're right - it isn't a bit funny......

Unfortunately, I'm not off the mark at all.....:( And, you know it......

PC

"yugsdrawkcab" > wrote in message
a...
| X-No-Archive: Yes
|
| Proconsul wrote:
|
| > Geography has nothing to do with it - accessing the services available
here
| > that aren't available there has everything to do with it......especially
the
| > health care that so many Canadians cross the border to use.....
|
| You're so far off the mark it isn't even funny.
|
| >
| > PC
| >
|

Frode
July 6th 03, 12:38 PM
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Hash: SHA1

Proconsul wrote:
> You need to read more slowly and improve your comprehension - it's rare
> when anyone can so completely miss the point as you have....:)

Yet again you offer no information of value whatsoever. If you're going to
argue that someone is wrong, you need to explain how and back that up with
evidence. All you've done so far is the equivalent of "you're wrong, I'm
right, and that's all there's to it". Needless to say, that doesn't give
you a whole lot of credibility.

- --
Frode

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Rocinante
July 6th 03, 02:01 PM
On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 17:31:06 +0200, Kai Robinson wrote:

> Exactly what is the point of posting this in here? Is this a forum just for
> yanks? Is this forum dealing with the US specifically? No. Please dont post
> this crap in here - there are other NG's for that.
>
> Happy whatever it is day though...
>
>
> in article , SST at
> wrote on 7/4/03 5:28 pm:
>
>> IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776....blah.....blah....blah

ungrateful frog.

--


7/6/2003 9:01:25 AM

Arthur Hagen
July 6th 03, 03:53 PM
"Ed Medlin" > wrote in message
...
> >
> What about the lives of thousands of merchant seamen and sailors lost on
the
> freedom ships? We were building several of them every week all over our
> country. We also escorted them with US Navy vessels. We lost hundreds long
> before Pearl Harbor. Profits?? Don't think so.

Count that against the MUCH larger number of British and Australian (and
other allied) ships who supported the Pacific war effort. Without pay, I
might add.

The liberty ships, or "ugly ducklings", are but a footnote in history -- the
total tonnage of the ships was but a tiny fraction of what, say, the
Norwegians contributed. And yep, they were all built by private sector
shipyards for a profit. Not a single one was built by the military, nor
"given".

Regards,
--
*Art

Proconsul
July 6th 03, 04:28 PM
I shall repeat the very good advice I gave you only once more, i.e., read
more slowly for comprehension. The issue isn't one where I've failed to
explain, but rather you've failed to grasp what was posted.....:)

You need to pay more attention to facts, reason and logic.......

PC

"Frode" > wrote in message
...
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
| Hash: SHA1
|
| Proconsul wrote:
| > You need to read more slowly and improve your comprehension - it's rare
| > when anyone can so completely miss the point as you have....:)
|
| Yet again you offer no information of value whatsoever. If you're going to
| argue that someone is wrong, you need to explain how and back that up with
| evidence. All you've done so far is the equivalent of "you're wrong, I'm
| right, and that's all there's to it". Needless to say, that doesn't give
| you a whole lot of credibility.
|
| - --
| Frode
|
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
| Version: PGP 8.0.2
|
| iQA/AwUBPwgKTeXlGBWTt1afEQJLKQCg4aMfeHbC3DDTiOMRK4iVlj RfQ3EAoMp6
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Frode
July 6th 03, 07:20 PM
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Proconsul wrote:
> I shall repeat the very good advice I gave you only once more, i.e., read
> more slowly for comprehension. The issue isn't one where I've failed to
> explain, but rather you've failed to grasp what was posted.....:)
>
> You need to pay more attention to facts, reason and logic.......

None of which you apparently even grasp the meaning of. You try to pretend
you've actually posted something that refutes the original poster's claim.
You haven't. Your bluff was called and since then all you've done is blow
hot air. That doesn't make your case. It just shows that you have nothing
to substantiate your points of view with apart from, as I stated
previously, "I'm right, you're wrong". I've given you plenty of opportunity
to save yourself by providing some proof of your statements. Turns out
you're just another troll not worth keeping a thread marked for.


- --
Frode

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Proconsul
July 6th 03, 07:58 PM
Read slowly, and begin to comprehend......

The original poster typed up a collection of insupportable claims....I
merely pointed that out. To date, including your endless repetition, no one
has even begun to support those very silly claims....it was the original
poster who still needs to support his contentions....and now, you need to
acknowledge that you still haven't grasped the nature of the
discussion.....:)

Are you beginning to "see" a little more clearly?....:) I don't think
so.....:) You're right in your assertion that the thread isn't worth
continuing - and your "non" name will join others in the happy limbo of the
unread.....:)

PC

"Frode" > wrote in message
...
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
| Hash: SHA1
|
| Proconsul wrote:
| > I shall repeat the very good advice I gave you only once more, i.e.,
read
| > more slowly for comprehension. The issue isn't one where I've failed to
| > explain, but rather you've failed to grasp what was posted.....:)
| >
| > You need to pay more attention to facts, reason and logic.......
|
| None of which you apparently even grasp the meaning of. You try to pretend
| you've actually posted something that refutes the original poster's claim.
| You haven't. Your bluff was called and since then all you've done is blow
| hot air. That doesn't make your case. It just shows that you have nothing
| to substantiate your points of view with apart from, as I stated
| previously, "I'm right, you're wrong". I've given you plenty of
opportunity
| to save yourself by providing some proof of your statements. Turns out
| you're just another troll not worth keeping a thread marked for.
|
|
| - --
| Frode
|
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Frode
July 6th 03, 09:18 PM
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Proconsul wrote:
> Read slowly, and begin to comprehend......
>
> The original poster typed up a collection of insupportable claims....I
> merely pointed that out.

Who's the one refusing to comprehend. Did you notice the car statistics?


- --
Frode



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Lowen B. Holde
July 6th 03, 10:45 PM
"TNSAF" > wrote in message
a...
> > Incorrect. The majority of forces from D-day on were American. The
> > majority of battles won and territory taken on the Western front were
> > by American troops. And don't forget that America was fighting on
> > two fronts. That's not a slight against the Brits, they put up a
> > great fight. The courage and willpower displayed by the English
> > people during the Battle of Britian will always remain one of the
> > great moments in modern human history. But to say America assisted is
> > like calling the Atlantic a "little pond."
>
> But, to completely omit the great sacrifices other nations made, as Daemon
> Rose did (in this same thread) is insulting (btw - I had relatives in
> Britain, Canada and the USA at the time of the war).
>

My intent was not to minimize the sacrifices other nations made, but only to
point out that Kai was in error when he stated that America "assisted" in
defeating the Axis powers. The United States and the Soviet Union played
nearly equal roles in defeating Nazi Germany, with Great Britian next and
still playing an essential role. The United States played the main role in
defeating Japan. I'm not trying to minimize the contributions of Great
Britian or any other nation.

J.Clarke
July 7th 03, 09:49 AM
On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 22:35:25 -0700
Peter Parker > wrote:

> On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 09:36:30 +0000, "J.Clarke" >
> wrote:
>
>
> >Well, now, let's see, the entire armed might of the British Empire
> >was unleashed upon these poor pitiful colonials and all it managed to
> >do was burn down a few buildings in a city with no critical industry
> >that is located so as to be easily susceptible to an amphibious raid,
> >after which that same mighty and proud force failed to make it 30
> >miles to Baltimore. Some victory.
> >
> >And then there was the postwar celebration in New Orleans.
> >
> >
> >--
>
> They were fighting a major war with France so had better things to do
> than bother with you ****ants.

The war with France was over in March, 1814. The "victory" of which you
are so proud, and the subsequent destruction of those same forces on the
road to Baltimore took place in August, 1814. The transit time from
France to DC today by small sailboat is less than a month--the large
warships the British sailed would be considerably faster. That left
about 3 months for them to decide to send the forces from France which
would otherwise be stirring up trouble at home. So you can't hide behind
that excuse for your miserable showing.

--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J.Clarke
July 8th 03, 12:04 AM
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:12:32 -0700
Peter Parker > wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:38:21 +0000, "J.Clarke" >
> wrote:
>
>
> >?? What does the declaration of a truce have to do with who won the
> >war? A truce simply ends the fighting temporarily prior to a
> >negotiation of some sort.
>
> OK, you can go around thinking you won something but most Canadians
> think *they* won. The truth is no one won because a truce was
> negotiated

Find yourself a good dictionary and look up the word "truce". It
doesn't mean what you think it means.

> and it wasn't because the States was kicking anyone's arse.

I see. So if the British were so thoroughly kicking butt why did they
decide to negotiate?

> You boys shouldn't go around thinking other countires need to be set
> free of British rule when they don't want to be.

????

> >In the particular case a treaty was signed which provided a means for
> >establishing the ownership of certain islands off the coast of the US
> >and Canada--I don't know if this constituted a victory for anybody.
> >And if there was a truce prior to the negotiation the British who
> >attempted invasion at New Orleans certainly had not been informed of
> >it.
>
> Yea, it took a long time for news to travel back than. The war was
> already over when that battle at New Orleans took place.

Yes, the war was over, but that is not the point. The point is that
there was no truce prior to the ending of the war.


--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J.Clarke
July 8th 03, 12:20 AM
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 15:21:53 -0700
Peter Parker > wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:49:30 +0000, "J.Clarke" >
> wrote:
>
>
> >The war with France was over in March, 1814. The "victory" of which
> >you are so proud, and the subsequent destruction of those same forces
> >on the road to Baltimore took place in August, 1814. The transit time
> >from France to DC today by small sailboat is less than a month--the
> >large warships the British sailed would be considerably faster. That
> >left about 3 months for them to decide to send the forces from France
> >which would otherwise be stirring up trouble at home. So you can't
> >hide behind that excuse for your miserable showing.
> >
> >--
>
> Hey, this is how you Americans see it.
>
> http://www.multied.com/wars.html
> Some call it the Second War of Independence, for when it ended and the
> US had fought Great Britain to a stalemate, Americas independence was
> assured. Each of the major events in this war are covered.

That was in fact one of the sources I used.

> And what a load of rubbish it is too. You were the aggressors in that
> war and had your eyes on Canada as a part of the U.S.

So?

> http://www.pro.gov.uk/pathways/battles/trafalgar/traf1.htm
> Between 1793 and 1815, following the French Revolution of 1789,
> Britain and various allies fought a protracted war against France.
> From 1795 to 1805 Britain was threatened by invasion and the prospect
> of being controlled by France, which aimed to remodel every conquered
> nation in line with its revolutionary principles.

Sorry to disappoint you but the devil is in the details laddie. The
first Treaty of Paris was signed in May, 1814. This was believed at the
time to be the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The War of 1812 ended in
December of 1814. Napoleon returned from Elba in March, 1815. So for the
final 7 months of the War of 1812 Napoleon was on Elba, where he was
_not_ tying down any British forces except a few guards. So, once
again, you can't hide behind that excuse.



--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

neopolaris
July 8th 03, 03:31 AM
"Peter Parker" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 08:49:30 +0000, "J.Clarke" >
> wrote:

> Hey, this is how you Americans see it.
>
> Some call it the Second War of Independence, for when it ended and the
> US had fought Great Britain to a stalemate, Americas independence was
> assured. Each of the major events in this war are covered.
>
>
> And what a load of rubbish it is too. You were the aggressors in that
> war and had your eyes on Canada as a part of the U.S.
>
AND WE WOULDA GOTTEN IT TOO IF IT WERENT FOR THEM PESKY KIDS!

SCOOOOOBY DOOOOO!!!

J.Clarke
July 8th 03, 11:04 AM
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:26:56 +0100
Dodgy > wrote:

> On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:47:34 -0700, Peter Parker >
> waffled on about something:
>
> >On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 23:20:09 +0000, "J.Clarke" >
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Sorry to disappoint you but the devil is in the details laddie. The
> >>first Treaty of Paris was signed in May, 1814. This was believed at
> >the>time to be the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The War of 1812 ended
> >in>December of 1814. Napoleon returned from Elba in March, 1815. So
> >for the>final 7 months of the War of 1812 Napoleon was on Elba, where
> >he was>_not_ tying down any British forces except a few guards. So,
> >once>again, you can't hide behind that excuse.
> >
> >You are not taking into account the logistics. It's all about
> >logistics, son. You think bringing all those forces back into
> >cohesiveness and shipping them off to NA is a small matter?
> >Face it, if Britain had really wanted to kick your asses they would
> >have.
>
> Hehe, this is so much fun...
>
> Personally when involved in this sort of "discussion" I like to ask
> Americans to name the last war they won on their own, and then shoot
> down anything they say.

Yeah, like the Russians think that the Japanese surrendered because
they were afraid of them rather than being afraid of starfire raining
down from the sky.

What I find interesting is that you think that it's so important for
your tiny little contributions to be recognized.

