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huLLy
March 12th 08, 11:13 AM
OK, my system:

AMD 6400 AM2 Processor
Asus M2N SLi Deluxe Mobo
4 Gig RAM
1 250GB Sata, 2*400GB Sata Drives
2x Nvidia 768M 8800GTX
XFi extreme gamer soundcard

My question is what size PSU will I need to run this lot when gaming?

Will a Hiper 730W do the trick??

--
huLLy
Tel 07976 123278

Phil Weldon[_2_]
March 12th 08, 04:52 PM
'huLLy' wrote:
> My question is what size PSU will I need to run this lot when gaming?> OK,
> my system:
>
> AMD 6400 AM2 Processor
> Asus M2N SLi Deluxe Mobo
> 4 Gig RAM
> 1 250GB Sata, 2*400GB Sata Drives
> 2x Nvidia 768M 8800GTX
> XFi extreme gamer soundcard
>
> My question is what size PSU will I need to run this lot when gaming?
>
> Will a Hiper 730W do the trick??
_____

Never heard of a 'Hipper' brand power supply, but if it is decent and really
is rated at 730 Watts continuous operation, yes, 730 Watts is plenty for
total power; just make sure that the + 12 VDC rails can provide the
necessary current:

CPU: ~ 12 Amperes for the 12 DC-DC down converter-regulator

PLUS

8800 GTX: <~ 12 Amperes Peak Load each (see
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/gf8800gtx-roundup_6.html#sect0 ) PLUSeach drive, a max of ~ < 2 Amperes when spinning up from stopped to fullspeed, ~ 1/2 Ampere otherwise (3 drives plus, I assume an optical drive?)PLUSa few Amperes for everything else.That's a total of 45 Amperes from the +12 VDC rails (there may be from oneto three +12 VDC rails), 540 Watts max. Add 100 Watts or so are from the +5 VDC and +3.3 VDC rails (memory, motherboard, drives,audio card.) Addanother 5 Watts or so for + 5 VDC Standby, perhaps nothing at all for the -12 VDC (the audio card MIGHT use -12 VDC, nothing else will), - 5 VDC is nolonger even provided. The grand total will be under 650Watts (the currentallowances for the CPU, 8800 GTX's, and drives are generous.)The present standard for ATX power supplies is ATX 12V ver. 2.31 (see http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX12V_1_3dg.pdfand http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/Power_Supply_Design_Guide_Desktop_Platform_Rev_1_2 .pdf )include 'current sharing' among the +12 VDC rails, the +5 VDC rails, and the+3.3 VDC rails so that much of the unneeded current capacity of the lowervoltage rails can be used by the +12 VDC rails (up to the rated maximum.)HOWEVER, you might feel more comfortable with a good power supply with a 850Watt rating; after all, you are spending more $1000 for your displayadapters, so the incremental cost of going from a 730 Watt to a 850 Wattsupply is a small percentage of the system cost. And, as always, a welldesigned and constructed power supply with a lower rated capacity may outperform a poor quality power supply with a higher rating. (Seehttp://www.xbitlabs.com/ for power supply ratings and reviews.)Phil Weldon"huLLy" > wrote in messagenews:[email protected] ews.com...> OK, my system:>> AMD 6400 AM2 Processor> Asus M2N SLi Deluxe Mobo> 4 Gig RAM> 1 250GB Sata, 2*400GB Sata Drives> 2x Nvidia 768M 8800GTX> XFi extreme gamer soundcard>> My question is what size PSU will I need to run this lot when gaming?>> Will a Hiper 730W do the trick??>> --> huLLy> Tel 07976 123278>

Paul
March 12th 08, 11:41 PM
huLLy wrote:
> OK, my system:
>
> AMD 6400 AM2 Processor
> Asus M2N SLi Deluxe Mobo
> 4 Gig RAM
> 1 250GB Sata, 2*400GB Sata Drives
> 2x Nvidia 768M 8800GTX
> XFi extreme gamer soundcard
>
> My question is what size PSU will I need to run this lot when gaming?
>
> Will a Hiper 730W do the trick??
>

I get a total of about 12V @ 37.1A, but it will be spread
across the rails, according to how the output is wired.
Some supplies use a single 12V output, which means not
having to figure out the distribution.

For total power I get (approximately) -

(12*37.1) + 50 + 3*5 + 1*7.5 + 10 = 528W

There is a manual for a 730W supply here.

http://www.hipergroup.com/English/download/datasheet/hiperpower/hpu-4m730/HPU-4M730_datasheet.pdf

Tracking where the +12V current flows, gives this. The
four PCI Express connectors, are spread one per rail.
That really isn't the best way of distributing the loading,
as the processor load on 12V2 is pretty significant, and
so 12V2 really shouldn't be used for more than the processor.

Video card = 12V_slot + 12V_EXT1 + 12V_EXT2
= 3.67A + 3.58A + 3.42A

Power supply rails, and resulting load distribution (0.5A for
fans, 3.3A for 3 hard drives and 1 optical drive)

PCI-Express 12V1 3.58 = 3.58A
ATX Main + PCI-Express 12V3 3.67 + 3.67 + 0.5 + 3.58 = 11.42A
ATX12V 2x2 + PCI-Express 12V2 12 + 3.42 = 15.42A
Drives + PCI-Express 12V4 3.3A + 3.42 = 6.72A

The Hiper supply could do the job. Or the following
Silencer 750W would also be suitable. This one uses
a single 12V rail, such that the user doesn't have to
worry about how the rail limits, like the ones above,
are policed by the supply.

