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June 30th 03, 07:52 PM
Hi all

Sorry to post this in here but I couldnt find another newsgroup that would
be more appropriate so apologies to those who are bothered.

I am going to build a new PC ( my first attempt ) and would like to know a
few things before going ahead and buying the parts etc.

I have decided to go for a processor and motherboard that are both capable
of intel's hyper-threading, simply so that the system is forward compliant
to any further technologies that come about from this. The motherboard is a
gigabyte GA-8S648FX and on this I want to place a socket 478 p4 3.0ghz with
800mhz FSB, 1gb of DDR RAM 400mhz and a nVidia GeForce FX5900 256MB DDR

All I want to know is can anyone see and conflicting issues with these
components - any known bugs, compatibility problems etc

Any advice greatly appreciated

Cheers

Daniel

--
<[NBS]>Druidwitch
http://www.nbsnipers.com

LiveWire
June 30th 03, 08:08 PM
> Any advice greatly appreciated

You must be crazy to put a killer CPU like the 800FSB P4-3.0Ghz on a SIS
chipset rather than an 865/875 chipset w/dual channel memory.

--
LiveWire

Keith Clark
June 30th 03, 10:15 PM
"<[NBS]>Druidwitch" wrote:

> This is what I anted to know - like I said it will be a first attempt and I
> am expecting to be the last attempt for some years

Optimistic, aren't we? ;->

Here's an article that will help you understand why and how you'll get more bang
for your buck by going with the chipset that was recommended by the previous
poster.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/p4-2400c-oc.html

Video card - something based on an nVidia GeForce 4 Ti 4200/4400/4600. The 4200
based cards are the most affordable, around a hundred bucks. I'm going to put
one in the next system I build in a couple of months.

Memory - two sticks of dual-channel PC3700 DDR from OCZ or Corsair.

-Keith

Frode
June 30th 03, 10:27 PM
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<[NBS]>Druidwitch wrote:
> This is what I anted to know - like I said it will be a first attempt and
> I am expecting to be the last attempt for some years so I want to make
> sure I get it all right - can you explain why the different chipsets make
> a difference. I already have the processor so I cant change that really
> now but I havent got the motherboard so I still have the option to
> change,. What do people recommend for the card, memory and processor that
> will be put on it.

You'll want a chipset that can handle dual channel memory, like the
previous poster mentioned. That's a big bonus with the 800FSB cpu you've
got. If you go for a motherboard without dual channel support you
effectively cut memory bandwidth in half compared to what you could have,
as far as I've understood it. Another issue with older chipsets is a lack
of hyperthreading support, I believe. Also a major feature of the CPU.

If I were you I'd prolly go for the Asus P4C800 (or deluxe model of the
same). I was going to buy it but it wasn't in stock and I was in a hurry so
ended up with an Intel board with the same chipset this time around. The
Asus board has more features and is overclockable though, thus my
preference for it. I've had tons of Asus boards through the years and not a
single one has ever failed on me nor lacked in stability nor features.

For memory you'll want DDR 400MHz CL2 or at most 2.5. Stay clear of CL3.
And you'll want two identical ones for dual channel to work.


- --
Frode


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Keith Clark
June 30th 03, 11:02 PM
Frode wrote:

> For memory you'll want DDR 400MHz CL2 or at most 2.5. Stay clear of CL3.
> And you'll want two identical ones for dual channel to work.
>
> - --
> Frode

Some companies sell matched sticks that were tested together.

Here's one example...

http://www.markonecomputers.com/web-frameset-search-pw.asp?searchstring=CMX512-3700PT&src=pw.

Keith Clark
June 30th 03, 11:05 PM
Keith Clark wrote:

> Frode wrote:
>
> > For memory you'll want DDR 400MHz CL2 or at most 2.5. Stay clear of CL3.
> > And you'll want two identical ones for dual channel to work.
> >
> > - --
> > Frode
>
> Some companies sell matched sticks that were tested together.
>
> Here's one example...
>
> http://www.markonecomputers.com/web-frameset-search-pw.asp?searchstring=CMX512-3700PT&src=pw.

Hmmmm - that link didn't work. Try this one :

http://www.markonecomputers.com/cart/flash-moreinfo-pw.asp?Model=TWINX1024-2700LLPT&OrderID=92916930296056765317915&ref=3

LiveWire
June 30th 03, 11:34 PM
> If you go for a motherboard without dual channel support you
> effectively cut memory bandwidth in half compared to what you could have,

Exactly.