> :o)
>
> /me returns to the safety of his Anderson shelter.
>
> D0d6y.
> --
> MUSHROOMS ARE THE OPIATE OF THE MOOSES


--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Dodgy
July 8th 03, 01:26 PM
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 23:47:34 -0700, Peter Parker >
waffled on about something:

>On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 23:20:09 +0000, "J.Clarke" >
>wrote:
>
>
>>Sorry to disappoint you but the devil is in the details laddie. The
>>first Treaty of Paris was signed in May, 1814. This was believed at the
>>time to be the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The War of 1812 ended in
>>December of 1814. Napoleon returned from Elba in March, 1815. So for the
>>final 7 months of the War of 1812 Napoleon was on Elba, where he was
>>_not_ tying down any British forces except a few guards. So, once
>>again, you can't hide behind that excuse.
>
>You are not taking into account the logistics. It's all about
>logistics, son. You think bringing all those forces back into
>cohesiveness and shipping them off to NA is a small matter?
>Face it, if Britain had really wanted to kick your asses they would
>have.

Hehe, this is so much fun...

Personally when involved in this sort of "discussion" I like to ask
Americans to name the last war they won on their own, and then shoot
down anything they say.

:o)

/me returns to the safety of his Anderson shelter.

D0d6y.
--
MUSHROOMS ARE THE OPIATE OF THE MOOSES

Dodgy
July 8th 03, 01:33 PM
On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 22:32:20 -0700, Peter Parker >
waffled on about something:

>On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 20:32:09 GMT, "Dave" > wrote:
>
>>...but leave it to a Canadian to take the credit...;-)
>
>Hehe..yea, I still laugh when some git in Ontario was bragging on TV
>about how Bell invented the telephone and was Canadian. Bell was from
>Scotland and I believe he invented the telephone when he was living in
>the U.S. anyway.

LOL!

I bet the yanks we mighty ****ed when the official secrets act let the
vale of secrecy on the worlds first electronic programmable computer
drop too.

Oh, FYI, that travesty of History, U-something-something, about how
the American's cracked the Enigma code, is on UK TV soon.

D0d6y.
--
MUSHROOMS ARE THE OPIATE OF THE MOOSES

Spooky Fodder
July 10th 03, 03:28 AM
"Lowen B. Holde" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "TNSAF" > wrote in message
> a...
> > > Incorrect. The majority of forces from D-day on were American. The
> > > majority of battles won and territory taken on the Western front were
> > > by American troops. And don't forget that America was fighting on
> > > two fronts. That's not a slight against the Brits, they put up a
> > > great fight. The courage and willpower displayed by the English
> > > people during the Battle of Britian will always remain one of the
> > > great moments in modern human history. But to say America assisted is
> > > like calling the Atlantic a "little pond."
> >
> > But, to completely omit the great sacrifices other nations made, as
Daemon
> > Rose did (in this same thread) is insulting (btw - I had relatives in
> > Britain, Canada and the USA at the time of the war).
> >
>
> My intent was not to minimize the sacrifices other nations made, but only
to
> point out that Kai was in error when he stated that America "assisted" in
> defeating the Axis powers. The United States and the Soviet Union played
> nearly equal roles in defeating Nazi Germany, with Great Britian next and
> still playing an essential role. The United States played the main role
in
> defeating Japan. I'm not trying to minimize the contributions of Great
> Britian or any other nation.
>
>

As an intresting side note. The per capita death rate suffered by the
Canadians servicemen was the highest amongst all the allies in WWII (most of
which were volunteers btw). The highest total deaths, including civillians,
were incurred by the Russians at 20 plus million!!

David Maynard
July 10th 03, 08:42 AM
Thomas Andersson wrote:
> neopolaris wrote:
>
>
>>Bite me. I'm just having some fun. If they hate "US" there is
>>nothing anyone can do. It's all predisposed. It's liberal crybabies
>>like you that give this great nation a black eye all the damned time
>>anyways.
>
>
> Must we all fully embrace the 'american way' and love this 'great nation'?

No. And you're at liberty to implement whatever screwball system you
like in your own country as long as it's peaceful.

> How come that if you don't fully agree you're badged as a america hater?

You're paranoid.

> Lack of love is not the same as hate, neither is lack of interest in the
> matter.
> And what's with the "Shut up becouse I'm stronger and got military training"
> agianst those who dissagree? Not very mature is it?

We get ****ed when attacked and have the means to express it.

David Maynard
July 10th 03, 08:57 AM
Arthur Hagen wrote:
> "SST" > wrote in message
> t...
>
>>Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in history,
>
>
> Not according to the UN. I believe it's number 5 or 6 on the list.
>

I don't place a lot of stock in the opinions of an organization that
thinks it's just peachy keen to have Libya and Cuba heading the human
rights commission.

David Maynard
July 10th 03, 09:40 AM
Dave wrote:
> "jhgd" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 15:34:03 -0700, "OldfartJC" > wrote:
>>
>>-I didn't realize you Canadians in Alberta hated us that much. My friends
>>in
>>-Edmonton always like to come to the U.S. to buy stuff at much cheaper
>>prices
>>-than they can in Canada.
>
>
> Yep, even with the exchange rate still in favor of the American dollar,
> stuff still costs more up there...
>
> (barely comprehensible retort snipped)
>
> If you're going to post an argument not in your native tongue, the least you
> could do is learn it a bit better...
>
>
>>Must be all your liberal laws that causes (with all the injustice taht
>>fly-bly from the south, ( just like resolution from kyoto. To reduce the
>>pollution.)-> where do you think thai **** goes to the north. You should
>>show some respet to others.
>
>
> Europe had just as much to do with the lack of resolution of the Kyoto
> Protocols as we did. Either side wanted to blame the other and assign
> lopsided accountabilities. Nobody was getting anywhere, so we walked away
> from the table. And European press pinned it all on America, naturally. And
> look at all the people who bought it. I suspect you are underinformed about
> this one. Of course, it may very well be that NEITHER SIDE REALLY WANTED TO
> RESOLVE THINGS AND BIG INDUSTRY WANTED TO PRESERVE THE STATUS QUO, and that,
> my friend, is why things are the way they are...

Kyoto was always more about economics than 'global warming' with all of
the burden placed squarely on the U.S. as everyone else has an 'out'. To
give but two examples, China is flat exempted and Germany gets automatic
'compliance' by updating the wrecked East German industrial base, which
is a part of their plan regardless of any 'environmental impact'.

Contrary to the popular propaganda, the U.S. is already more efficient
and less polluting, per unit of energy and products produced, than the
rest of the world.

On the 'warming' side of the equation, during the period following the
original Kyoto treaty proposal, the U.N. cut by half, or more, their
'warming' estimates and that alone was many times more significant than
any 'predicted improvement' expected from the treaty. In fact,
environmental 'experts' admit that the practices dictated by the treaty
would have a negligible, if any, impact on warming even if fully
implemented.

In other words, it's a bloody expensive nothing.

David Maynard
July 10th 03, 10:37 AM
chrismm wrote:
> It is deserved, the fact that Americans cant see why proves the point
> totally.

Spoken like a true aristocratic snob. That's one reason we had a
revolution over here a couple hundred years ago.

It isn't a matter that Americans can't 'see' your attitude regarding the
"rejects from other countries." It's that we 'reject' your notion.

> America claims to be a Christian country, yet it behaves in a very
> unchristian way (death sentences, wars etc), that is why Muslims from the
> middle east hate you so.

The radical fundamentalist Muslim element thinks the whole world should
be ruled by muslim religious law, as interpreted by them. They hate us
because we're a secular government, embracing all religions, and the
biggest target but, take cheer, yours is on the list too.

> You cant even follow the rules that you claim to
> hold so dear !!

We have lofty ideals and sometimes fall short of fully realizing each
and every one 100% of the time. That's the problem with lofty ideals,
they aren't easy, but we believe that striving for a high target is
better than settling for a lower one.

> You use huge amounts of the earths resources

That's because we also produce a huge amounts of product.

> and when other
> countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any agreement to
> reduce that pollution.

We already DID 'reduce pollution', continue to do so without punitive
'treaties', and would appreciate the rest of the world catching up
without trying to destroy our economy in the process.

> You invade other countries in violation of
> international will

Just who elected this "international will" and how did 'it' acquire
righteous omniscience?

Or do you mean the U.N.? To which Iraq had been "in violation of
international will" for over 12 years.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool 'em for 12
years and you're dealing with the U.N..

> (Britain is no better and I wont be voting for the
> current UK government)

Looking for another Chamberlain to declare 'peace in your time' while
the enemy prepares to attack right before your eyes?

>.. need i go on ?


> "Proconsul" > wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>>I don't disagree with the notion that many who came from other places
>>contributed to the success of the United States - that's the "melting pot"
>>theory that made the USA great! I am the grandson of immigrants - I value
>>them more than you can imagine...!
>>
>>The United States is unique among all the nations of the world because it
>
> is
>
>>the only place that one could rise above one's class. Millions of
>
> immigrants
>
>>did so, and built a great nation. All the "anti" claptrap posted herein is
>>undeserved, untrue and disgraceful......
>>
>>PC
>>
>>"chrismm" > wrote in message
.. .
>>| Really ? Put it this way many things are invented in the US that is
>
> true,
>
>>| however if you go to the patent office and look you will see that the
>>people
>>| who actually invented the things were in fact NOT american but people
>
> from
>
>>| foreign countries who came to the US because thats where the money is.
>
> If
>
>>| america had no gold or oil it would not be the force it is.
>>| As it is its a wonderful country that is wasted on the people who
>
> invaded
>
>>| it, people who were rejects from other countries or people who were
>
> force
>
>>to
>>| live there by those said reject people.
>>| "Proconsul" > wrote in message
>>| news:[email protected]
>>| > Total nonsense......you can't support one word of this extraordinary
>>| > thesis.....:)
>>| >
>>| > PC

David Maynard
July 10th 03, 10:58 AM
neopolaris wrote:
> "chrismm" > wrote in message
> ...

<snip>

>
>>countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any agreement
>
> to
>
>>reduce that pollution.
>
>
> We had very good reasons for NOT signing that and most were proud that GW
> stuck to his guns. We were being bullied for no good reason. Any country
> in that situation would've done the same with a newly elected leader. I
> didn't give us a license to pollute more...sheeese.
>

All Bush did was tell 'em the unvarnished truth: that the treaty, as
written, didn't have a rat's chance in hell of ever passing the Senate,
and never did. But they'd rather 'feel good' with someone like Clinton
blowing smoke up their arses than hear the truth of it.

David Maynard
July 11th 03, 12:56 AM
Arthur Hagen wrote:
> "David Maynard" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Arthur Hagen wrote:
>>
>>>"SST" > wrote in message
t...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well since the US is the most technologically advance nation in history,
>>>
>>>
>>>Not according to the UN. I believe it's number 5 or 6 on the list.
>>>
>>
>>I don't place a lot of stock in the opinions of an organization that
>>thinks it's just peachy keen to have Libya and Cuba heading the human
>>rights commission.
>
>
> Animal Farm, anyone?
>
> The whole point of how UN is organized is to *ensure* that all countries
> have a fair say, even if they are disliked by the most powerful states.

I didn't say anything about muzzling them. I complained about putting
notorious human rights violators in charge of human rights.

> A
> cornerstone of democracy is that everyone has an inalienable right to be
> heard, a right to vote and a right to be voted for[1].

Being "heard" is not the same as being put in charge and democracy also
depends on the voter not being an idiot voting for criminals, or other
unsavory characters.

> You can only judge other countries by *your* standards and values, which
> might not be the same as those of others, who may find your country as
> objectionable, if not more so, than Libya and Cuba. Does that mean that
> your country should be excluded too, because someone else dislikes them?
> Or do the values of some countries carry with them the right to be imposed
> on others, while other views should be suppressed?

Again, I said nothing about "suppressing" anyone but I got news for you,
and forgive my bluntness, but the notion you seem to be promulgating,
that anyone's 'standards' are just as good as anyone else's, is ka-ka.

> That's suppression,
> which is one of the things the UN was set up to prevent.

There was no such notion in the U.N.'s creation. It was created by the
allies during W.W.II and I assure you there was not one whit of concern
expressed or given for providing Nazis, or any other oppressive regime,
a 'fair chance' to 'rule' or 'head' anything, much less "ensure" it.

>
> [1]: There are countries where these rights are not inalienable. These
> countries are not democracies.

Good reason to not put them in charge of human rights.

>
> Regards,

GMAN
July 11th 03, 04:30 AM
In article >, "LockheartXP" > wrote:
>I like America, I love the american way. But they gotta stop acting like
>they wanna control the whole world !!! I'm still waiting to hear from those
>weapons of mass destruction btw.....
>They should start respecting others too.
>

We would if your ****ing countries would quit asking for handouts.