Silencer 750
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341011

Paul

Mr.E Solved!
March 12th 08, 11:51 PM
Paul wrote:
> huLLy wrote:
>> OK, my system:
>>
>> AMD 6400 AM2 Processor
>> Asus M2N SLi Deluxe Mobo
>> 4 Gig RAM
>> 1 250GB Sata, 2*400GB Sata Drives
>> 2x Nvidia 768M 8800GTX
>> XFi extreme gamer soundcard
>>
>> My question is what size PSU will I need to run this lot when gaming?
>>
>> Will a Hiper 730W do the trick??
>>
>
> I get a total of about 12V @ 37.1A, but it will be spread
> across the rails, according to how the output is wired.
> Some supplies use a single 12V output, which means not
> having to figure out the distribution.
>
> For total power I get (approximately) -
>
> (12*37.1) + 50 + 3*5 + 1*7.5 + 10 = 528W
>
> There is a manual for a 730W supply here.
>
> http://www.hipergroup.com/English/download/datasheet/hiperpower/hpu-4m730/HPU-4M730_datasheet.pdf
>
>
> Tracking where the +12V current flows, gives this. The
> four PCI Express connectors, are spread one per rail.
> That really isn't the best way of distributing the loading,
> as the processor load on 12V2 is pretty significant, and
> so 12V2 really shouldn't be used for more than the processor.
>
> Video card = 12V_slot + 12V_EXT1 + 12V_EXT2
> = 3.67A + 3.58A + 3.42A
>
> Power supply rails, and resulting load distribution (0.5A for
> fans, 3.3A for 3 hard drives and 1 optical drive)
>
> PCI-Express 12V1 3.58 = 3.58A
> ATX Main + PCI-Express 12V3 3.67 + 3.67 + 0.5 + 3.58 = 11.42A
> ATX12V 2x2 + PCI-Express 12V2 12 + 3.42 = 15.42A
> Drives + PCI-Express 12V4 3.3A + 3.42 = 6.72A
>
> The Hiper supply could do the job. Or the following
> Silencer 750W would also be suitable. This one uses
> a single 12V rail, such that the user doesn't have to
> worry about how the rail limits, like the ones above,
> are policed by the supply.
>
> Silencer 750
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341011
>
> Paul

That was nice of you to do all that work for the OP, I hope he
appreciates it.

Paul
March 13th 08, 01:07 AM
Mr.E Solved! wrote:
> Paul wrote:
>> huLLy wrote:
>>> OK, my system:
>>>
>>> AMD 6400 AM2 Processor
>>> Asus M2N SLi Deluxe Mobo
>>> 4 Gig RAM
>>> 1 250GB Sata, 2*400GB Sata Drives
>>> 2x Nvidia 768M 8800GTX
>>> XFi extreme gamer soundcard
>>>
>>> My question is what size PSU will I need to run this lot when gaming?
>>>
>>> Will a Hiper 730W do the trick??
>>>
>>
>> I get a total of about 12V @ 37.1A, but it will be spread
>> across the rails, according to how the output is wired.
>> Some supplies use a single 12V output, which means not
>> having to figure out the distribution.
>>
>> For total power I get (approximately) -
>>
>> (12*37.1) + 50 + 3*5 + 1*7.5 + 10 = 528W
>>
>> There is a manual for a 730W supply here.
>>
>> http://www.hipergroup.com/English/download/datasheet/hiperpower/hpu-4m730/HPU-4M730_datasheet.pdf
>>
>>
>> Tracking where the +12V current flows, gives this. The
>> four PCI Express connectors, are spread one per rail.
>> That really isn't the best way of distributing the loading,
>> as the processor load on 12V2 is pretty significant, and
>> so 12V2 really shouldn't be used for more than the processor.
>>
>> Video card = 12V_slot + 12V_EXT1 + 12V_EXT2
>> = 3.67A + 3.58A + 3.42A
>>
>> Power supply rails, and resulting load distribution (0.5A for
>> fans, 3.3A for 3 hard drives and 1 optical drive)
>>
>> PCI-Express 12V1 3.58 = 3.58A
>> ATX Main + PCI-Express 12V3 3.67 + 3.67 + 0.5 + 3.58 = 11.42A
>> ATX12V 2x2 + PCI-Express 12V2 12 + 3.42 = 15.42A
>> Drives + PCI-Express 12V4 3.3A + 3.42 = 6.72A
>>
>> The Hiper supply could do the job. Or the following
>> Silencer 750W would also be suitable. This one uses
>> a single 12V rail, such that the user doesn't have to
>> worry about how the rail limits, like the ones above,
>> are policed by the supply.
>>
>> Silencer 750
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341011
>>
>> Paul
>
> That was nice of you to do all that work for the OP, I hope he
> appreciates it.

The part that bothers me about these multi-rail supplies, is whether
they'd actually get upset, if the rating printed on the label is
exceeded. That supply is a quad 16 amp, and the 12V2 is getting
pretty close to the limit. Some of the good sites that review
power supplies, find they can double the load on a single rail,
without the supply shutting off. I feel guilty doing the analysis,
like the one I attempted above, when I don't know for a fact that
the supply "tips over" at 16A. But I have to follow what I see on
the label, and pretend that what is printed on the label, is
gospel.

Paul

First of One[_2_]
March 13th 08, 02:45 AM
As you know, some power supplies made by Seasonic and PCP&C are really
single-rail, but were advertised as multi-rail at one time because it was
fashionable. Now single-rail supplies are trendy, you see all kinds of
monster PSUs re-labeled with 50A or even 70A ratings on the 12V.

--
"War is the continuation of politics by other means.
It can therefore be said that politics is war without
bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed."

"Paul" > wrote in message ...
> The part that bothers me about these multi-rail supplies, is whether
> they'd actually get upset, if the rating printed on the label is
> exceeded. That supply is a quad 16 amp, and the 12V2 is getting
> pretty close to the limit. Some of the good sites that review
> power supplies, find they can double the load on a single rail,
> without the supply shutting off. I feel guilty doing the analysis,
> like the one I attempted above, when I don't know for a fact that
> the supply "tips over" at 16A. But I have to follow what I see on
> the label, and pretend that what is printed on the label, is
> gospel.
>
> Paul

Paul
March 13th 08, 04:36 AM
First of One wrote:
> As you know, some power supplies made by Seasonic and PCP&C are really
> single-rail, but were advertised as multi-rail at one time because it was
> fashionable. Now single-rail supplies are trendy, you see all kinds of
> monster PSUs re-labeled with 50A or even 70A ratings on the 12V.
>

I just wish the industry had some standards for this. It shouldn't boil
down to some review site opening the thing with a screwdriver, to figure
out how it works, and how it can be used.