> If I were you I'd prolly go for the Asus P4C800 (or deluxe model of the
> same).

If the OP is into Gigabyte boards, the GA-8IPE1000/8IPE1000 Pro are pretty
good options that won't empty the wallet at $100-125.

--
LiveWire

July 1st 03, 01:21 AM
"Keith Clark" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "<[NBS]>Druidwitch" wrote:
>
> > This is what I anted to know - like I said it will be a first attempt
and I
> > am expecting to be the last attempt for some years
>
> Optimistic, aren't we? ;->

Hell yes! lol ; I am expecting this to be fair to decent for a good 18
months to 2 years! Please, don't tell me I am wrong, I don't want to know
:-S

> Here's an article that will help you understand why and how you'll get
more bang
> for your buck by going with the chipset that was recommended by the
previous
> poster.

The technical specs say the board can have a 800 FSB processor but is says
the boards FSB frequencies are 100 - 400 with 1Mhz increments, yet goes on
to say it works at 800Mhz??? Im lost on this one - does a processor control
the FSB or the motherboard? Either way can this board work at 800Mhz FSB
rather than just allow a 800 Processor??? God i'm dense lol.

If the board will run at 800 FSB then I think you may have changed my mind
about my board selection. The price is good, and basically whatever price
the high street charges you can knowck at least 30% off at bowlers Computer
Market in Manchester! WOOT


> http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/p4-2400c-oc.html
>
> Video card - something based on an nVidia GeForce 4 Ti 4200/4400/4600. The
4200
> based cards are the most affordable, around a hundred bucks. I'm going to
put
> one in the next system I build in a couple of months.

What about the FX5900 - I have nothing but excellent reviews on this card -
saying it is pretty much the best you are going to get at the moment - I am
going to get the card last of all to allow for some price drops, with it
being the most expensive component and all at around 400 :-S

> Memory - two sticks of dual-channel PC3700 DDR from OCZ or Corsair.

Now memory has been a bit confuddling for me so far - all machines I have
had to date have been SDRAM PC133 but everyone including the cat next door
has told me to go with DDR. The specs for the board in question state that
Dual Channel DDR is useable ( the ASUS board ) yet when I look on dabs some
fo the sticks are reffered to 512mb 400 and some with the four digit numbers
like yours. What are the differences - are the four digit variety dual
channel or does the number itself define this. Is dual channel PC3700 the
fastest you can get? As you may have figured I am going all out at making
3dMark03 and PCMark02 spit it's dummy out when I submit some results lol !!!
> -Keith

July 1st 03, 01:25 AM
"Frode" > wrote in message
...
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> Hash: SHA1
>
> <[NBS]>Druidwitch wrote:
> > This is what I anted to know - like I said it will be a first attempt
and
> > I am expecting to be the last attempt for some years so I want to make
> > sure I get it all right - can you explain why the different chipsets
make
> > a difference. I already have the processor so I cant change that really
> > now but I havent got the motherboard so I still have the option to
> > change,. What do people recommend for the card, memory and processor
that
> > will be put on it.
>
> You'll want a chipset that can handle dual channel memory, like the
> previous poster mentioned. That's a big bonus with the 800FSB cpu you've
> got. If you go for a motherboard without dual channel support you
> effectively cut memory bandwidth in half compared to what you could have,
> as far as I've understood it. Another issue with older chipsets is a lack
> of hyperthreading support, I believe. Also a major feature of the CPU.
>
> If I were you I'd prolly go for the Asus P4C800 (or deluxe model of the
> same). I was going to buy it but it wasn't in stock and I was in a hurry
so
> ended up with an Intel board with the same chipset this time around. The
> Asus board has more features and is overclockable though, thus my
> preference for it. I've had tons of Asus boards through the years and not
a
> single one has ever failed on me nor lacked in stability nor features.
>
> For memory you'll want DDR 400MHz CL2 or at most 2.5. Stay clear of CL3.
> And you'll want two identical ones for dual channel to work.