GMAN
July 11th 03, 05:14 AM
In article >, "Andy Cunningham" > wrote:
>Neither of those were invented by the USA. Though french fries were.
>
>"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message ...
>>
>> There probably wouldn't even be an internet or computers if it weren't for
>> the United States. There probably wouldn't be a helluva lotta things.
>>
There is no one inventor of the Internet. The Internet was created in the
1960s as a huge network linking big university and government computers. The
science behind the Internet was invented during the Cold War, when the United
States was in competition against Russia for weapons and technology. So the
Internet is actually pretty old--around forty years. In fact, email has been
around since 1972! But it wasn't until 1989 that Tim Berners-Lee, a scientist
at the European Laboratory for Particle Physics in Geneva, proposed the World
Wide Web.
http://www.yahooligans.com/content/ask_earl/20000921.html
http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/brief.shtml
>> If you dislike 'US" tough. We are making the world a better place-one
>> sandbox and rice paddy at a time.
>>
>> PS: Yo fatass KAI. I have a temper too. Goes well with my formal Army
>> training. In short, shut your piehole.
>>
>> neopolaris
>> ex-grunt
>> E-3-1
>>
>>
>
>

luinzi
July 11th 03, 12:21 PM
> That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
> how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
>
> Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
> submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
> because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
> wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.

I obviously have a better understanding of how the US government works than
you think :)

My comments were directed not as to why didn't Clinton do it but as to the
real reason behind why Bush did it in the manner he did. Your rational
appears to be deeply defensive of what has actually transpired.

Your comments ooze with contorted US style media properganda. Albeit there
is some truth in these comment however it does not hide the fact that the US
government has always placed its own interests at heart in terms of US
foreign policy, from Iraq to Kyoto there have always been alterior motives.
Denial of this in anyway is without doubt testimoiny to the mind bending
capabilities of the US media.

David appart form the sarcastic remarks what country/State do you live in?


"David Maynard" > wrote in message
...
> luinzi wrote:
> > These comments seem to be the product of someone who has been deeply
> > influenced by the US media and US cultural imperialism???
>
> That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
> how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
>
> Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
> submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
> because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
> wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
>
> > Where are you from David?
>
> Originally? My mother's womb, but I've moved around since then.
>
>
> > "David Maynard" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>neopolaris wrote:
> >>
> >>>"chrismm" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any
> >>>
> > agreement
> >
> >>>to
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>reduce that pollution.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>We had very good reasons for NOT signing that and most were proud that
> >>
> > GW
> >
> >>>stuck to his guns. We were being bullied for no good reason. Any
> >>
> > country
> >
> >>>in that situation would've done the same with a newly elected leader.
I
> >>>didn't give us a license to pollute more...sheeese.
> >>>
> >>
> >>All Bush did was tell 'em the unvarnished truth: that the treaty, as
> >>written, didn't have a rat's chance in hell of ever passing the Senate,
> >>and never did. But they'd rather 'feel good' with someone like Clinton
> >>blowing smoke up their arses than hear the truth of it.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>

David Maynard
July 12th 03, 06:28 AM
luinzi wrote:
>>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
>>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
>>
>>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
>>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
>>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
>>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
>
>
> I obviously have a better understanding of how the US government works than
> you think :)

Since you haven't expressed one single tidbit of what you think you know
about it there isn't anything obvious at all except for your command of
clichés.

>
> My comments were directed not as to why didn't Clinton do it but as to the
> real reason behind why Bush did it in the manner he did.

Your comment wasn't directed at anything with respect to the topic but
was simply a pre programmed "U.S. style media" pull string doll response
and even here in your 'explanation' there is no meaning as you use
nothing but 'it' and 'the manner' without any substance as to what you
perceive 'it' and 'the manner' to be. Not to mention that if my original
message weren't still pasted in down there no one would even be able to
tell by your comments what the topic IS.

> Your rational
> appears to be deeply defensive of what has actually transpired.

What 'rationale'? That "it wouldn't pass" is why Clinton didn't submit
it to the Senate?

I have no idea what makes you think there's anything 'defensive' in my
stating the obvious.

> Your comments ooze with contorted US style media properganda.

Second pull string response. Care to define what "U.S. style media" is?
Hint: it's a trick question as no one who watches it, reads it, listens
to it, produces, distributes, analyzes, or participates in it can seem
to agree. And even if, by some miracle, you managed the impossible you
would still have no idea what portion of it any particular individual
was regularly exposed to, nor what other sources they use, or what, if
any, of it they believed.

> Albeit there
> is some truth in these comment

You speak but say nothing. How about making some actually meaningful
statement of what you think is 'truth' and what you think is different
with respect to the topic?

> however it does not hide the fact that the US
> government has always placed its own interests at heart in terms of US
> foreign policy,

News flash: all countries do; and they'd be fools to do things *against*
their "own interests." The trick comes in how countries interpret their
"own interests." Like if it's acquisition of territory by armed invasion
or in promulgating democracy, mutual security, free trade, etc.

> from Iraq to Kyoto there have always been alterior motives.

Yes, Saddam and the Kyoto participants had ulterior motives.

> Denial of this in anyway is without doubt testimoiny to the mind bending
> capabilities of the US media.

I don't suppose it's ever dawned on you that someone can have an opinion
different than yours without it necessarily being due to "the U.S.
media." Good forbid anyone suggest it might even be correct.

I'm curious; Just how did whatever you use convince you of it's
omniscient infallibility?

> David appart form the sarcastic remarks what country/State do you live in?

I rather thought it was humorous but, no matter. I responded that way
because it's irrelevant as you are attempting to employ the poison well
logic fallacy to avoid dealing with the substance of the topic itself.

> "David Maynard" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>luinzi wrote:
>>
>>>These comments seem to be the product of someone who has been deeply
>>>influenced by the US media and US cultural imperialism???
>>
>>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
>>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
>>
>>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
>>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
>>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
>>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
>>
>>
>>>Where are you from David?
>>
>>Originally? My mother's womb, but I've moved around since then.
>>
>>
>>
>>>"David Maynard" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>neopolaris wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"chrismm" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>>>countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any
>>>>>
>>>agreement
>>>
>>>
>>>>>to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>reduce that pollution.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>We had very good reasons for NOT signing that and most were proud that
>>>>
>>>GW
>>>
>>>
>>>>>stuck to his guns. We were being bullied for no good reason. Any
>>>>
>>>country
>>>
>>>
>>>>>in that situation would've done the same with a newly elected leader.
>>>>
> I
>
>>>>>didn't give us a license to pollute more...sheeese.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>All Bush did was tell 'em the unvarnished truth: that the treaty, as
>>>>written, didn't have a rat's chance in hell of ever passing the Senate,
>>>>and never did. But they'd rather 'feel good' with someone like Clinton
>>>>blowing smoke up their arses than hear the truth of it.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

noise
July 12th 03, 10:25 PM
The computer as we know it was really invented during WWII in
England, primarilly under the direction of Alan Turing.
This means all-electronic, no moving parts, with the type of
architecture (von Neumann) most computers now use (buss-based).
However, some years before, a fellow in Germany (don't recall the
name) built some incomplete prototypes of his design for a machine
fitting our definition of a computer using electro-mechanical
relays used in telephone exchanges of the day. His design is
said to have been practical and would have worked.

Both of these derived from the work of all sorts of pioneers,
including England's Charles Babbage (the Difference Engine, a mech-
anical calculator, which had input, output, registers [fits a def-
inition of memory] and processing - again, a working model was
built but his full design never was), Frank(?) Boole (Irish
mathematician who came up with binary numbers and mathematics,
also logic gates and binary maths, hence 'Boolean' numbers & theory),
Ada what's-her-name after whom Ada the programming language as used
by US. DoD (credited with writing the first program for a pro-
grammable machine, early 19th century[?]), whoever that guy was in
the British industrial revolution late 18th cen. who came up with
the punched-card reader and applied it to operate "programmable"
weaving looms, giving us punched cards for many years, and
others. Primarilly, it was the Brits in the WWII though. If you
read a book called "Ultra Goes to War", a fair bit is printed about
the developement of Turing's machine, which was used for breaking
German radio cyphers (Ultra was the codename for this intelligence,
and it focused on breaking the output of the Enigma cypher machine).
The Germans towards the end of the war were developing a system
called Geheimschreiber (sp?) which was basically a radio-transmitted
digital encoding of machine cyphers like Enigma... very much like
modern digital communications. At the time the book came out, the
British hadn't yet declassified the decrypts relating to this de-
vice, however the Turing machine was definitely the basis for a
digital computer built to receive and decipher these transmissions.
(I guess that work was still too close to current technology in
decoding digital transmissions. THe book is full of other decrypts,
eventually declassified in the 1970's).

It and its descendants were the first true electronic digital
computers. Parallel work occurred in the USA at the time, but
drew most of its technical foundation from Bletchley Park (where
the Ultra org. and Turing were based). Turing's machine (I forget
it's name... not one of the Robinsons, something else) was built
at the Dollis Hill Telephone Works. There's an interesting section
about it in this book, which was published in the late 70's. Some
film I've seen about it shows the "Wrens" preparing punched cards
and paper tape (you computer old-timers will remember that), and
the machines actually were pretty quick for the first of the kind.
The tape streamed through fast enough to set up a big standing wave,
and was processed at something like 5000 characters per second.

It was US industry that turned computer technology into a commer-
cial enterprise, certainly. ARPAnet, which is the pre-internet
network mentioned this thread, was designed as a network which
could withstand large sections of itself being suddenly destroyed
in a nuclear war. You mention Berhners-Lee, Vint Cert is (I think)
the man who came up with the TCP/IP protocol, which is now some
decades old itself. (ARPA = Advanced Research Projects Admin.)

--
To reply remove spamblock and replace with iinet
"GMAN" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Andy Cunningham"
> wrote:
> >Neither of those were invented by the USA. Though french fries were.
> >
> >"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
...
> >>
> >> There probably wouldn't even be an internet or computers if it weren't
for
> >> the United States. There probably wouldn't be a helluva lotta things.
> >>
> There is no one inventor of the Internet. The Internet was created in the
> 1960s as a huge network linking big university and government computers.
The
> science behind the Internet was invented during the Cold War, when the
United
> States was in competition against Russia for weapons and technology. So
the
> Internet is actually pretty old--around forty years. In fact, email has
been
> around since 1972! But it wasn't until 1989 that Tim Berners-Lee, a
scientist
> at the European Laboratory for Particle Physics in Geneva, proposed the
World
> Wide Web.
>

Anybody®
July 12th 03, 11:29 PM
enough of your noise now, ~PLONK~
thanks
"noise" > wrote in message
. au...
> The computer as we know it was really invented during WWII in
> England, primarilly under the direction of Alan Turing.
> This means all-electronic, no moving parts, with the type of
> architecture (von Neumann) most computers now use (buss-based).
> However, some years before, a fellow in Germany (don't recall the
> name) built some incomplete prototypes of his design for a machine
> fitting our definition of a computer using electro-mechanical
> relays used in telephone exchanges of the day. His design is
> said to have been practical and would have worked.
>
> Both of these derived from the work of all sorts of pioneers,
> including England's Charles Babbage (the Difference Engine, a mech-
> anical calculator, which had input, output, registers [fits a def-
> inition of memory] and processing - again, a working model was
> built but his full design never was), Frank(?) Boole (Irish
> mathematician who came up with binary numbers and mathematics,
> also logic gates and binary maths, hence 'Boolean' numbers & theory),
> Ada what's-her-name after whom Ada the programming language as used
> by US. DoD (credited with writing the first program for a pro-
> grammable machine, early 19th century[?]), whoever that guy was in
> the British industrial revolution late 18th cen. who came up with
> the punched-card reader and applied it to operate "programmable"
> weaving looms, giving us punched cards for many years, and
> others. Primarilly, it was the Brits in the WWII though. If you
> read a book called "Ultra Goes to War", a fair bit is printed about
> the developement of Turing's machine, which was used for breaking
> German radio cyphers (Ultra was the codename for this intelligence,
> and it focused on breaking the output of the Enigma cypher machine).
> The Germans towards the end of the war were developing a system
> called Geheimschreiber (sp?) which was basically a radio-transmitted
> digital encoding of machine cyphers like Enigma... very much like
> modern digital communications. At the time the book came out, the
> British hadn't yet declassified the decrypts relating to this de-
> vice, however the Turing machine was definitely the basis for a
> digital computer built to receive and decipher these transmissions.
> (I guess that work was still too close to current technology in
> decoding digital transmissions. THe book is full of other decrypts,
> eventually declassified in the 1970's).
>
> It and its descendants were the first true electronic digital
> computers. Parallel work occurred in the USA at the time, but
> drew most of its technical foundation from Bletchley Park (where
> the Ultra org. and Turing were based). Turing's machine (I forget
> it's name... not one of the Robinsons, something else) was built
> at the Dollis Hill Telephone Works. There's an interesting section
> about it in this book, which was published in the late 70's. Some
> film I've seen about it shows the "Wrens" preparing punched cards
> and paper tape (you computer old-timers will remember that), and
> the machines actually were pretty quick for the first of the kind.
> The tape streamed through fast enough to set up a big standing wave,
> and was processed at something like 5000 characters per second.
>
> It was US industry that turned computer technology into a commer-
> cial enterprise, certainly. ARPAnet, which is the pre-internet
> network mentioned this thread, was designed as a network which
> could withstand large sections of itself being suddenly destroyed
> in a nuclear war. You mention Berhners-Lee, Vint Cert is (I think)
> the man who came up with the TCP/IP protocol, which is now some
> decades old itself. (ARPA = Advanced Research Projects Admin.)
>
> --
> To reply remove spamblock and replace with iinet
> "GMAN" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, "Andy Cunningham"
> > wrote:
> > >Neither of those were invented by the USA. Though french fries were.
> > >
> > >"neopolaris" <.> wrote in message
> ...
> > >>
> > >> There probably wouldn't even be an internet or computers if it
weren't
> for
> > >> the United States. There probably wouldn't be a helluva lotta
things.
> > >>
> > There is no one inventor of the Internet. The Internet was created in
the
> > 1960s as a huge network linking big university and government computers.
> The
> > science behind the Internet was invented during the Cold War, when the
> United
> > States was in competition against Russia for weapons and technology. So
> the
> > Internet is actually pretty old--around forty years. In fact, email has
> been
> > around since 1972! But it wasn't until 1989 that Tim Berners-Lee, a
> scientist
> > at the European Laboratory for Particle Physics in Geneva, proposed the
> World
> > Wide Web.
> >
>
>

luinzi
July 14th 03, 05:16 PM
Well looks like I'm on the defensive - just like anyone else that dare
criticise anything about the US