Paul

Phil Weldon[_2_]
March 13th 08, 04:41 AM
'Paul' wrote:
> First of One wrote:
>> As you know, some power supplies made by Seasonic and PCP&C are really
>> single-rail, but were advertised as multi-rail at one time because it was
>> fashionable. Now single-rail supplies are trendy, you see all kinds of
>> monster PSUs re-labeled with 50A or even 70A ratings on the 12V.
>>
>
> I just wish the industry had some standards for this. It shouldn't boil
> down to some review site opening the thing with a screwdriver, to figure
> out how it works, and how it can be used
_____

There IS a standard; see
http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX12V_1_3dg.pdf
and
http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/Power_Supply_Design_Guide_Desktop_Platform_Rev_1_2 .pdf )
..

The idea behind the separate current limited + 12 VDC rails is to avoid a
fault condition that can draw 500 or more Watts before safety circuits kick
in.

Phil Weldon

"Paul" > wrote in message ...
> First of One wrote:
>> As you know, some power supplies made by Seasonic and PCP&C are really
>> single-rail, but were advertised as multi-rail at one time because it was
>> fashionable. Now single-rail supplies are trendy, you see all kinds of
>> monster PSUs re-labeled with 50A or even 70A ratings on the 12V.
>>
>
> I just wish the industry had some standards for this. It shouldn't boil
> down to some review site opening the thing with a screwdriver, to figure
> out how it works, and how it can be used.
>
> Paul

Paul
March 13th 08, 05:09 AM
Phil Weldon wrote:
> 'Paul' wrote:
>> First of One wrote:
>>> As you know, some power supplies made by Seasonic and PCP&C are
>>> really single-rail, but were advertised as multi-rail at one time
>>> because it was fashionable. Now single-rail supplies are trendy, you
>>> see all kinds of monster PSUs re-labeled with 50A or even 70A ratings
>>> on the 12V.
>>>
>>
>> I just wish the industry had some standards for this. It shouldn't boil
>> down to some review site opening the thing with a screwdriver, to figure
>> out how it works, and how it can be used
> _____
>
> There IS a standard; see
> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX12V_1_3dg.pdf
> and
> http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/Power_Supply_Design_Guide_Desktop_Platform_Rev_1_2 .pdf
> ) .
>
> The idea behind the separate current limited + 12 VDC rails is to avoid
> a fault condition that can draw 500 or more Watts before safety circuits
> kick in.
>
> Phil Weldon
>
> "Paul" > wrote in message ...
>> First of One wrote:
>>> As you know, some power supplies made by Seasonic and PCP&C are
>>> really single-rail, but were advertised as multi-rail at one time
>>> because it was fashionable. Now single-rail supplies are trendy, you
>>> see all kinds of monster PSUs re-labeled with 50A or even 70A ratings
>>> on the 12V.
>>>
>>
>> I just wish the industry had some standards for this. It shouldn't boil
>> down to some review site opening the thing with a screwdriver, to figure
>> out how it works, and how it can be used.
>>
>> Paul
>

I've heard of the 240VA limit from IEC60950, but it appears to be
optional to support it.

http://www.pcpower.com/technology/myths/

"PC Power and Cooling is once again leading the industry. All of
our power supplies now feature a large, single 12-volt rail. The
design is favored by major processor and graphics companies,
complies with EPS12V specs (the 240VA limit is not a requirement)
and is approved by all major safety agencies such as UL and TUV.3"

I'm not going to argue the merits of that statement, because I don't have
a copy of the appropriate spec that calls up the 240VA limit. I understand
it is traceable to something like 60950, but don't have a copy.

I was referring more to the architecture of the supplies. While formfactors
has a design document for dual rail supplies, I'm not aware of any standard
for tri or quad rail supplies. (Maybe design guidance comes from some
server spec ?) And the assignment of connectors, seems to be largely left
to chance. On the plus side, I am finding more documentation than I used
to. A few years ago, it used to be really frustrating to find out
what the wiring plan was. (Took a review article, to get the story. The
manufacturer couldn't be bothered to list it.)

Paul

Phil Weldon[_2_]
March 13th 08, 02:11 PM
'Paul' wrote:

> I'm not going to argue the merits of that statement, because I don't have
> a copy of the appropriate spec that calls up the 240VA limit. I understand
> it is traceable to something like 60950, but don't have a copy.
_____

See

"3.4.4. Over-current Protection
Overload currents applied to each tested output rail will cause the output
to trip before reaching
or exceeding 240 VA. For testing purposes, the overload currents should be
ramped at a
minimum rate of 10 A/s starting from full load."

on page 22 at
http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX12V_1_3dg.pdf .

Notice the phrase 'will cause the output to trip'.

and

8.1 North America - REQUIRED
The power supply must be certified by an NRTL (Nationally Recognized Testing
Laboratory) for use in the USA and Canada under the following conditions:
.. The power supply UL report "Conditions of Acceptability" shall meet in the
intended
application of the power supply in the end product.
.. The supply must be recognized for use in Information Technology Equipment
including Electrical Business Equipment per UL 60950-1 First Edition. The
certification must include external enclosure testing for the AC receptacle
side of
the power supply (see Appendices A, B, C, and D).
.. The supply must have a full complement of tests conducted as part of the
certification, such as input current, leakage current, hi-pot, temperature,
energy
discharge test, transformer output characterization test (open-circuit
voltage,
short-circuit performance), and abnormal testing (to include stalled-fan
tests and
voltage-select-switch mismatch).

on page 45 at

http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/Power_Supply_Design_Guide_Desktop_Platform_Rev_1_2 .pdf .

And see

"If the selected power supply has any single output rated at more than 240VA
contact with circuits connected to the output must be prevented in user
access areas, protection may be achieved by insulation, guarding or
interlocks (refer to IEC 60950-1 First Edition, 2001 Clauses 0.2.2 and 2.1)"


at

http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/emea/eng/35831.htm .


And, finally, see 'UL 60950-1 Information Technology', page 80

at

http://www.psui.com/1upower/pdf/901_ref.pdf .