Again, as I said to Keith, my level of knowledge on DDR is none existent for
all intents and purpopses. What is the difference between dual channel
pc3700 and CL2 400mhz ( my word SDRAM was so much simpler lol )

Cheers

daniel

Frode
July 1st 03, 07:35 AM
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LiveWire wrote:
> If the OP is into Gigabyte boards, the GA-8IPE1000/8IPE1000 Pro are
> pretty good options that won't empty the wallet at $100-125.

I didn't comment on it since I have no experience with the line. My own
experiences with motherboards are usually crap when I veer from Asus. Thus
I rather pay the extra and get the stuff I'm used to. This Intel board I
got last is a great disappointment, but I'll get over it. At least it
performs good and is stable (as long as I don't mess in BIOS cause it has
no recovery feature).


- --
Frode

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Frode
July 1st 03, 07:38 AM
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<[NBS]>Druidwitch wrote:
>> For memory you'll want DDR 400MHz CL2 or at most 2.5. Stay clear of CL3.
>> And you'll want two identical ones for dual channel to work.
> Again, as I said to Keith, my level of knowledge on DDR is none existent
> for all intents and purpopses. What is the difference between dual
> channel pc3700 and CL2 400mhz ( my word SDRAM was so much simpler lol )

I checked a webstore that lists both denominations and it seems PC3700 =
400MHz, so you should be in the clear. If your store doesn't give you the
CL rating though I dunno how you'll go about getting that. As far as what
CL is I believe it stands for Cascade Level. Exactly what the impact is on
performance I have no idea except that a friend I trust adviced me to get 2
or 2.5 but stay clear of 3. So just forwarding that advice really. If it's
a braindead one presumably someone in the know here will correct me :)

- --
Frode

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LiveWire
July 1st 03, 01:51 PM
> As far as what
> CL is I believe it stands for Cascade Level.

CL is short for 'Case Latency', which is the time delay (in clock cycles)
that passes before the RAM starts to carry out a read command after
receiving it. The lower the latency, the faster the memory.

That being said, I don't care what anybody tells you, the difference between
CL2.5 & CL3 is not going to be noticeable. I bought Crucial PC3200 (CL3)
for my computer, and for the hell of it, set (or overclocked) the CL to 2.5
in the BIOS, along with some other slightly more agressive timings, and
there is obviously no difference in performance that I can detect without
benchmarks. After all, the CL number refers to nanoseconds. Do you think
you will notice a difference between 2.5 nanoseconds and 3 nanoseconds?

--
LiveWire

Frode
July 1st 03, 01:58 PM
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LiveWire wrote:
>> As far as what
>> CL is I believe it stands for Cascade Level.
> CL is short for 'Case Latency', which is the time delay (in clock
> cycles)

Suspected I got that one wrong :)

> After all, the CL
> number refers to nanoseconds. Do you think you will notice a difference
> between 2.5 nanoseconds and 3 nanoseconds?

I haven't given it any thought whatsoever. Although, if one was looking at
nanosecond delays that happened billions of times per second, it would add
up. I got CL3 by a delivery mistake (they're not supposed to even sell
them) and am waiting to get my replacements, but that's really just on
principle since my box currently rocks as far as I'm concerned.


- --
Frode

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Kent Hoult
July 1st 03, 01:59 PM
Almost, CL is CAS Latency. And CAS is itself short for Column Address Stobe
which
is active when the Column address is being loaded into to DRAM chip.

The CAS latency is then the number of ticks and/or nS after the CAS cycle
till
data in reads. Since it's usually speced in nS, the number of ticks varies
with the
actual clock being sent to the DRAM.

-Kent-

"LiveWire" > wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> > As far as what
> > CL is I believe it stands for Cascade Level.
>
> CL is short for 'Case Latency', which is the time delay (in clock cycles)
> that passes before the RAM starts to carry out a read command after
> receiving it. The lower the latency, the faster the memory.
>
> That being said, I don't care what anybody tells you, the difference
between
> CL2.5 & CL3 is not going to be noticeable. I bought Crucial PC3200 (CL3)
> for my computer, and for the hell of it, set (or overclocked) the CL to
2.5
> in the BIOS, along with some other slightly more agressive timings, and
> there is obviously no difference in performance that I can detect without
> benchmarks. After all, the CL number refers to nanoseconds. Do you think
> you will notice a difference between 2.5 nanoseconds and 3 nanoseconds?
>
> --
> LiveWire
>
>

LiveWire
July 1st 03, 04:29 PM
> Almost, CL is CAS Latency. And CAS is itself short for Column Address
Stobe
> which

Oops...that's correct. I must be slipping, as I did learn that from a
hardware course I took a while back.