>I'm curious; Just how did whatever you use convince you of it's
>omniscient infallibility?

an MA in cultural and Media studies specialising in 'American Cultural
Imperialism since the 1960's'. - Hence my so called 'pre programmed
response' as you put it. But the infalibility of my argument was backed up
by your comment stating that "all countries do; and they'd be fools to do
things *against* their "own interests." ", as I was making reference to
American Foreign Policy hgaving alterior motives.

> I don't suppose it's ever dawned on you that someone can have an
opinion
> different than yours without it necessarily being due to "the U.S.
> media." Good forbid anyone suggest it might even be correct.

My previous post openly admitted that 'Albeit there is some truth in these
comments' insinuating that I partly agreed with what is said in the media. I
feel you impulsively responded with that comment.

> News flash: all countries do; and they'd be fools to do things
*against*
> their "own interests." The trick comes in how countries interpret
their
> "own interests." Like if it's acquisition of territory by armed
invasion
> or in promulgating democracy, mutual security, free trade, etc.

Not always. The British Prime Minister Mr Blair has marred his name amongst
his own people by supporting the US against Saddam Hussein and has
consequently isolated Britain from its EU counterparts. It was always
acknowledged that Britain would never see any significant gain (politically,
ecomically, socially, or in terms of security) from the Iraqi invasion.
Gerheart Schroder and Jacques Chirac have put a huge strain on the EU
exports to the US by not backing war on Iraq. I think there is a more long
term altruistic reasons for such actions by world leaders rather than
propergating their own interests.

> Second pull string response. Care to define what "U.S. style media"
is?
> Hint: it's a trick question as no one who watches it, reads it,
listens
> to it, produces, distributes, analyzes, or participates in it can seem
> to agree. And even if, by some miracle, you managed the impossible you
> would still have no idea what portion of it any particular individual
> was regularly exposed to, nor what other sources they use, or what, if
> any, of it they believed.

Pull string response?? Are you insinuating I'm a puppet??? I certainly do
care to define what I meant by US style media - there is a big descrepency
in MBC, CNN and deep southern state redneck radio stations to say Al
Jazeera, TF1, Euronews and the BBC in terms of their standpoint.

You're easily provocated into attacking others points of view the same way
any aggressor would who attempts top impose his perogative on others.....
does this sound familiar??

Sadly it appears that we are loosing the focus of this debate and we have
entered the realms of merely attacking each other's posts. I have nothing
further to state on this matter but feel free to post more
..................... but ............ I won't respond.

seeya...

"David Maynard" > wrote in message
...
> luinzi wrote:
> >>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
> >>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
> >>
> >>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
> >>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
> >>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
> >>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
> >
> >
> > I obviously have a better understanding of how the US government works
than
> > you think :)
>
> Since you haven't expressed one single tidbit of what you think you know
> about it there isn't anything obvious at all except for your command of
> clichés.
>
> >
> > My comments were directed not as to why didn't Clinton do it but as to
the
> > real reason behind why Bush did it in the manner he did.
>
> Your comment wasn't directed at anything with respect to the topic but
> was simply a pre programmed "U.S. style media" pull string doll response
> and even here in your 'explanation' there is no meaning as you use
> nothing but 'it' and 'the manner' without any substance as to what you
> perceive 'it' and 'the manner' to be. Not to mention that if my original
> message weren't still pasted in down there no one would even be able to
> tell by your comments what the topic IS.
>
> > Your rational
> > appears to be deeply defensive of what has actually transpired.
>
> What 'rationale'? That "it wouldn't pass" is why Clinton didn't submit
> it to the Senate?
>
> I have no idea what makes you think there's anything 'defensive' in my
> stating the obvious.
>
> > Your comments ooze with contorted US style media properganda.
>
> Second pull string response. Care to define what "U.S. style media" is?
> Hint: it's a trick question as no one who watches it, reads it, listens
> to it, produces, distributes, analyzes, or participates in it can seem
> to agree. And even if, by some miracle, you managed the impossible you
> would still have no idea what portion of it any particular individual
> was regularly exposed to, nor what other sources they use, or what, if
> any, of it they believed.
>
> > Albeit there
> > is some truth in these comment
>
> You speak but say nothing. How about making some actually meaningful
> statement of what you think is 'truth' and what you think is different
> with respect to the topic?
>
> > however it does not hide the fact that the US
> > government has always placed its own interests at heart in terms of US
> > foreign policy,
>
> News flash: all countries do; and they'd be fools to do things *against*
> their "own interests." The trick comes in how countries interpret their
> "own interests." Like if it's acquisition of territory by armed invasion
> or in promulgating democracy, mutual security, free trade, etc.
>
> > from Iraq to Kyoto there have always been alterior motives.
>
> Yes, Saddam and the Kyoto participants had ulterior motives.
>
> > Denial of this in anyway is without doubt testimoiny to the mind bending
> > capabilities of the US media.
>
> I don't suppose it's ever dawned on you that someone can have an opinion
> different than yours without it necessarily being due to "the U.S.
> media." Good forbid anyone suggest it might even be correct.
>
> I'm curious; Just how did whatever you use convince you of it's
> omniscient infallibility?
>
> > David appart form the sarcastic remarks what country/State do you live
in?
>
> I rather thought it was humorous but, no matter. I responded that way
> because it's irrelevant as you are attempting to employ the poison well
> logic fallacy to avoid dealing with the substance of the topic itself.
>
> > "David Maynard" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>luinzi wrote:
> >>
> >>>These comments seem to be the product of someone who has been deeply
> >>>influenced by the US media and US cultural imperialism???
> >>
> >>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
> >>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
> >>
> >>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
> >>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
> >>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
> >>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Where are you from David?
> >>
> >>Originally? My mother's womb, but I've moved around since then.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>"David Maynard" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>neopolaris wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>"chrismm" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>>
> >>>><snip>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any
> >>>>>
> >>>agreement
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>to
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>reduce that pollution.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>We had very good reasons for NOT signing that and most were proud
that
> >>>>
> >>>GW
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>stuck to his guns. We were being bullied for no good reason. Any
> >>>>
> >>>country
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>in that situation would've done the same with a newly elected leader.
> >>>>
> > I
> >
> >>>>>didn't give us a license to pollute more...sheeese.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>All Bush did was tell 'em the unvarnished truth: that the treaty, as
> >>>>written, didn't have a rat's chance in hell of ever passing the
Senate,
> >>>>and never did. But they'd rather 'feel good' with someone like Clinton
> >>>>blowing smoke up their arses than hear the truth of it.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

David Maynard
July 16th 03, 06:04 AM
luinzi wrote:
> Well looks like I'm on the defensive - just like anyone else that dare
> criticise anything about the US

In the first place, you didn't make a 'criticism'; you tossed out a generic,
unexplained and unsupported, 'epithet' of some sort and have yet to explain what
it had to do with the point I had made.

But, that's an interesting 'complaint'. You seem to think the U.S. is some kind
of epithet pin cushion you can stick insult needles in whenever the fancy
strikes you and that it's 'unfair' anyone even so much as question it.

> >I'm curious; Just how did whatever you use convince you of it's
> >omniscient infallibility?
>
> an MA in cultural and Media studies specialising in 'American Cultural
> Imperialism since the 1960's'. - Hence my so called 'pre programmed
> response' as you put it.

Well, yes. I'd say 'specializing' in it does a good job of programming although
I'm not sure why one would want to academically 'specialize' in an opinionated
conclusion.

> But the infalibility of my argument was backed up
> by your comment stating that "all countries do; and they'd be fools to do
> things *against* their "own interests." ", as I was making reference to
> American Foreign Policy hgaving alterior motives.

My comment about country's motives had nothing to do with media 'imperialism'.
Rather it derives from human psychology as countries, almost without exception,
are populated and run by humans.

Nice try at twisting my comment but I specifically made it at the point where
you stated the "US government has always placed its own interests at heart" and
NOT where you leveled the claim of "alterior" motives as the two are NOT the
same; which I explained in "The trick comes in how countries interpret their
'own interests'."


> > I don't suppose it's ever dawned on you that someone can have an
> opinion
> > different than yours without it necessarily being due to "the U.S.
> > media." Good forbid anyone suggest it might even be correct.
>
> My previous post openly admitted that 'Albeit there is some truth in these
> comments' insinuating that I partly agreed with what is said in the media. I
> feel you impulsively responded with that comment.

Your 'admission' is of no value because you refuse to say anything specific. You
don't say what you think is true, different, or anything else. Not to mention
that your 'admission' was in response to my comments, not the media. And I
haven't MADE any media comments as you have never provided anything to discuss
regarding it other than some generic unspecified accusation, I presume, of
'imperialism'. My effort has been in trying to get you to explain what you mean
and why.

> > News flash: all countries do; and they'd be fools to do things
> *against*
> > their "own interests." The trick comes in how countries interpret
> their
> > "own interests." Like if it's acquisition of territory by armed
> invasion
> > or in promulgating democracy, mutual security, free trade, etc.
>
> Not always. The British Prime Minister Mr Blair has marred his name amongst
> his own people by supporting the US against Saddam Hussein and has
> consequently isolated Britain from its EU counterparts. It was always
> acknowledged that Britain would never see any significant gain (politically,
> ecomically, socially, or in terms of security) from the Iraqi invasion.

Acknowledged by WHO? I'd lay money on the table that Blair doesn't agree.

You can't assign YOUR 'opinion' to Blair and then claim that's HIS 'motive'.

> Gerheart Schroder and Jacques Chirac have put a huge strain on the EU
> exports to the US by not backing war on Iraq.

Besides that being a simplistic and limited observation, ignoring a host of
possible motives other than simply what effect something has on E.U. exports,
end results do not prove motives. I.E. Humans are fallible and things do not
always turn out as intended. Some people might suggest it rarely does.

> I think there is a more long
> term altruistic reasons for such actions by world leaders rather than
> propergating their own interests.

You obviously mean "world leaders" except, of course, for U.S. leaders as you've
claimed "there have always been alterior motives."

Must be something in the water, eh?

I suggest you're as ego centric about 'your' leaders as you claim folks in the
U.S. are; quite willing to assign 'altruistic' motives to 'yours' while
asserting that the U.S. is always 'bad'.

Btw, 'altruism', at least in the manner the term is often used, and
"self-interest" are not mutually exclusive. Some wield 'altruism' as a badge of
'moral superiority' over others, a "self-interest." Others simply 'feel good' by
doing 'good deeds', but it's in your "self-interest" to 'feel good' about
yourself, isn't it?

> > Second pull string response. Care to define what "U.S. style media"
> is?
> > Hint: it's a trick question as no one who watches it, reads it,
> listens
> > to it, produces, distributes, analyzes, or participates in it can seem
> > to agree. And even if, by some miracle, you managed the impossible you
> > would still have no idea what portion of it any particular individual
> > was regularly exposed to, nor what other sources they use, or what, if
> > any, of it they believed.
>
> Pull string response?? Are you insinuating I'm a puppet???

No. Maybe you don't know what I mean by a pull string doll. They're an old type
of 'talking' doll that spits out a preprogrammed phrase when you pull the string
on the back (string, when pulled, winds spring motor that runs the internal
mechanism for one phrase): like "U.S. Media Imperialism. Of course, no matter
what you say, or how hard you try to get the doll to 'explain' anything, you
just get the same phrases over and over; like "U.S. Media Imperialism."