Phil Weldon



"Paul" > wrote in message ...
> Phil Weldon wrote:
>> 'Paul' wrote:
>>> First of One wrote:
>>>> As you know, some power supplies made by Seasonic and PCP&C are really
>>>> single-rail, but were advertised as multi-rail at one time because it
>>>> was fashionable. Now single-rail supplies are trendy, you see all kinds
>>>> of monster PSUs re-labeled with 50A or even 70A ratings on the 12V.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I just wish the industry had some standards for this. It shouldn't boil
>>> down to some review site opening the thing with a screwdriver, to figure
>>> out how it works, and how it can be used
>> _____
>>
>> There IS a standard; see
>> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX12V_1_3dg.pdf
>> and
>> http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/Power_Supply_Design_Guide_Desktop_Platform_Rev_1_2 .pdf )
>> .
>>
>> The idea behind the separate current limited + 12 VDC rails is to avoid a
>> fault condition that can draw 500 or more Watts before safety circuits
>> kick in.
>>
>> Phil Weldon
>>
>> "Paul" > wrote in message ...
>>> First of One wrote:
>>>> As you know, some power supplies made by Seasonic and PCP&C are really
>>>> single-rail, but were advertised as multi-rail at one time because it
>>>> was fashionable. Now single-rail supplies are trendy, you see all kinds
>>>> of monster PSUs re-labeled with 50A or even 70A ratings on the 12V.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I just wish the industry had some standards for this. It shouldn't boil
>>> down to some review site opening the thing with a screwdriver, to figure
>>> out how it works, and how it can be used.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>
> I've heard of the 240VA limit from IEC60950, but it appears to be
> optional to support it.
>
> http://www.pcpower.com/technology/myths/
>
> "PC Power and Cooling is once again leading the industry. All of
> our power supplies now feature a large, single 12-volt rail. The
> design is favored by major processor and graphics companies,
> complies with EPS12V specs (the 240VA limit is not a requirement)
> and is approved by all major safety agencies such as UL and TUV.3"
>
> I'm not going to argue the merits of that statement, because I don't have
> a copy of the appropriate spec that calls up the 240VA limit. I understand
> it is traceable to something like 60950, but don't have a copy.
>
> I was referring more to the architecture of the supplies. While
> formfactors
> has a design document for dual rail supplies, I'm not aware of any
> standard
> for tri or quad rail supplies. (Maybe design guidance comes from some
> server spec ?) And the assignment of connectors, seems to be largely left
> to chance. On the plus side, I am finding more documentation than I used
> to. A few years ago, it used to be really frustrating to find out
> what the wiring plan was. (Took a review article, to get the story. The
> manufacturer couldn't be bothered to list it.)
>
> Paul

Paul
March 13th 08, 09:04 PM
Phil Weldon wrote:
> 'Paul' wrote:
>
>> I'm not going to argue the merits of that statement, because I don't have
>> a copy of the appropriate spec that calls up the 240VA limit. I
>> understand
>> it is traceable to something like 60950, but don't have a copy.
> _____
>
> See
>
> "3.4.4. Over-current Protection
> Overload currents applied to each tested output rail will cause the
> output to trip before reaching
> or exceeding 240 VA. For testing purposes, the overload currents should
> be ramped at a
> minimum rate of 10 A/s starting from full load."
>
> on page 22 at
> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX12V_1_3dg.pdf .
>
> Notice the phrase 'will cause the output to trip'.
>
> and
>
> 8.1 North America - REQUIRED
> The power supply must be certified by an NRTL (Nationally Recognized
> Testing
> Laboratory) for use in the USA and Canada under the following conditions:
> . The power supply UL report "Conditions of Acceptability" shall meet in
> the intended
> application of the power supply in the end product.
> . The supply must be recognized for use in Information Technology Equipment
> including Electrical Business Equipment per UL 60950-1 First Edition. The
> certification must include external enclosure testing for the AC
> receptacle side of
> the power supply (see Appendices A, B, C, and D).
> . The supply must have a full complement of tests conducted as part of the
> certification, such as input current, leakage current, hi-pot,
> temperature, energy
> discharge test, transformer output characterization test (open-circuit
> voltage,
> short-circuit performance), and abnormal testing (to include stalled-fan
> tests and
> voltage-select-switch mismatch).
>
> on page 45 at
>
> http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/Power_Supply_Design_Guide_Desktop_Platform_Rev_1_2 .pdf
> .
>
> And see
>
> "If the selected power supply has any single output rated at more than
> 240VA contact with circuits connected to the output must be prevented in
> user access areas, protection may be achieved by insulation, guarding or
> interlocks (refer to IEC 60950-1 First Edition, 2001 Clauses 0.2.2 and
> 2.1)"
>
>
> at
>
> http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/emea/eng/35831.htm .
>
>
> And, finally, see 'UL 60950-1 Information Technology', page 80
>
> at
>
> http://www.psui.com/1upower/pdf/901_ref.pdf .
>
> Phil Weldon

The second last link, is the clearest one. Basically, it is warning against
"contact with circuits", meaning the wiring is to be insulated, the plugs
should not expose conductors, such that the "test finger" could bridge them.
The Molex 1x4, I've noticed on some supplies, does expose conductors, and
the pins should really be recessed a bit.

Page 80 of 60950, is a table from "limited power source". I'm not sure,
but that could have something to do with power distribution systems.
I cannot find good linkages between the "limited power source" section,
and other sections of the document.

If I look through 60950, and look for instances of "HAZARDOUS ENERGY LEVEL",
the context seems to be mainly concerned with operator contact with the
source. Whether contact by the operator, or contact by a tool (screwdriver
bridges bare conductors). There could still be violations of that, on the
motherboard itself.

I'm not a standards guy. Someone who has been reading these specs over the
years, and knows which spec preceded that one, would have more context,
to make an interpretation.