Thanks for the clarification.

--
LiveWire

Keith Clark
July 1st 03, 06:30 PM
"<[NBS]>Druidwitch" wrote:

> The technical specs say the board can have a 800 FSB processor but is says
> the boards FSB frequencies are 100 - 400 with 1Mhz increments, yet goes on
> to say it works at 800Mhz??? Im lost on this one - does a processor control
> the FSB or the motherboard? Either way can this board work at 800Mhz FSB
> rather than just allow a 800 Processor??? God i'm dense lol.

The processor takes the oscillator frequency supplied by the board and
multiplies it internally to create the FSB speed, just as it does with the main
clock oscillator.

By the way any "good" motherboard with the same Intel chipset will also work at
this high level of performance. It's the chipset that allows the hyper threading
to be enabled in the processor, supports the 800MHz FSB, and the dual-channel
DDR.

Yes, PC3700 DDR is the fastest DDR (as of this moment ;->) available. Make sure
you get two sticks, as in a matched pair, because you'll get double the memory
bandwidth that way. That will help a lot if you do video editing (don't we all
dabble with DviX/VCD archiving these days? ;->). I think you should also see a
difference in gaming performance but check around before you take my word for it
, I'm not a true hardcore gamer.

Anyway, I plan to buy that board myself, and populate it with P4 2.4C, and two
sticks of PC 3700 DDR myself, and see how far I can push it. I haven't looked
forward to a board like this since the old Celeron 300A days (remember that
chip?! :->).

Cheers!
--Keith

Eric Witte
July 2nd 03, 11:38 AM
"Frode" > wrote in message >...
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> Eric Witte wrote:
> >> I checked a webstore that lists both denominations and it seems PC3700 =
> >> 400MHz, so you should be in the clear. If your store doesn't give you
> >> the
> > Actually PC3200 is 400Mhz, PC3500 is 434Mhz and PC3700 is 467Mhz.
>
> The webstore I checked being sloppy then. It lists both PC3200 and PC3700
> as 400 MHz. While another I checked now show them correctly as 400 and 467.
> Thanks for the heads up.
>
>
>
> - --
> Frode

If it is cheap PC3700 it may be overclocked to get there :)

Eric

)-()-(
July 3rd 03, 12:53 AM
Read anandtech.com for P4 mobo info. Another data point.

"<[NBS]>Druidwitch" wrote:

> Hi all
>
> Sorry to post this in here but I couldnt find another newsgroup that would
> be more appropriate so apologies to those who are bothered.
>
> I am going to build a new PC ( my first attempt ) and would like to know a
> few things before going ahead and buying the parts etc.
>
> I have decided to go for a processor and motherboard that are both capable
> of intel's hyper-threading, simply so that the system is forward compliant
> to any further technologies that come about from this. The motherboard is a
> gigabyte GA-8S648FX and on this I want to place a socket 478 p4 3.0ghz with
> 800mhz FSB, 1gb of DDR RAM 400mhz and a nVidia GeForce FX5900 256MB DDR
>
> All I want to know is can anyone see and conflicting issues with these
> components - any known bugs, compatibility problems etc
>
> Any advice greatly appreciated
>
> Cheers
>
> Daniel
>
> --
> <[NBS]>Druidwitch
> http://www.nbsnipers.com

Keith Clark
July 3rd 03, 05:46 PM
")-()-(" wrote:

> Read anandtech.com for P4 mobo info. Another data point.
>

Hard to believe the guy started that site when he was a high school student. He
has a lot of knowledge about the subject!


http://www.tomshardware.com/ is a very good site too.

Strontium
July 3rd 03, 06:06 PM
He's not dumb! That's not to say that he's not biased, either. :) Money talks,
bull**** walks.. YMMV
-
Keith Clark stood up, at show-n-tell, and said:

> ")-()-(" wrote:
>
>> Read anandtech.com for P4 mobo info. Another data point.
>>
>
> Hard to believe the guy started that site when he was a high school
> student. He has a lot of knowledge about the subject!
>
>
> http://www.tomshardware.com/ is a very good site too.

--
Strontium

"I thought I'd lost you, somewhere. But you were, never, really ever
there
at all. And, I want to get free..."