> I certainly do
> care to define what I meant by US style media - there is a big descrepency
> in MBC, CNN and deep southern state redneck radio stations to say Al
> Jazeera, TF1, Euronews and the BBC in terms of their standpoint.

Saying different media are different isn't a definition of anything.

Btw, if that characterization, up there, of the U.S. media is an accurate
representation of your understanding of it then you don't understand it.

> You're easily provocated into attacking others points of view the same way
> any aggressor would who attempts top impose his perogative on others.....
> does this sound familiar??

How the heck could I have attacked your 'point of view' when you haven't
presented one? Other than some knee jerk comment that I must be the 'victim' of
"U.S. media imperialism" that you have YET to explain what you mean by it.

>
> Sadly it appears that we are loosing the focus of this debate and we have
> entered the realms of merely attacking each other's posts. I have nothing
> further to state on this matter but feel free to post more
> .................... but ............ I won't respond.

Maybe you could tell me what your 'focus' was because, other than tossing out an
as of yet unexplained 'U.S. media' epithet, I just don't see it and I can't seem
to get you to explain it.

>
> seeya...
>
> "David Maynard" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>luinzi wrote:
>>
>>>>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
>>>>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
>>>>
>>>>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
>>>>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
>>>>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
>>>>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
>>>
>>>
>>>I obviously have a better understanding of how the US government works
>>
> than
>
>>>you think :)
>>
>>Since you haven't expressed one single tidbit of what you think you know
>>about it there isn't anything obvious at all except for your command of
>>clichés.
>>
>>
>>>My comments were directed not as to why didn't Clinton do it but as to
>>
> the
>
>>>real reason behind why Bush did it in the manner he did.
>>
>>Your comment wasn't directed at anything with respect to the topic but
>>was simply a pre programmed "U.S. style media" pull string doll response
>>and even here in your 'explanation' there is no meaning as you use
>>nothing but 'it' and 'the manner' without any substance as to what you
>>perceive 'it' and 'the manner' to be. Not to mention that if my original
>>message weren't still pasted in down there no one would even be able to
>>tell by your comments what the topic IS.
>>
>>
>>>Your rational
>>>appears to be deeply defensive of what has actually transpired.
>>
>>What 'rationale'? That "it wouldn't pass" is why Clinton didn't submit
>>it to the Senate?
>>
>>I have no idea what makes you think there's anything 'defensive' in my
>>stating the obvious.
>>
>>
>>>Your comments ooze with contorted US style media properganda.
>>
>>Second pull string response. Care to define what "U.S. style media" is?
>>Hint: it's a trick question as no one who watches it, reads it, listens
>>to it, produces, distributes, analyzes, or participates in it can seem
>>to agree. And even if, by some miracle, you managed the impossible you
>>would still have no idea what portion of it any particular individual
>>was regularly exposed to, nor what other sources they use, or what, if
>>any, of it they believed.
>>
>>
>>>Albeit there
>>>is some truth in these comment
>>
>>You speak but say nothing. How about making some actually meaningful
>>statement of what you think is 'truth' and what you think is different
>>with respect to the topic?
>>
>>
>>>however it does not hide the fact that the US
>>>government has always placed its own interests at heart in terms of US
>>>foreign policy,
>>
>>News flash: all countries do; and they'd be fools to do things *against*
>>their "own interests." The trick comes in how countries interpret their
>>"own interests." Like if it's acquisition of territory by armed invasion
>>or in promulgating democracy, mutual security, free trade, etc.
>>
>>
>>>from Iraq to Kyoto there have always been alterior motives.
>>
>>Yes, Saddam and the Kyoto participants had ulterior motives.
>>
>>
>>>Denial of this in anyway is without doubt testimoiny to the mind bending
>>>capabilities of the US media.
>>
>>I don't suppose it's ever dawned on you that someone can have an opinion
>>different than yours without it necessarily being due to "the U.S.
>>media." Good forbid anyone suggest it might even be correct.
>>
>>I'm curious; Just how did whatever you use convince you of it's
>>omniscient infallibility?
>>
>>
>>>David appart form the sarcastic remarks what country/State do you live
>>
> in?
>
>>I rather thought it was humorous but, no matter. I responded that way
>>because it's irrelevant as you are attempting to employ the poison well
>>logic fallacy to avoid dealing with the substance of the topic itself.
>>
>>
>>>"David Maynard" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>luinzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>These comments seem to be the product of someone who has been deeply
>>>>>influenced by the US media and US cultural imperialism???
>>>>
>>>>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
>>>>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
>>>>
>>>>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
>>>>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
>>>>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
>>>>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Where are you from David?
>>>>
>>>>Originally? My mother's womb, but I've moved around since then.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"David Maynard" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>neopolaris wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"chrismm" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>>
>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any
>>>>>>>
>>>>>agreement
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>reduce that pollution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We had very good reasons for NOT signing that and most were proud
>>>>>>
> that
>
>>>>>GW
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>stuck to his guns. We were being bullied for no good reason. Any
>>>>>>
>>>>>country
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>in that situation would've done the same with a newly elected leader.
>>>>>>
>>>I
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>didn't give us a license to pollute more...sheeese.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>All Bush did was tell 'em the unvarnished truth: that the treaty, as
>>>>>>written, didn't have a rat's chance in hell of ever passing the
>>>>>
> Senate,
>
>>>>>>and never did. But they'd rather 'feel good' with someone like Clinton
>>>>>>blowing smoke up their arses than hear the truth of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

bigbother
July 16th 03, 11:53 PM
oh....... come on luinzi retort!!!!

"David Maynard" > wrote in message
...
> luinzi wrote:
> > Well looks like I'm on the defensive - just like anyone else that dare
> > criticise anything about the US
>
> In the first place, you didn't make a 'criticism'; you tossed out a
generic,
> unexplained and unsupported, 'epithet' of some sort and have yet to
explain what
> it had to do with the point I had made.
>
> But, that's an interesting 'complaint'. You seem to think the U.S. is some
kind
> of epithet pin cushion you can stick insult needles in whenever the fancy
> strikes you and that it's 'unfair' anyone even so much as question it.
>
> > >I'm curious; Just how did whatever you use convince you of it's
> > >omniscient infallibility?
> >
> > an MA in cultural and Media studies specialising in 'American Cultural
> > Imperialism since the 1960's'. - Hence my so called 'pre programmed
> > response' as you put it.
>
> Well, yes. I'd say 'specializing' in it does a good job of programming
although
> I'm not sure why one would want to academically 'specialize' in an
opinionated
> conclusion.
>
> > But the infalibility of my argument was backed up
> > by your comment stating that "all countries do; and they'd be fools to
do
> > things *against* their "own interests." ", as I was making reference to
> > American Foreign Policy hgaving alterior motives.
>
> My comment about country's motives had nothing to do with media
'imperialism'.
> Rather it derives from human psychology as countries, almost without
exception,
> are populated and run by humans.
>
> Nice try at twisting my comment but I specifically made it at the point
where
> you stated the "US government has always placed its own interests at
heart" and
> NOT where you leveled the claim of "alterior" motives as the two are NOT
the
> same; which I explained in "The trick comes in how countries interpret
their
> 'own interests'."
>
>
> > > I don't suppose it's ever dawned on you that someone can have an
> > opinion
> > > different than yours without it necessarily being due to "the U.S.
> > > media." Good forbid anyone suggest it might even be correct.
> >
> > My previous post openly admitted that 'Albeit there is some truth in
these
> > comments' insinuating that I partly agreed with what is said in the
media. I
> > feel you impulsively responded with that comment.
>
> Your 'admission' is of no value because you refuse to say anything
specific. You
> don't say what you think is true, different, or anything else. Not to
mention
> that your 'admission' was in response to my comments, not the media. And I
> haven't MADE any media comments as you have never provided anything to
discuss
> regarding it other than some generic unspecified accusation, I presume, of
> 'imperialism'. My effort has been in trying to get you to explain what you
mean
> and why.
>
> > > News flash: all countries do; and they'd be fools to do things
> > *against*
> > > their "own interests." The trick comes in how countries interpret
> > their
> > > "own interests." Like if it's acquisition of territory by armed
> > invasion
> > > or in promulgating democracy, mutual security, free trade, etc.
> >
> > Not always. The British Prime Minister Mr Blair has marred his name
amongst
> > his own people by supporting the US against Saddam Hussein and has
> > consequently isolated Britain from its EU counterparts. It was always
> > acknowledged that Britain would never see any significant gain
(politically,
> > ecomically, socially, or in terms of security) from the Iraqi invasion.
>
> Acknowledged by WHO? I'd lay money on the table that Blair doesn't agree.
>
> You can't assign YOUR 'opinion' to Blair and then claim that's HIS
'motive'.
>
> > Gerheart Schroder and Jacques Chirac have put a huge strain on the EU
> > exports to the US by not backing war on Iraq.
>
> Besides that being a simplistic and limited observation, ignoring a host
of
> possible motives other than simply what effect something has on E.U.
exports,
> end results do not prove motives. I.E. Humans are fallible and things do
not
> always turn out as intended. Some people might suggest it rarely does.
>
> > I think there is a more long
> > term altruistic reasons for such actions by world leaders rather than
> > propergating their own interests.
>
> You obviously mean "world leaders" except, of course, for U.S. leaders as
you've
> claimed "there have always been alterior motives."
>
> Must be something in the water, eh?
>
> I suggest you're as ego centric about 'your' leaders as you claim folks in
the
> U.S. are; quite willing to assign 'altruistic' motives to 'yours' while
> asserting that the U.S. is always 'bad'.
>
> Btw, 'altruism', at least in the manner the term is often used, and
> "self-interest" are not mutually exclusive. Some wield 'altruism' as a
badge of
> 'moral superiority' over others, a "self-interest." Others simply 'feel
good' by
> doing 'good deeds', but it's in your "self-interest" to 'feel good' about
> yourself, isn't it?
>
> > > Second pull string response. Care to define what "U.S. style
media"
> > is?
> > > Hint: it's a trick question as no one who watches it, reads it,
> > listens
> > > to it, produces, distributes, analyzes, or participates in it can
seem
> > > to agree. And even if, by some miracle, you managed the impossible
you
> > > would still have no idea what portion of it any particular
individual
> > > was regularly exposed to, nor what other sources they use, or
what, if
> > > any, of it they believed.
> >
> > Pull string response?? Are you insinuating I'm a puppet???
>
> No. Maybe you don't know what I mean by a pull string doll. They're an old
type
> of 'talking' doll that spits out a preprogrammed phrase when you pull the
string
> on the back (string, when pulled, winds spring motor that runs the
internal
> mechanism for one phrase): like "U.S. Media Imperialism. Of course, no
matter
> what you say, or how hard you try to get the doll to 'explain' anything,
you
> just get the same phrases over and over; like "U.S. Media Imperialism."
>
> > I certainly do
> > care to define what I meant by US style media - there is a big
descrepency
> > in MBC, CNN and deep southern state redneck radio stations to say Al
> > Jazeera, TF1, Euronews and the BBC in terms of their standpoint.
>
> Saying different media are different isn't a definition of anything.
>
> Btw, if that characterization, up there, of the U.S. media is an accurate
> representation of your understanding of it then you don't understand it.
>
> > You're easily provocated into attacking others points of view the same
way
> > any aggressor would who attempts top impose his perogative on
others.....
> > does this sound familiar??
>
> How the heck could I have attacked your 'point of view' when you haven't
> presented one? Other than some knee jerk comment that I must be the
'victim' of
> "U.S. media imperialism" that you have YET to explain what you mean by
it.
>
> >
> > Sadly it appears that we are loosing the focus of this debate and we
have
> > entered the realms of merely attacking each other's posts. I have
nothing
> > further to state on this matter but feel free to post more
> > .................... but ............ I won't respond.
>
> Maybe you could tell me what your 'focus' was because, other than tossing
out an
> as of yet unexplained 'U.S. media' epithet, I just don't see it and I
can't seem
> to get you to explain it.
>
> >
> > seeya...
> >
> > "David Maynard" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>luinzi wrote:
> >>
> >>>>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
> >>>>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
> >>>>
> >>>>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
> >>>>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
> >>>>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
> >>>>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I obviously have a better understanding of how the US government works
> >>
> > than
> >
> >>>you think :)
> >>
> >>Since you haven't expressed one single tidbit of what you think you know
> >>about it there isn't anything obvious at all except for your command of
> >>clichés.
> >>
> >>
> >>>My comments were directed not as to why didn't Clinton do it but as to
> >>
> > the
> >
> >>>real reason behind why Bush did it in the manner he did.
> >>
> >>Your comment wasn't directed at anything with respect to the topic but
> >>was simply a pre programmed "U.S. style media" pull string doll response
> >>and even here in your 'explanation' there is no meaning as you use
> >>nothing but 'it' and 'the manner' without any substance as to what you
> >>perceive 'it' and 'the manner' to be. Not to mention that if my original
> >>message weren't still pasted in down there no one would even be able to
> >>tell by your comments what the topic IS.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Your rational
> >>>appears to be deeply defensive of what has actually transpired.
> >>
> >>What 'rationale'? That "it wouldn't pass" is why Clinton didn't submit
> >>it to the Senate?
> >>
> >>I have no idea what makes you think there's anything 'defensive' in my
> >>stating the obvious.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Your comments ooze with contorted US style media properganda.
> >>
> >>Second pull string response. Care to define what "U.S. style media" is?
> >>Hint: it's a trick question as no one who watches it, reads it, listens
> >>to it, produces, distributes, analyzes, or participates in it can seem
> >>to agree. And even if, by some miracle, you managed the impossible you
> >>would still have no idea what portion of it any particular individual
> >>was regularly exposed to, nor what other sources they use, or what, if
> >>any, of it they believed.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Albeit there
> >>>is some truth in these comment
> >>
> >>You speak but say nothing. How about making some actually meaningful
> >>statement of what you think is 'truth' and what you think is different
> >>with respect to the topic?
> >>
> >>
> >>>however it does not hide the fact that the US
> >>>government has always placed its own interests at heart in terms of US
> >>>foreign policy,
> >>
> >>News flash: all countries do; and they'd be fools to do things *against*
> >>their "own interests." The trick comes in how countries interpret their
> >>"own interests." Like if it's acquisition of territory by armed invasion
> >>or in promulgating democracy, mutual security, free trade, etc.
> >>
> >>
> >>>from Iraq to Kyoto there have always been alterior motives.
> >>
> >>Yes, Saddam and the Kyoto participants had ulterior motives.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Denial of this in anyway is without doubt testimoiny to the mind
bending
> >>>capabilities of the US media.
> >>
> >>I don't suppose it's ever dawned on you that someone can have an opinion
> >>different than yours without it necessarily being due to "the U.S.
> >>media." Good forbid anyone suggest it might even be correct.
> >>
> >>I'm curious; Just how did whatever you use convince you of it's
> >>omniscient infallibility?
> >>
> >>
> >>>David appart form the sarcastic remarks what country/State do you live
> >>
> > in?
> >
> >>I rather thought it was humorous but, no matter. I responded that way
> >>because it's irrelevant as you are attempting to employ the poison well
> >>logic fallacy to avoid dealing with the substance of the topic itself.
> >>
> >>
> >>>"David Maynard" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>luinzi wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>These comments seem to be the product of someone who has been deeply
> >>>>>influenced by the US media and US cultural imperialism???
> >>>>
> >>>>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't understand
> >>>>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
> >>>>
> >>>>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
> >>>>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
> >>>>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh, it
> >>>>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Where are you from David?
> >>>>
> >>>>Originally? My mother's womb, but I've moved around since then.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>"David Maynard" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>neopolaris wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"chrismm" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>><snip>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>agreement
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>to
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>reduce that pollution.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>We had very good reasons for NOT signing that and most were proud
> >>>>>>
> > that
> >
> >>>>>GW
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>stuck to his guns. We were being bullied for no good reason. Any
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>country
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>in that situation would've done the same with a newly elected
leader.
> >>>>>>
> >>>I
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>>>didn't give us a license to pollute more...sheeese.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>All Bush did was tell 'em the unvarnished truth: that the treaty, as
> >>>>>>written, didn't have a rat's chance in hell of ever passing the
> >>>>>
> > Senate,
> >
> >>>>>>and never did. But they'd rather 'feel good' with someone like
Clinton
> >>>>>>blowing smoke up their arses than hear the truth of it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