Paul

Phil Weldon[_2_]
March 14th 08, 06:05 PM
'Paul' wrote:
> The second last link, is the clearest one. Basically, it is warning
> against
> "contact with circuits", meaning the wiring is to be insulated, the plugs
> should not expose conductors, such that the "test finger" could bridge
> them.
> The Molex 1x4, I've noticed on some supplies, does expose conductors, and
> the pins should really be recessed a bit.
>
> Page 80 of 60950, is a table from "limited power source". I'm not sure,
> but that could have something to do with power distribution systems.
> I cannot find good linkages between the "limited power source" section,
> and other sections of the document.
>
> If I look through 60950, and look for instances of "HAZARDOUS ENERGY
> LEVEL",
> the context seems to be mainly concerned with operator contact with the
> source. Whether contact by the operator, or contact by a tool (screwdriver
> bridges bare conductors). There could still be violations of that, on the
> motherboard itself.
>
> I'm not a standards guy. Someone who has been reading these specs over the
> years, and knows which spec preceded that one, would have more context,
> to make an interpretation.
_____

I don't think the issue should be over complicated or fudged as PC Power &
Cooling does. PC Power & Cooling (your
http://www.pcpower.com/technology/myths/ cite) is figuratively and,
potentially, literally blowing smoke. EPS12V is a server power supply
standard http://www.enhanceusa.com/designguide/eps12v_v2.0.pdf . PC Power
and cooling can not KNOW that the SYSTEM in which one of their single rail
power supplies is installed will comply with EPS12V. Therefore PC Power &
Cooling can not legitimately state EPS12V compliant. Not to mention any
kind of UL 60950-1 certification.

A similar question is followed up at
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ .

Phil Weldon


"Paul" > wrote in message
> Phil Weldon wrote:
>> 'Paul' wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not going to argue the merits of that statement, because I don't
>>> have
>>> a copy of the appropriate spec that calls up the 240VA limit. I
>>> understand
>>> it is traceable to something like 60950, but don't have a copy.
>> _____
>>
>> See
>>
>> "3.4.4. Over-current Protection
>> Overload currents applied to each tested output rail will cause the
>> output to trip before reaching
>> or exceeding 240 VA. For testing purposes, the overload currents should
>> be ramped at a
>> minimum rate of 10 A/s starting from full load."
>>
>> on page 22 at
>> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CATX12V_1_3dg.pdf .
>>
>> Notice the phrase 'will cause the output to trip'.
>>
>> and
>>
>> 8.1 North America - REQUIRED
>> The power supply must be certified by an NRTL (Nationally Recognized
>> Testing
>> Laboratory) for use in the USA and Canada under the following conditions:
>> . The power supply UL report "Conditions of Acceptability" shall meet in
>> the intended
>> application of the power supply in the end product.
>> . The supply must be recognized for use in Information Technology
>> Equipment
>> including Electrical Business Equipment per UL 60950-1 First Edition. The
>> certification must include external enclosure testing for the AC
>> receptacle side of
>> the power supply (see Appendices A, B, C, and D).
>> . The supply must have a full complement of tests conducted as part of
>> the
>> certification, such as input current, leakage current, hi-pot,
>> temperature, energy
>> discharge test, transformer output characterization test (open-circuit
>> voltage,
>> short-circuit performance), and abnormal testing (to include stalled-fan
>> tests and
>> voltage-select-switch mismatch).
>>
>> on page 45 at
>>
>> http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/Power_Supply_Design_Guide_Desktop_Platform_Rev_1_2 .pdf .
>>
>> And see
>>
>> "If the selected power supply has any single output rated at more than
>> 240VA contact with circuits connected to the output must be prevented in
>> user access areas, protection may be achieved by insulation, guarding or
>> interlocks (refer to IEC 60950-1 First Edition, 2001 Clauses 0.2.2 and
>> 2.1)"
>>
>>
>> at
>>
>> http://www.intel.com/cd/channel/reseller/emea/eng/35831.htm .
>>
>>
>> And, finally, see 'UL 60950-1 Information Technology', page 80
>>
>> at
>>
>> http://www.psui.com/1upower/pdf/901_ref.pdf .
>>
>> Phil Weldon
>
> The second last link, is the clearest one. Basically, it is warning
> against
> "contact with circuits", meaning the wiring is to be insulated, the plugs
> should not expose conductors, such that the "test finger" could bridge
> them.
> The Molex 1x4, I've noticed on some supplies, does expose conductors, and
> the pins should really be recessed a bit.
>
> Page 80 of 60950, is a table from "limited power source". I'm not sure,
> but that could have something to do with power distribution systems.
> I cannot find good linkages between the "limited power source" section,
> and other sections of the document.
>
> If I look through 60950, and look for instances of "HAZARDOUS ENERGY
> LEVEL",
> the context seems to be mainly concerned with operator contact with the
> source. Whether contact by the operator, or contact by a tool (screwdriver
> bridges bare conductors). There could still be violations of that, on the
> motherboard itself.
>
> I'm not a standards guy. Someone who has been reading these specs over the
> years, and knows which spec preceded that one, would have more context,
> to make an interpretation.
>
> Paul

Paul
March 14th 08, 08:23 PM
Phil Weldon wrote:

>
> I don't think the issue should be over complicated or fudged as PC Power
> & Cooling does. PC Power & Cooling (your
> http://www.pcpower.com/technology/myths/ cite) is figuratively and,
> potentially, literally blowing smoke. EPS12V is a server power supply
> standard http://www.enhanceusa.com/designguide/eps12v_v2.0.pdf . PC
> Power and cooling can not KNOW that the SYSTEM in which one of their
> single rail power supplies is installed will comply with EPS12V.
> Therefore PC Power & Cooling can not legitimately state EPS12V
> compliant. Not to mention any kind of UL 60950-1 certification.
>
> A similar question is followed up at
> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ .
>
> Phil Weldon
>

Here is one of their other Silencer series power supplies. This
is the low end, without a 2x4.

http://www.pcpower.com/power-supply/silencer-360-atx.html

They claim it is "ATX12V (2.1)" :-)

And in the Underwriters database, the Silencer 750W, with the
big-ass 12V output, is listed as 60950-1.

http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=QQGQ8.E131500&
ccnshorttitle=Power+Supplies,+Information+Technolo gy+Equipment+Including+Electrical+Business+Equipme nt+Certified+for+Canada+-+Component&
objid=1074219244&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073992443&sequence=1

(From http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.htm
"pcpower", "carlsbad", California, "92008", USA )

So what matters in the power supply business :-)

1) Enough agency approvals so you can sell it.
2) Classified according to connectors+wiring provided.
3) You have enough insurance, so you can afford to be sued.
4) If (3) is not true, declare bankruptcy.