bigbother
July 17th 03, 12:05 AM
Am I the only one still reading this post between luinzi and david????
Hello??? Anyone out there?

who started this anyways??

"bigbother" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> oh....... come on luinzi retort!!!!
>
> "David Maynard" > wrote in message
> ...
> > luinzi wrote:
> > > Well looks like I'm on the defensive - just like anyone else that dare
> > > criticise anything about the US
> >
> > In the first place, you didn't make a 'criticism'; you tossed out a
> generic,
> > unexplained and unsupported, 'epithet' of some sort and have yet to
> explain what
> > it had to do with the point I had made.
> >
> > But, that's an interesting 'complaint'. You seem to think the U.S. is
some
> kind
> > of epithet pin cushion you can stick insult needles in whenever the
fancy
> > strikes you and that it's 'unfair' anyone even so much as question it.
> >
> > > >I'm curious; Just how did whatever you use convince you of it's
> > > >omniscient infallibility?
> > >
> > > an MA in cultural and Media studies specialising in 'American Cultural
> > > Imperialism since the 1960's'. - Hence my so called 'pre programmed
> > > response' as you put it.
> >
> > Well, yes. I'd say 'specializing' in it does a good job of programming
> although
> > I'm not sure why one would want to academically 'specialize' in an
> opinionated
> > conclusion.
> >
> > > But the infalibility of my argument was backed up
> > > by your comment stating that "all countries do; and they'd be fools to
> do
> > > things *against* their "own interests." ", as I was making reference
to
> > > American Foreign Policy hgaving alterior motives.
> >
> > My comment about country's motives had nothing to do with media
> 'imperialism'.
> > Rather it derives from human psychology as countries, almost without
> exception,
> > are populated and run by humans.
> >
> > Nice try at twisting my comment but I specifically made it at the point

> where
> > you stated the "US government has always placed its own interests at
> heart" and
> > NOT where you leveled the claim of "alterior" motives as the two are NOT
> the
> > same; which I explained in "The trick comes in how countries interpret
> their
> > 'own interests'."
> >
> >
> > > > I don't suppose it's ever dawned on you that someone can have an
> > > opinion
> > > > different than yours without it necessarily being due to "the
U.S.
> > > > media." Good forbid anyone suggest it might even be correct.
> > >
> > > My previous post openly admitted that 'Albeit there is some truth in
> these
> > > comments' insinuating that I partly agreed with what is said in the
> media. I
> > > feel you impulsively responded with that comment.
> >
> > Your 'admission' is of no value because you refuse to say anything
> specific. You
> > don't say what you think is true, different, or anything else. Not to
> mention
> > that your 'admission' was in response to my comments, not the media. And
I
> > haven't MADE any media comments as you have never provided anything to
> discuss
> > regarding it other than some generic unspecified accusation, I presume,
of
> > 'imperialism'. My effort has been in trying to get you to explain what
you
> mean
> > and why.
> >
> > > > News flash: all countries do; and they'd be fools to do things
> > > *against*
> > > > their "own interests." The trick comes in how countries
interpret
> > > their
> > > > "own interests." Like if it's acquisition of territory by armed
> > > invasion
> > > > or in promulgating democracy, mutual security, free trade, etc.
> > >
> > > Not always. The British Prime Minister Mr Blair has marred his name
> amongst
> > > his own people by supporting the US against Saddam Hussein and has
> > > consequently isolated Britain from its EU counterparts. It was always
> > > acknowledged that Britain would never see any significant gain
> (politically,
> > > ecomically, socially, or in terms of security) from the Iraqi
invasion.
> >
> > Acknowledged by WHO? I'd lay money on the table that Blair doesn't
agree.
> >
> > You can't assign YOUR 'opinion' to Blair and then claim that's HIS
> 'motive'.
> >
> > > Gerheart Schroder and Jacques Chirac have put a huge strain on the EU
> > > exports to the US by not backing war on Iraq.
> >
> > Besides that being a simplistic and limited observation, ignoring a host
> of
> > possible motives other than simply what effect something has on E.U.
> exports,
> > end results do not prove motives. I.E. Humans are fallible and things do
> not
> > always turn out as intended. Some people might suggest it rarely does.
> >
> > > I think there is a more long
> > > term altruistic reasons for such actions by world leaders rather than
> > > propergating their own interests.
> >
> > You obviously mean "world leaders" except, of course, for U.S. leaders
as
> you've
> > claimed "there have always been alterior motives."
> >
> > Must be something in the water, eh?
> >
> > I suggest you're as ego centric about 'your' leaders as you claim folks
in
> the
> > U.S. are; quite willing to assign 'altruistic' motives to 'yours' while
> > asserting that the U.S. is always 'bad'.
> >
> > Btw, 'altruism', at least in the manner the term is often used, and
> > "self-interest" are not mutually exclusive. Some wield 'altruism' as a
> badge of
> > 'moral superiority' over others, a "self-interest." Others simply 'feel
> good' by
> > doing 'good deeds', but it's in your "self-interest" to 'feel good'
about
> > yourself, isn't it?
> >
> > > > Second pull string response. Care to define what "U.S. style
> media"
> > > is?
> > > > Hint: it's a trick question as no one who watches it, reads it,
> > > listens
> > > > to it, produces, distributes, analyzes, or participates in it
can
> seem
> > > > to agree. And even if, by some miracle, you managed the
impossible
> you
> > > > would still have no idea what portion of it any particular
> individual
> > > > was regularly exposed to, nor what other sources they use, or
> what, if
> > > > any, of it they believed.
> > >
> > > Pull string response?? Are you insinuating I'm a puppet???
> >
> > No. Maybe you don't know what I mean by a pull string doll. They're an
old
> type
> > of 'talking' doll that spits out a preprogrammed phrase when you pull
the
> string
> > on the back (string, when pulled, winds spring motor that runs the
> internal
> > mechanism for one phrase): like "U.S. Media Imperialism. Of course, no
> matter
> > what you say, or how hard you try to get the doll to 'explain' anything,
> you
> > just get the same phrases over and over; like "U.S. Media Imperialism."
> >
> > > I certainly do
> > > care to define what I meant by US style media - there is a big
> descrepency
> > > in MBC, CNN and deep southern state redneck radio stations to say Al
> > > Jazeera, TF1, Euronews and the BBC in terms of their standpoint.
> >
> > Saying different media are different isn't a definition of anything.
> >
> > Btw, if that characterization, up there, of the U.S. media is an
accurate
> > representation of your understanding of it then you don't understand it.
> >
> > > You're easily provocated into attacking others points of view the same
> way
> > > any aggressor would who attempts top impose his perogative on
> others.....
> > > does this sound familiar??
> >
> > How the heck could I have attacked your 'point of view' when you haven't
> > presented one? Other than some knee jerk comment that I must be the
> 'victim' of
> > "U.S. media imperialism" that you have YET to explain what you mean by
> it.
> >
> > >
> > > Sadly it appears that we are loosing the focus of this debate and we
> have
> > > entered the realms of merely attacking each other's posts. I have
> nothing
> > > further to state on this matter but feel free to post more
> > > .................... but ............ I won't respond.
> >
> > Maybe you could tell me what your 'focus' was because, other than
tossing
> out an
> > as of yet unexplained 'U.S. media' epithet, I just don't see it and I
> can't seem
> > to get you to explain it.
> >
> > >
> > > seeya...
> > >
> > > "David Maynard" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > >>luinzi wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't
understand
> > >>>>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
> > >>>>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
> > >>>>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh,
it
> > >>>>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>I obviously have a better understanding of how the US government
works
> > >>
> > > than
> > >
> > >>>you think :)
> > >>
> > >>Since you haven't expressed one single tidbit of what you think you
know
> > >>about it there isn't anything obvious at all except for your command
of
> > >>clichés.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>My comments were directed not as to why didn't Clinton do it but as
to
> > >>
> > > the
> > >
> > >>>real reason behind why Bush did it in the manner he did.
> > >>
> > >>Your comment wasn't directed at anything with respect to the topic but
> > >>was simply a pre programmed "U.S. style media" pull string doll
response
> > >>and even here in your 'explanation' there is no meaning as you use
> > >>nothing but 'it' and 'the manner' without any substance as to what you
> > >>perceive 'it' and 'the manner' to be. Not to mention that if my
original
> > >>message weren't still pasted in down there no one would even be able
to
> > >>tell by your comments what the topic IS.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Your rational
> > >>>appears to be deeply defensive of what has actually transpired.
> > >>
> > >>What 'rationale'? That "it wouldn't pass" is why Clinton didn't submit
> > >>it to the Senate?
> > >>
> > >>I have no idea what makes you think there's anything 'defensive' in my
> > >>stating the obvious.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Your comments ooze with contorted US style media properganda.
> > >>
> > >>Second pull string response. Care to define what "U.S. style media"
is?
> > >>Hint: it's a trick question as no one who watches it, reads it,
listens
> > >>to it, produces, distributes, analyzes, or participates in it can seem
> > >>to agree. And even if, by some miracle, you managed the impossible you
> > >>would still have no idea what portion of it any particular individual
> > >>was regularly exposed to, nor what other sources they use, or what, if
> > >>any, of it they believed.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Albeit there
> > >>>is some truth in these comment
> > >>
> > >>You speak but say nothing. How about making some actually meaningful
> > >>statement of what you think is 'truth' and what you think is different
> > >>with respect to the topic?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>however it does not hide the fact that the US
> > >>>government has always placed its own interests at heart in terms of
US
> > >>>foreign policy,
> > >>
> > >>News flash: all countries do; and they'd be fools to do things
*against*
> > >>their "own interests." The trick comes in how countries interpret
their
> > >>"own interests." Like if it's acquisition of territory by armed
invasion
> > >>or in promulgating democracy, mutual security, free trade, etc.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>from Iraq to Kyoto there have always been alterior motives.
> > >>
> > >>Yes, Saddam and the Kyoto participants had ulterior motives.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Denial of this in anyway is without doubt testimoiny to the mind
> bending
> > >>>capabilities of the US media.
> > >>
> > >>I don't suppose it's ever dawned on you that someone can have an
opinion
> > >>different than yours without it necessarily being due to "the U.S.
> > >>media." Good forbid anyone suggest it might even be correct.
> > >>
> > >>I'm curious; Just how did whatever you use convince you of it's
> > >>omniscient infallibility?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>David appart form the sarcastic remarks what country/State do you
live
> > >>
> > > in?
> > >
> > >>I rather thought it was humorous but, no matter. I responded that way
> > >>because it's irrelevant as you are attempting to employ the poison
well
> > >>logic fallacy to avoid dealing with the substance of the topic itself.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>"David Maynard" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>luinzi wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>These comments seem to be the product of someone who has been
deeply
> > >>>>>influenced by the US media and US cultural imperialism???
> > >>>>
> > >>>>That comment sounds like it comes from someone who doesn't
understand
> > >>>>how the U.S. government works nor Clinton's personality.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Short version. Treaties require Senate ratification. Clinton didn't
> > >>>>submit it because he knew it wouldn't pass. It sat here for years
> > >>>>because it wouldn't pass. Bush came along and told Europe that, uh,
it
> > >>>>wasn't going to pass. Europe reels with shock and surprise.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>Where are you from David?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Originally? My mother's womb, but I've moved around since then.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>"David Maynard" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>neopolaris wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>"chrismm" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>><snip>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>countries are trying to reduce pollution you refuse to sign any
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>agreement
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>to
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>reduce that pollution.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>We had very good reasons for NOT signing that and most were proud
> > >>>>>>
> > > that
> > >
> > >>>>>GW
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>stuck to his guns. We were being bullied for no good reason.
Any
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>country
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>>in that situation would've done the same with a newly elected
> leader.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>I
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>didn't give us a license to pollute more...sheeese.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>All Bush did was tell 'em the unvarnished truth: that the treaty,
as
> > >>>>>>written, didn't have a rat's chance in hell of ever passing the
> > >>>>>
> > > Senate,
> > >
> > >>>>>>and never did. But they'd rather 'feel good' with someone like
> Clinton
> > >>>>>>blowing smoke up their arses than hear the truth of it.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