The appearance of the 240VA clause in the Intel spec, is
presumably someone at Intel's interpretation, of what would
be appropriate for that class of power device. But again,
I'm not a standards guy, and the best people for that, are
the ones that were around when previous standards were issues.
The people involved, can not only tell you how to interpret the
current standard, but also the history of the standard, and
where it came from.

This new one from Intel is interesting.

"Power Supply Design Guide for Desktop Platform Form Factors Revision 1.2 - [1 MB]"
http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf

"Pg.29 3.5.7 Separate Current Limit for 12V2 - RECOMMENDED

The 12 V rail on the 2x2 power connector should be a separate
current limited output to meet the requirements of UL and EN 60950."

So the wording of their design guide, seems a little less
prescriptive. Like they want UL to take over.

Paul

Phil Weldon[_3_]
March 14th 08, 10:29 PM
'Paul' wrote, among other things:
> This new one from Intel is interesting.
>
> "Power Supply Design Guide for Desktop Platform Form Factors Revision
> 1.2 - [1 MB]"
> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf
> "Pg.29 3.5.7 Separate Current Limit for 12V2 - RECOMMENDED
>
> The 12 V rail on the 2x2 power connector should be a separate
> current limited output to meet the requirements of UL and EN 60950."
>
> So the wording of their design guide, seems a little less
> prescriptive. Like they want UL to take over.
_____

First, in your cite
http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf
is the statement

"8.1 North America - REQUIRED
The power supply must be certified by an NRTL (Nationally Recognized Testing
Laboratory) for use in the USA and Canada under the following conditions:
.. The power supply UL report "Conditions of Acceptability" shall meet in the
intended
application of the power supply in the end product.
.. The supply must be recognized for use in Information Technology Equipment
including Electrical Business Equipment per UL 60950-1 First Edition. The
certification must include external enclosure testing for the AC receptacle
side of
the power supply (see Appendices A, B, C, and D)."

Second, were I looking for a SLI (or cross-fire, but why?) system, I'd look
for a supply with four +12VDC rails. That ought to cover all bases;
adequate power +12VDC for each category (CPU, display adapter 1, display
adapter 2, and motherboard/drives), safety (no possibility of an internal
hair dryer, exploding screwdrivers or cockroaches), and valid certification.

Certification to UL standards is EXPENSIVE. I'd bet that there are lots of
power supply manufacturers that mention UL standards, but that haven't paid
for the testing and certification. See my cite from an earlier post in this
thread

"A similar question is followed up at
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ ."

I've submitted a query about actual testing and UL certification to PC Power
& Cooling. I hope they will be as forthcoming as the manufacturer in
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ .

Finally, PC Power & Cooling plays a little fast and loose with other
assertions in their website 'Power Supply Myths" section.

Phil Weldon


"Paul" > wrote in message ...
> Phil Weldon wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't think the issue should be over complicated or fudged as PC Power
>> & Cooling does. PC Power & Cooling (your
>> http://www.pcpower.com/technology/myths/ cite) is figuratively and,
>> potentially, literally blowing smoke. EPS12V is a server power supply
>> standard http://www.enhanceusa.com/designguide/eps12v_v2.0.pdf . PC
>> Power and cooling can not KNOW that the SYSTEM in which one of their
>> single rail power supplies is installed will comply with EPS12V.
>> Therefore PC Power & Cooling can not legitimately state EPS12V compliant.
>> Not to mention any kind of UL 60950-1 certification.
>>
>> A similar question is followed up at
>> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ .
>>
>> Phil Weldon
>>
>
> Here is one of their other Silencer series power supplies. This
> is the low end, without a 2x4.
>
> http://www.pcpower.com/power-supply/silencer-360-atx.html
>
> They claim it is "ATX12V (2.1)" :-)
>
> And in the Underwriters database, the Silencer 750W, with the
> big-ass 12V output, is listed as 60950-1.
>
> http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=QQGQ8.E131500&
>
> ccnshorttitle=Power+Supplies,+Information+Technolo gy+Equipment+Including+Electrical+Business+Equipme nt+Certified+for+Canada+-+Component&
>
> objid=1074219244&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073992443&sequence=1
>
> (From http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/index.htm
> "pcpower", "carlsbad", California, "92008", USA )
>
> So what matters in the power supply business :-)
>
> 1) Enough agency approvals so you can sell it.
> 2) Classified according to connectors+wiring provided.
> 3) You have enough insurance, so you can afford to be sued.
> 4) If (3) is not true, declare bankruptcy.
>
> The appearance of the 240VA clause in the Intel spec, is
> presumably someone at Intel's interpretation, of what would
> be appropriate for that class of power device. But again,
> I'm not a standards guy, and the best people for that, are
> the ones that were around when previous standards were issues.
> The people involved, can not only tell you how to interpret the
> current standard, but also the history of the standard, and
> where it came from.
>
> This new one from Intel is interesting.
>
> "Power Supply Design Guide for Desktop Platform Form Factors Revision
> 1.2 - [1 MB]"
> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf
>
> "Pg.29 3.5.7 Separate Current Limit for 12V2 - RECOMMENDED
>
> The 12 V rail on the 2x2 power connector should be a separate
> current limited output to meet the requirements of UL and EN 60950."
>
> So the wording of their design guide, seems a little less
> prescriptive. Like they want UL to take over.
>
> Paul

TheBoffin
March 15th 08, 02:05 PM
Mr.E Solved! wrote:
>
> That was nice of you to do all that work for the OP, I hope he
> appreciates it.

When Paul did the same work for me ... it was well appreciated - it's
helpful folks like Paul that make NG's tolerable IMO.

Boff.

Ed Medlin
March 19th 08, 03:58 PM
"huLLy" > wrote in message
...
> OK, my system:
>
> AMD 6400 AM2 Processor
> Asus M2N SLi Deluxe Mobo
> 4 Gig RAM
> 1 250GB Sata, 2*400GB Sata Drives
> 2x Nvidia 768M 8800GTX
> XFi extreme gamer soundcard
>
> My question is what size PSU will I need to run this lot when gaming?
>
> Will a Hiper 730W do the trick??
>
> --
> huLLy
> Tel 07976 123278
I use a PC Power and Cooling Silencer 750 that comes with the necessary "4"
power connectors for two 8800 GTXs in SLI. PCP&C have been around virtually
forever and make very good quality PSUs.