J.D.
August 6th 03, 06:38 AM
Amen to that, bro.

To all of you who ARE jealous.

Why the **** should we support half the rest of the world, when all
they can do is badmoth us?

I say we slam the door on immigration, and remember that charity
begins at home.

Let me be more succinct: (look it up in the dictionary); if you don't
like the USA, go **** yourselves, and go get a job.

A proud American.

J.D.
August 6th 03, 06:41 AM
I think it would look good under the Eifel tower.

J.D.
August 6th 03, 06:50 AM
Dickless:

Anything from france is low quality and overpriced, not to mention
they themselves are a bunch of ****ing drunks. Oh, and while we're at
it, anything the Japanese have done is reverse-engineered American
technology. Hell, anybody, even the french, could do that. They can
kiss my Red, White, and Blue ass.

Remember the First Amendment!

All Of A Sudden
August 6th 03, 07:20 AM
?

You are NOT at all well.

Who were your allies in the two recent Gulf wars?

and what happened when you TRIED to do vietnam on your own?

Arsehole!!


The british forces are the best in the world - How many "Yanks" have been
killed by terrorists in Iraq? How many Brits? try defending 50 years of USA
backed terrorism in Northern Ireland. The Brits did!!

J.D.
August 6th 03, 07:38 AM
You didn't win a war, only a battle. Can your feeble mind understand
the difference, you idiot.

J.D.
August 6th 03, 07:44 AM
And he coined the term "the Information Superhighway"

Jibby
August 6th 03, 07:54 AM
JD
1. Wrong newsgroup we really dont give a ****
2. GET A LIFE !!!!
"J.D." > wrote in message
...
> Amen to that, bro.
>
> To all of you who ARE jealous.
>
> Why the **** should we support half the rest of the world, when all
> they can do is badmoth us?
>
> I say we slam the door on immigration, and remember that charity
> begins at home.
>
> Let me be more succinct: (look it up in the dictionary); if you don't
> like the USA, go **** yourselves, and go get a job.
>
> A proud American.

Sascha Hauke
August 6th 03, 08:23 AM
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 06:47:37 GMT, "Lefty" >
wrote:

>my favorite line about the french in a war...
>
>their tanks all ahve 5 speeds...
>
>1 speed forward
>4 speeds in reverse...

1st of all that was a line about the Italians, and it was only
half-deserved. Their quality of soldiering was better than it was made
out to be, but they suffered horribly from bad equipment...

Secondly,... why the heck is this being x-posted to a friggin'
hardware NG? And why are there so many hate-mongers out there? Jeez,
people, GET OVER IT. If you wanna be hyper-nationalist post to soem
white-supremacist group.

Sascha

Illegitimi Non Carborundum!
- General "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell

Lefty
August 6th 03, 08:24 AM
don't ask me.. ask the dolt who started the thread..

have heard it told using the French AND Italians.. who cares?

Alan Hinchcliffe
August 6th 03, 09:27 AM
cocky and over confident as always

the americans sent a drill to the russians during the cold war thinking it
was the smallest drill ever made...


the russians sent it back with a hole down the middle of it



"J.D." > wrote in message
...
> Dickless:
>
> Anything from france is low quality and overpriced, not to mention
> they themselves are a bunch of ****ing drunks. Oh, and while we're at
> it, anything the Japanese have done is reverse-engineered American
> technology. Hell, anybody, even the french, could do that. They can
> kiss my Red, White, and Blue ass.
>
> Remember the First Amendment!

Sascha Hauke
August 6th 03, 12:04 PM
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:03:46 GMT, "Greg Ricketts"
> wrote:

>That made no stinking sense at all. Why don't you explain yourself a little
>better in these posts or don't post at all. "The Americans sent a drill to
>the russians ...". What the hell are you talking about? Dork.


Calm down a bit...

What he is talking about is a quite well known story.
And, for that matter, it doesn't need any further explanation, and if
further explanation were needed, it could be assumed that people would
be smart enough to ask politely.
So, the fact that it makes no sense to you, may reflect more on you
than on him...
So don't go around insulting people, just because YOU don't get it.
Thank you.


Sascha
Illegitimi Non Carborundum!
- General "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell

Alan Hinchcliffe
August 6th 03, 12:13 PM
the point is .... the americans thought they were able to produce things far
better, more accurate and smaller than everyone else.

but they didnt expect the USSR to send it back having drilled a hole down
the smallest thing the americans could produce and on top of that drill a
hole down hardened steel, maybe you need to be an engineer to understand but
next time u get a chance try drilling a 1mm hole down a 10mm hardened steel
drill and you will understand.

--


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"Greg Ricketts" > wrote in message
.. .
> That made no stinking sense at all. Why don't you explain yourself a
little
> better in these posts or don't post at all. "The Americans sent a drill
to
> the russians ...". What the hell are you talking about? Dork.
>
>
> "Alan Hinchcliffe" > wrote in
message
> ...
> > cocky and over confident as always
> >
> > the americans sent a drill to the russians during the cold war thinking
it
> > was the smallest drill ever made...
> >
> >
> > the russians sent it back with a hole down the middle of it
> >
>
>

DJ
August 6th 03, 12:28 PM
You insult the French and British I can only assume you are an American
Indian or a Mexican remember that France sent you the Statue of Liberty and
protected your puny American Fleet against the British so you may hate the
Brits but why get so het up about the country that assisted you getting away
from Britain. I celebrate july the 4th it was a great day
nothing like getting rid of an old colony and I didn't see you criticising
the earlier post about IRA support from the USA so as it is your countries
policy to bomb the supporters of terrorism I look forward to hearing the
Americans have attacked themselves. Remmeber every country that is at one
point the most powerful eventually upsets enough of the world to become
insignificant....... Romans Britian Russia.. et al USA will be next.
"Greg Ricketts" > wrote in message
.. .
> How many American soldiers are in Iraq, how many British soldiers are in
> Iraq? How much real estate is under American control in Iraq, how much is
> controlled by the Bristish? Obviously a dumbass comparison when you look
at
> it in the proper perspective. Arsehole back at you.
>
>
> "All Of A Sudden" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ?
> >
> > You are NOT at all well.
> >
> > Who were your allies in the two recent Gulf wars?
> >
> > and what happened when you TRIED to do vietnam on your own?
> >
> > Arsehole!!
> >
> >
> > The british forces are the best in the world - How many "Yanks" have
been
> > killed by terrorists in Iraq? How many Brits? try defending 50 years of
> USA
> > backed terrorism in Northern Ireland. The Brits did!!
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Arthur Hagen
August 6th 03, 01:48 PM
"J.D." > wrote in message
...

> Anything from france is low quality and overpriced, not to mention
> they themselves are a bunch of ****ing drunks. Oh, and while we're at
> it, anything the Japanese have done is reverse-engineered American
> technology. Hell, anybody, even the french, could do that.

Two countries are known for not innovating much, but capitalizing on foreign
inventions, or beating the original inventor in the rush to the patent
office. One is Japan, and the other is the US.

The first car: Germany
The first electric light: United Kingdom
The first lightbulb: Russia
The first battery: Italy
The first camera: France
The first locomotive: Britain
The first airplane: Germany
The first powered airplane: France
The first punch cards: France
The first computer: Germany
The first electronic computer: United Kingdom
The world wide web: Switzerland
The first rocket: Germany
The first person in space: Soviet Union
The first declaration of liberty: France

The US has its proud inventions too: http://totallyabsurd.com/foulspoon.htm

> They can kiss my Red, White, and Blue ass.

Funny, that. The Red, White and Blue colors were copied from the flag of
another country, which the Americans in charge admired very much. France.

> Remember the First Amendment!

If you try to bash the French by reminding people of the First Amendment to
the US constitution (a.k.a. The Bill of Rights), you only succeed in making
yourself look like an idiot.
You see, the US Bill of Rights is in large parts a translation, almost word
by word, of Count Sieyes' "The Rights of Man and of the Citizen", the
preamble to the French constitution.

--
*Art

Nick Hogg
August 6th 03, 01:51 PM
reminds me of that other (apocryphal) tale from the cold war, with some
american atsronauts bragging to their russian counterparts about a pen they
had developed, at immense cost, but that would write faultlessly in all
conditions - including zero gravity. yeah, said one of the cosmonauts - we
have one of those too: it's called a pencil.

but the thing about the drill really *doesn't* make any practical sense: if
the yanks thought that they had the smallest drill, why would they have sent
one to the russkies?

Alan Hinchcliffe
August 6th 03, 03:27 PM
bragging rights

--


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"Nick Hogg" > wrote in message
. ..
> reminds me of that other (apocryphal) tale from the cold war, with some
> american atsronauts bragging to their russian counterparts about a pen
they
> had developed, at immense cost, but that would write faultlessly in all
> conditions - including zero gravity. yeah, said one of the cosmonauts -
we
> have one of those too: it's called a pencil.
>
> but the thing about the drill really *doesn't* make any practical sense:
if
> the yanks thought that they had the smallest drill, why would they have
sent
> one to the russkies?
>
>

Wes Newell
August 6th 03, 04:05 PM
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:13:44 +0000, Alan Hinchcliffe wrote:

> the point is .... the americans thought they were able to produce things far
> better, more accurate and smaller than everyone else.
>
> but they didnt expect the USSR to send it back having drilled a hole down
> the smallest thing the americans could produce and on top of that drill a
> hole down hardened steel, maybe you need to be an engineer to understand but
> next time u get a chance try drilling a 1mm hole down a 10mm hardened steel
> drill and you will understand.

I don't know what this has to do with AMD, but i heard this joke over 40
years ago, except then the Americans sent it to the Germans.

Frankly, I don't give a **** who can make the smallest drill. I just wish
I could remember who told the joke originally. It was a well known comic
of the times. Might have been Hope.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.html

Wes Newell
August 6th 03, 04:12 PM
I don't know which moron wrote the original thread and cross posted it to
4 NG's, but it's time to stop. Anyone replying to this please do it by
email.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.html

Frank Weston
August 6th 03, 04:37 PM
This stupid thread deserves to die.

A simple Google search will demonstrate that you are very wrong on almost
every point. Why would you post such misinformation?