Ed
>
>

Ed Medlin
March 19th 08, 03:58 PM
"Phil Weldon" > wrote in message
...
> 'Paul' wrote, among other things:
>> This new one from Intel is interesting.
>>
>> "Power Supply Design Guide for Desktop Platform Form Factors Revision
>> 1.2 - [1 MB]"
>> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf
>> "Pg.29 3.5.7 Separate Current Limit for 12V2 - RECOMMENDED
>>
>> The 12 V rail on the 2x2 power connector should be a separate
>> current limited output to meet the requirements of UL and EN 60950."
>>
>> So the wording of their design guide, seems a little less
>> prescriptive. Like they want UL to take over.
> _____
>
> First, in your cite
> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf
> is the statement
>
> "8.1 North America - REQUIRED
> The power supply must be certified by an NRTL (Nationally Recognized
> Testing
> Laboratory) for use in the USA and Canada under the following conditions:
> . The power supply UL report "Conditions of Acceptability" shall meet in
> the intended
> application of the power supply in the end product.
> . The supply must be recognized for use in Information Technology
> Equipment
> including Electrical Business Equipment per UL 60950-1 First Edition. The
> certification must include external enclosure testing for the AC
> receptacle side of
> the power supply (see Appendices A, B, C, and D)."
>
> Second, were I looking for a SLI (or cross-fire, but why?) system, I'd
> look for a supply with four +12VDC rails. That ought to cover all bases;
> adequate power +12VDC for each category (CPU, display adapter 1, display
> adapter 2, and motherboard/drives), safety (no possibility of an internal
> hair dryer, exploding screwdrivers or cockroaches), and valid
> certification.
>
> Certification to UL standards is EXPENSIVE. I'd bet that there are lots
> of power supply manufacturers that mention UL standards, but that haven't
> paid for the testing and certification. See my cite from an earlier post
> in this thread
>
> "A similar question is followed up at
> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ ."
>
> I've submitted a query about actual testing and UL certification to PC
> Power & Cooling. I hope they will be as forthcoming as the manufacturer
> in
> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ .
>
> Finally, PC Power & Cooling plays a little fast and loose with other
> assertions in their website 'Power Supply Myths" section.
>
> Phil Weldon
>
PC Power and Cooling still make a great PSU........:-). I have been using
them for years without any issues at all. I have a Silencer 750 SLI in this
system with a couple of 8800GTX cards and it has been going strong
for......geeze, about a year now. Doesn't seem it has been that long since
we did these projects, does it Phil??.........


Ed

biff
March 19th 08, 06:43 PM
"Ed Medlin" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Phil Weldon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> 'Paul' wrote, among other things:
>>> This new one from Intel is interesting.
>>>
>>> "Power Supply Design Guide for Desktop Platform Form Factors Revision
>>> 1.2 - [1 MB]"
>>> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf
>>> "Pg.29 3.5.7 Separate Current Limit for 12V2 - RECOMMENDED
>>>
>>> The 12 V rail on the 2x2 power connector should be a separate
>>> current limited output to meet the requirements of UL and EN 60950."
>>>
>>> So the wording of their design guide, seems a little less
>>> prescriptive. Like they want UL to take over.
>> _____
>>
>> First, in your cite
>> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf
>> is the statement
>>
>> "8.1 North America - REQUIRED
>> The power supply must be certified by an NRTL (Nationally Recognized
>> Testing
>> Laboratory) for use in the USA and Canada under the following conditions:
>> . The power supply UL report "Conditions of Acceptability" shall meet in
>> the intended
>> application of the power supply in the end product.
>> . The supply must be recognized for use in Information Technology
>> Equipment
>> including Electrical Business Equipment per UL 60950-1 First Edition. The
>> certification must include external enclosure testing for the AC
>> receptacle side of
>> the power supply (see Appendices A, B, C, and D)."
>>
>> Second, were I looking for a SLI (or cross-fire, but why?) system, I'd
>> look for a supply with four +12VDC rails. That ought to cover all bases;
>> adequate power +12VDC for each category (CPU, display adapter 1, display
>> adapter 2, and motherboard/drives), safety (no possibility of an internal
>> hair dryer, exploding screwdrivers or cockroaches), and valid
>> certification.
>>
>> Certification to UL standards is EXPENSIVE. I'd bet that there are lots
>> of power supply manufacturers that mention UL standards, but that haven't
>> paid for the testing and certification. See my cite from an earlier post
>> in this thread
>>
>> "A similar question is followed up at
>> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ ."
>>
>> I've submitted a query about actual testing and UL certification to PC
>> Power & Cooling. I hope they will be as forthcoming as the manufacturer
>> in
>> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ .
>>
>> Finally, PC Power & Cooling plays a little fast and loose with other
>> assertions in their website 'Power Supply Myths" section.
>>
>> Phil Weldon
>>
> PC Power and Cooling still make a great PSU........:-). I have been using
> them for years without any issues at all. I have a Silencer 750 SLI in
> this system with a couple of 8800GTX cards and it has been going strong
> for......geeze, about a year now. Doesn't seem it has been that long since
> we did these projects, does it Phil??.........
>
>
> Ed
>
I use Enermax galaxy 1000w for my sli gtx's

Phil Weldon[_3_]
March 19th 08, 06:43 PM
'Ed Medlin' wrote:
> PC Power and Cooling still make a great PSU........:-). I have been using
> them for years without any issues at all. I have a Silencer 750 SLI in
> this system with a couple of 8800GTX cards and it has been going strong
> for......geeze, about a year now. Doesn't seem it has been that long since
> we did these projects, does it Phil??.........
_____

I emailed PC Power & Cooling about UL certification 60950-1. PC Power &
Cooling replied that their power supplies are certified, and gave me the
certificate number.

"If you go to the UL website and enter our file number of E131500 you can
see all of our UL certifications. They are done to UL 60950-1. All of our
supplies are ATX12V compliant and all of the supplies of the Silencer 610
EPS12V and higher in wattage are EPS12V compliant.
http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/gfilenbr.html "

I have no doubt that PC Power & Cooling makes good power supplies. What I
don't understand is how some of the certifications can be made without
knowing the system where they will be used.