"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "J.D." > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Anything from france is low quality and overpriced, not to mention
> > they themselves are a bunch of ****ing drunks. Oh, and while we're at
> > it, anything the Japanese have done is reverse-engineered American
> > technology. Hell, anybody, even the french, could do that.
>
> Two countries are known for not innovating much, but capitalizing on
foreign
> inventions, or beating the original inventor in the rush to the patent
> office. One is Japan, and the other is the US.
>
> The first car: Germany
> The first electric light: United Kingdom
> The first lightbulb: Russia
> The first battery: Italy
> The first camera: France
> The first locomotive: Britain
> The first airplane: Germany
> The first powered airplane: France
> The first punch cards: France
> The first computer: Germany
> The first electronic computer: United Kingdom
> The world wide web: Switzerland
> The first rocket: Germany
> The first person in space: Soviet Union
> The first declaration of liberty: France
>
> The US has its proud inventions too:
http://totallyabsurd.com/foulspoon.htm
>
> > They can kiss my Red, White, and Blue ass.
>
> Funny, that. The Red, White and Blue colors were copied from the flag of
> another country, which the Americans in charge admired very much. France.
>
> > Remember the First Amendment!
>
> If you try to bash the French by reminding people of the First Amendment
to
> the US constitution (a.k.a. The Bill of Rights), you only succeed in
making
> yourself look like an idiot.
> You see, the US Bill of Rights is in large parts a translation, almost
word
> by word, of Count Sieyes' "The Rights of Man and of the Citizen", the
> preamble to the French constitution.
>
> --
> *Art
>

All Of A Sudden
August 6th 03, 08:15 PM
"Greg Ricketts" > wrote in message
.. .
> How many American soldiers are in Iraq, how many British soldiers are in
> Iraq? How much real estate is under American control in Iraq, how much is
> controlled by the Bristish? Obviously a dumbass comparison when you look
at
> it in the proper perspective. Arsehole back at you.


So to use your own idea back at you - how many "YANKS" won the second world
war for the rest of us?

Where were you?

NOTE: More than 75% of British casualties in BOTH gulf wars were inflicted
by "YANK" friendly fire - Living proof that you don't know your arse from
your elbow!!

I also noticed that your crappy country still has not stopped funding the
provisional IRA!!

Also - I noticed that a SMALL contingent of British forces captured IRAQS
Second Biggest city long before the americans learned to spell IRAQ!!

And all those special forces that have been leading the US Infantry
divisions to their targets? Oh yes - That will be the SAS - World Leaders!!!

Come back when a dollar buys a pound!!

You puny little country boy!!

Ed Light
August 6th 03, 08:47 PM
Don't think that J.D. represents the "typical" American. Nope.


--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Ed Light
August 6th 03, 08:49 PM
"J.D."
Out of us nerds' groups, please. Try to improve your iq.


--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Gary Sinnott
August 6th 03, 09:08 PM
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:47:41 -0700, "Ed Light" >
wrote:

>Don't think that J.D. represents the "typical" American. Nope.

Acknowledged and agreed. There's always a few in every country.

Gary

--------------------------------------------------
Reply to gary <at> data <dot> mildenhall <dot> com
--------------------------------------------------

Arthur Hagen
August 7th 03, 12:16 AM
"All Of A Sudden" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> So to use your own idea back at you - how many "YANKS" won the second
> world war for the rest of us?

400000 US soldiers sacrificed their lives in WWII, mostly in the Pacific
Theatre, fighting for themselves. More than 20 *million* Russian soldiers
lost their lives, mostly fighting for Europe.
I know who to thank, thank you very much.

--
*Art

Greg Ricketts
August 7th 03, 01:53 AM
Bite my ass, I can assume what he is talking about. But I won't. If you're
going to try to degrade others on these groups then you better explain your
posts well enough so that people know what your talking about. He did not,
period. And your little passive aggressive ploy of trying to make me look
like I'm blowing my stack is transparent and weasely as well. Oh, and you
didn't explain, what he was trying to explain, either. Retard.

"Sascha Hauke" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:03:46 GMT, "Greg Ricketts"
> > wrote:
>
> >That made no stinking sense at all. Why don't you explain yourself a
little
> >better in these posts or don't post at all. "The Americans sent a drill
to
> >the russians ...". What the hell are you talking about? Dork.
>
>
> Calm down a bit...

Greg Ricketts
August 7th 03, 01:54 AM
Yea, I am an engineer, electrical, as well as a physician. Thanks for the
explanation, but you can stick your condenscending attitude up your ass.


"Alan Hinchcliffe" > wrote in message
...
> the point is .... the americans thought they were able to produce things
far
> better, more accurate and smaller than everyone else.
>
> but they didnt expect the USSR to send it back having drilled a hole down
> the smallest thing the americans could produce and on top of that drill a
> hole down hardened steel, maybe you need to be an engineer to understand
but
> next time u get a chance try drilling a 1mm hole down a 10mm hardened
steel
> drill and you will understand.
>
> --
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Are you still wasting your time with spam?...
> There is a solution!"
>
> Protected by GIANT Company's Spam Inspector
> The most powerful anti-spam software available.
> http://www.giantcompany.com
>
>
> "Greg Ricketts" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > That made no stinking sense at all. Why don't you explain yourself a
> little
> > better in these posts or don't post at all. "The Americans sent a drill
> to
> > the russians ...". What the hell are you talking about? Dork.
> >
> >
> > "Alan Hinchcliffe" > wrote in
> message
> > ...
> > > cocky and over confident as always
> > >
> > > the americans sent a drill to the russians during the cold war
thinking
> it
> > > was the smallest drill ever made...
> > >
> > >
> > > the russians sent it back with a hole down the middle of it
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

OldfartJC
August 7th 03, 02:56 AM
Well then go thank them in person for Christ's sake.

"Arthur Hagen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "All Of A Sudden" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > So to use your own idea back at you - how many "YANKS" won the second
> > world war for the rest of us?
>
> 400000 US soldiers sacrificed their lives in WWII, mostly in the Pacific
> Theatre, fighting for themselves. More than 20 *million* Russian soldiers
> lost their lives, mostly fighting for Europe.
> I know who to thank, thank you very much.
>
> --
> *Art
>

Alan Bernardo
August 7th 03, 05:04 AM
"Greg Ricketts" > wrote in message
.. .
> That made no stinking sense at all. Why don't you explain yourself a
little
> better in these posts or don't post at all. "The Americans sent a drill
to
> the russians ...". What the hell are you talking about? Dork.
>
>
How about, "We Americans are quite an arrogant bunch."?

Alanb

Ed Light
August 7th 03, 06:01 AM
"Alan Bernardo" > wrote

> How about, "We Americans are quite an arrogant bunch."?

Well, hang on. It just the bummers. There's a movement to impeach the
B-Barfer and his crew.

http://votetoimpeach.org
--
Ed Light

Smiley :-/
MS Smiley :-\

Gary Sinnott
August 7th 03, 08:00 AM
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:50:14 -0500, David Maynard >
wrote:

>Arthur Hagen wrote:
>> "All Of A Sudden" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>
>>>So to use your own idea back at you - how many "YANKS" won the second
>>>world war for the rest of us?
>>
>>
>> 400000 US soldiers sacrificed their lives in WWII, mostly in the Pacific
>> Theatre, fighting for themselves. More than 20 *million* Russian soldiers
>> lost their lives, mostly fighting for Europe.
>> I know who to thank, thank you very much.
>>
>
>To suggest that America wasn't "fighting for Europe" but that Russia was, when
>Russia was perfectly happy to deal with Hitler and carve up Scandinavia betwixt
>them, till Hitler attacked, is quite a bizarre interpretation of history.

Yeah, well Britain was quite happy to deal with the genocidal mystic
murdering scumbag until he started tromping all over Poland.
Chamberpot's famous "I have in my hand a piece of toilet paper"
speech. Says it all. People do funny things when the stakes are
high. They sometimes do stupid things too.

Gary

--------------------------------------------------
Reply to gary <at> data <dot> mildenhall <dot> com
--------------------------------------------------

Sascha Hauke
August 7th 03, 10:00 AM
Greg Ricketts wrote:
> And your little passive aggressive ploy of trying to make me look
> like I'm blowing my stack is transparent and weasely as well. Oh, and you
> didn't explain, what he was trying to explain, either. Retard.

But it did work... troll

noise
August 7th 03, 08:27 PM
All Of A Sudden wrote:
<snipped>

> And all those special forces that have been leading the US Infantry
> divisions to their targets? Oh yes - That will be the SAS - World Leaders!!!

A lot of them were Australian SAS including a relative of
mine. Best troops in the world! (See? You can root for your
team without slagging off your allies).
While I'm at it, I'm still disgusted at our govt. for ever
sending them in the first place in the face of overwhelming
opposition by the people - fewer than 30% were in favour. So
much for democratic govt. reflecting the will of the people.
We send this token little hiccup of a force, not enough to
achieve much, just enough to get us on the terrorists'
revenge list. Thanks John, that's why they bombed Bali.

Dave
August 7th 03, 09:05 PM
"Wes Newell" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:13:44 +0000, Alan Hinchcliffe wrote:
>
> > the point is .... the americans thought they were able to produce things
far
> > better, more accurate and smaller than everyone else.
> >
> > but they didnt expect the USSR to send it back having drilled a hole
down
> > the smallest thing the americans could produce and on top of that drill
a
> > hole down hardened steel, maybe you need to be an engineer to understand
but
> > next time u get a chance try drilling a 1mm hole down a 10mm hardened
steel
> > drill and you will understand.
>
> I don't know what this has to do with AMD, but i heard this joke over 40
> years ago, except then the Americans sent it to the Germans.

Showing our age are we? ;-) Yeah, I agree, it's a stale joke...

> Frankly, I don't give a **** who can make the smallest drill. I just wish
> I could remember who told the joke originally. It was a well known comic
> of the times. Might have been Hope.

....God rest his soul.

> Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.html

Gary Sinnott
August 7th 03, 09:07 PM
On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:27:03 +0800, noise >
wrote:

>All Of A Sudden wrote:
><snipped>
>
>> And all those special forces that have been leading the US Infantry
>> divisions to their targets? Oh yes - That will be the SAS - World Leaders!!!
>
>A lot of them were Australian SAS including a relative of
>mine. Best troops in the world! (See? You can root for your
>team without slagging off your allies).
>While I'm at it, I'm still disgusted at our govt. for ever
>sending them in the first place in the face of overwhelming
>opposition by the people - fewer than 30% were in favour. So
>much for democratic govt. reflecting the will of the people.
>We send this token little hiccup of a force, not enough to
>achieve much, just enough to get us on the terrorists'
>revenge list.

>Thanks John, that's why they bombed Bali.

Maybe, maybe not. There's the distinct probability that some of these
people were just waiting for an excuse to take things up a notch.
When they stop waiting for excuses, start worrying, as quite a few of
them think that ALL westerners, whatever colour or faith MUST die.

Personally I think it's a ****ty excuse to allow mental cases to kill
whoever they want with little fear of retribution. "Thou shalt not
kill" my ass! I'm an atheist - does this mean I'm exempt from being
murdered by religious zealots or does that place me in the "must be
killed" category?

Trouble is, you get screwed by them if they're in a bad mood, and
screwed by your own if you defend yourself. Stop the world, I wanna
get off.

Gary

--------------------------------------------------
Reply to gary <at> data <dot> mildenhall <dot> com
--------------------------------------------------

Nick Hogg
August 7th 03, 09:13 PM
> We send this token little hiccup of a force, not enough to
> achieve much, just enough to get us on the terrorists'
> revenge list. Thanks John, that's why they bombed Bali.

that's not why they bombed Bali, mate. put your thinking cap on.

if you can't find that, use a mirror.

noise
August 8th 03, 09:29 PM
Nick Hogg wrote:
>>We send this token little hiccup of a force, not enough to
>>achieve much, just enough to get us on the terrorists'
>>revenge list. Thanks John, that's why they bombed Bali.
>
>
> that's not why they bombed Bali, mate. put your thinking cap on.
>
> if you can't find that, use a mirror.
>
>
Well granted it's by no means confirmed fact or the whole
story but there's a connection. Today, the papers reported
Amrozi the bomber being found guilty and sentenced to
death... they say in it that it's a part of a war Jemah
Islamiyah (sp?) are waging "against America and its allies"
in response to the campaign in Afghanistan...specifically
that. Isn't it a fair connection to make then, since he has
already stated that hitting Australians in Bali was partly
the aim, towards that end?

Anyway I'm well aware that it's not the sole reason and that
such an explanation is glib and incomplete - so I leapt to a
conclusion, shoot me <shrug>. Obviously if that's all there
was to it, Bali wouldn't be the ideal place to do it
either... something else has to account for their being
prepared to take out all those countrymen of theirs, and
they've mentioned something about that too IIRC.

The way you responded sounds to me like you can succinctly
tell me what *was* the reason they did it. Is that so?