As for our projects, no, it seems like just last year... oh, it was just
last year, exactly! I am trying to hold off on anything major until the
'Nehalem'. But the incremental expenses for my jones are killing me. I
just installed Windows Vista Home Ultimate (got tired of going back and
forth from my notebook to my overclocked desktop) and Vista SP1. Then I saw
a Creative sound card I couldn't live without; now that requires a Creative
I/O drive for midi I/O and front panel connections. And then there is my
new 22" wide screen LCD. By the time 'Nehalem' I won't be able to afford it
B^( And it seems that alt.comp.hardware.overclocking will be in a lull
until the 'Nelham' does arrive.

How is your clock modification doing?

Phil Weldon


"Ed Medlin" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Phil Weldon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> 'Paul' wrote, among other things:
>>> This new one from Intel is interesting.
>>>
>>> "Power Supply Design Guide for Desktop Platform Form Factors Revision
>>> 1.2 - [1 MB]"
>>> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf
>>> "Pg.29 3.5.7 Separate Current Limit for 12V2 - RECOMMENDED
>>>
>>> The 12 V rail on the 2x2 power connector should be a separate
>>> current limited output to meet the requirements of UL and EN 60950."
>>>
>>> So the wording of their design guide, seems a little less
>>> prescriptive. Like they want UL to take over.
>> _____
>>
>> First, in your cite
>> http://www.formfactors.org/developer%5Cspecs%5CPSU_DG_rev_1_1.pdf
>> is the statement
>>
>> "8.1 North America - REQUIRED
>> The power supply must be certified by an NRTL (Nationally Recognized
>> Testing
>> Laboratory) for use in the USA and Canada under the following conditions:
>> . The power supply UL report "Conditions of Acceptability" shall meet in
>> the intended
>> application of the power supply in the end product.
>> . The supply must be recognized for use in Information Technology
>> Equipment
>> including Electrical Business Equipment per UL 60950-1 First Edition. The
>> certification must include external enclosure testing for the AC
>> receptacle side of
>> the power supply (see Appendices A, B, C, and D)."
>>
>> Second, were I looking for a SLI (or cross-fire, but why?) system, I'd
>> look for a supply with four +12VDC rails. That ought to cover all bases;
>> adequate power +12VDC for each category (CPU, display adapter 1, display
>> adapter 2, and motherboard/drives), safety (no possibility of an internal
>> hair dryer, exploding screwdrivers or cockroaches), and valid
>> certification.
>>
>> Certification to UL standards is EXPENSIVE. I'd bet that there are lots
>> of power supply manufacturers that mention UL standards, but that haven't
>> paid for the testing and certification. See my cite from an earlier post
>> in this thread
>>
>> "A similar question is followed up at
>> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ ."
>>
>> I've submitted a query about actual testing and UL certification to PC
>> Power & Cooling. I hope they will be as forthcoming as the manufacturer
>> in
>> http://www.legitreviews.com/article/183/3/ .
>>
>> Finally, PC Power & Cooling plays a little fast and loose with other
>> assertions in their website 'Power Supply Myths" section.
>>
>> Phil Weldon
>>
> PC Power and Cooling still make a great PSU........:-). I have been using
> them for years without any issues at all. I have a Silencer 750 SLI in
> this system with a couple of 8800GTX cards and it has been going strong
> for......geeze, about a year now. Doesn't seem it has been that long since
> we did these projects, does it Phil??.........
>
>
> Ed
>

Ed Medlin
March 20th 08, 04:32 PM
"Phil Weldon" > wrote in message
...
> 'Ed Medlin' wrote:
>> PC Power and Cooling still make a great PSU........:-). I have been using
>> them for years without any issues at all. I have a Silencer 750 SLI in
>> this system with a couple of 8800GTX cards and it has been going strong
>> for......geeze, about a year now. Doesn't seem it has been that long
>> since we did these projects, does it Phil??.........
> _____
>
> I emailed PC Power & Cooling about UL certification 60950-1. PC Power &
> Cooling replied that their power supplies are certified, and gave me the
> certificate number.
>
> "If you go to the UL website and enter our file number of E131500 you can
> see all of our UL certifications. They are done to UL 60950-1. All of our
> supplies are ATX12V compliant and all of the supplies of the Silencer 610
> EPS12V and higher in wattage are EPS12V compliant.
> http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/gfilenbr.html "
>
> I have no doubt that PC Power & Cooling makes good power supplies. What I
> don't understand is how some of the certifications can be made without
> knowing the system where they will be used.
>

I pretty much gave up trying to understand how they can do that a long time
ago. It isn't just PC P&C either. I suppose about all major manufacturers
could go into the same boat.

>
> As for our projects, no, it seems like just last year... oh, it was just
> last year, exactly! I am trying to hold off on anything major until the
> 'Nehalem'. But the incremental expenses for my jones are killing me. I
> just installed Windows Vista Home Ultimate (got tired of going back and
> forth from my notebook to my overclocked desktop) and Vista SP1. Then I
> saw a Creative sound card I couldn't live without; now that requires a
> Creative I/O drive for midi I/O and front panel connections. And then
> there is my new 22" wide screen LCD. By the time 'Nehalem' I won't be
> able to afford it B^( And it seems that alt.comp.hardware.overclocking
> will be in a lull until the 'Nelham' does arrive.
>
> How is your clock modification doing?
>
> Phil Weldon
>


LOL.........I have too much time on my hands I guess. I actually had Vista
Ultimate 32 in my drive yesterday and backed out. Did SP1 help at all? I
also added a Creative card not long ago but didn't do the front panel. I
just got a new toy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157604034308504/ that will
probably delay me from upgrading for a little bit.....:-). That should get
me back into the woods for my photo work.....:-). ACHO is pretty dead right
now. Everything is so easy now that I don't see the old "glory" days coming
back. Well, my daughter-in-law went into the hospital at 10am so I expect to
be a granddad today for the first time so a trip down to S. TX will be
forthcoming......probably around the first of April. All of this will
probably put a Nehalem system back to about this Fall sometime.


Grandpa Ed