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View Full Version : Re: Does anyone use their computers under 100% stress in a 90F degrees environment?


June 19th 06, 02:01 PM
General Schvantzkoph wrote:
> How well do you function in a 90F room? Your CPU can probably survive
> it but how about you. My recommendation is a Sears Plasmaire Air
> Conditioner. The Plasmaire's are very quiet. Make sure you get the
> Plasmaire, the cheaper ones are much nosier.

No need, just get a fan...

June 19th 06, 07:16 PM
In alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64 wrote:
> General Schvantzkoph wrote:
> > How well do you function in a 90F room? Your CPU can probably survive
> > it but how about you. My recommendation is a Sears Plasmaire Air
> > Conditioner. The Plasmaire's are very quiet. Make sure you get the
> > Plasmaire, the cheaper ones are much nosier.

> No need, just get a fan...

I already have a small fan. It blows at the computers and me.
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Mxsmanic
June 20th 06, 03:14 AM
writes:

> No need, just get a fan...

A fan will not lower the temperature in the room.

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June 20th 06, 07:30 PM
In alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:

> > No need, just get a fan...

> A fan will not lower the temperature in the room.

Very true if the room is hot like 90F degrees. It just blowing hot air. It won't help
if outside is hotter. ;)
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Mxsmanic
June 20th 06, 09:31 PM
writes:

> Very true if the room is hot like 90F degrees. It just blowing hot air. It won't help
> if outside is hotter. ;)

Fans always raise the temperature; they never lower it. And if there
are people in the room, fans will also raise the humidity, which can
rapidly create a vicious circle of heating.

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June 20th 06, 09:59 PM
In alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64 Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:

> > Very true if the room is hot like 90F degrees. It just blowing hot air. It won't help
> > if outside is hotter. ;)

> Fans always raise the temperature; they never lower it. And if there
> are people in the room, fans will also raise the humidity, which can
> rapidly create a vicious circle of heating.

Hmm, I didn't know fans raise temperatures like that. Is that only when when the
temperature is really high? Or does that happen like in 80 degrees(F) area?
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Rod Speed
June 20th 06, 10:28 PM
wrote:
> In alt.comp.hardware.amd.x86-64 Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> writes:
>
>>> Very true if the room is hot like 90F degrees. It just blowing hot
>>> air. It won't help if outside is hotter. ;)
>
>> Fans always raise the temperature; they never lower it. And if there
>> are people in the room, fans will also raise the humidity, which can
>> rapidly create a vicious circle of heating.

> Hmm, I didn't know fans raise temperatures like that.

Its just basic physics. What power is used by the fan has
to end up in the air temp. There's nowhere else for it to go.

Corse its a relatively minor effect.

> Is that only when when the temperature is really high?

Nope, it happens at all temps.

> Or does that happen like in 80 degrees(F) area?

All temps.

Rod Speed
June 20th 06, 10:31 PM
Mxsmanic > wrote
> writes

>> Very true if the room is hot like 90F degrees. It just
>> blowing hot air. It won't help if outside is hotter. ;)

> Fans always raise the temperature; they never lower it. And if
> there are people in the room, fans will also raise the humidity,

Yes.

> which can rapidly create a vicious circle of heating.

Nope. In spades with that 'rapidly' claim.

Its just basic physics, the power that is used by the fan motor
has to end up in the air temp, there is nowhere else for it to go.

Mxsmanic
June 20th 06, 11:07 PM
writes:

> Hmm, I didn't know fans raise temperatures like that. Is that only when when the
> temperature is really high? Or does that happen like in 80 degrees(F) area?

It _always_ happens. It's physics. The moving vanes of the fan and
the motor add heat to the air as it passes through the fan. The
increase is slow but continuous. The temperature _never_ drops when a
fan is running; it never even stays the same. It always rises.

Additionally, the only reason a fan feels cool is that it accelerates
evaporation of your sweat. Unfortunately, this evaporating water also
adds to the humidity in the room, making it necessary to sweat more
and more just to keep cool. Eventually it stops working all together.

Above 85 F or so, fans are often a waste of time, as they just can't
help sweating enough to make much of a difference. It depends on the
relative humidity, though.

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Mxsmanic
June 20th 06, 11:09 PM
Rod Speed writes:

> Its just basic physics, the power that is used by the fan motor
> has to end up in the air temp, there is nowhere else for it to go.

The movement of the fan also heats the air.

One important thing to remember is that fans never lower the air
temperature. This is critical for PCs. It means that if the air
temperature is 90 F, no fan, no matter how powerful, will be able to
get the PC below 90 F.

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Ed Light
June 20th 06, 11:15 PM
A fan gives wind chill.


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Rod Speed
June 21st 06, 01:07 AM
Mxsmanic > wrote
> Rod Speed writes
>> Mxsmanic > wrote
>>> writes

>>>> Very true if the room is hot like 90F degrees. It just
>>>> blowing hot air. It won't help if outside is hotter. ;)

>>> Fans always raise the temperature; they never lower it. And if
>>> there are people in the room, fans will also raise the humidity,

>> Yes.

>>> which can rapidly create a vicious circle of heating.

>> Nope. In spades with that 'rapidly' claim.

>> Its just basic physics, the power that is used by the fan motor
>> has to end up in the air temp, there is nowhere else for it to go.

> The movement of the fan also heats the air.

That movement can only come from the power that goes into the motor.

> One important thing to remember is that
> fans never lower the air temperature.

Yes.

> This is critical for PCs.

Nope, just a minor consideration because PC fans use
little electrical power compared with the rest of the system.

> It means that if the air temperature is 90 F, no fan, no
> matter how powerful, will be able to get the PC below 90 F.

Yes, but thats a separate issue to your claim about humidity
and 'can rapidly create a vicious circle of heating'. Doesnt happen.

Rod Speed
June 21st 06, 01:10 AM
Mxsmanic > wrote
> writes

>> Hmm, I didn't know fans raise temperatures like that.
>> Is that only when when the temperature is really high?
>> Or does that happen like in 80 degrees(F) area?

> It _always_ happens. It's physics. The moving vanes of the fan
> and the motor add heat to the air as it passes through the fan. The
> increase is slow but continuous. The temperature _never_ drops
> when a fan is running; it never even stays the same. It always rises.

Nope, depends on the rate as which the air in
the room is moved out of that room by the fan.

> Additionally, the only reason a fan feels cool is that it accelerates
> evaporation of your sweat. Unfortunately, this evaporating water also
> adds to the humidity in the room, making it necessary to sweat more
> and more just to keep cool. Eventually it stops working all together.

No it doesnt. The sweat evaporating from a person
never increase the humidity in the room much.

> Above 85 F or so, fans are often a waste of time, as they just
> can't help sweating enough to make much of a difference.

Oh bull****. Most obviously when the relative humidity is only 5%

> It depends on the relative humidity, though.

Yep, your claim is just plain wrong with low RH.

Mxsmanic
June 21st 06, 04:12 AM
Ed Light writes:

> A fan gives wind chill.

Not at 90 F.

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Mxsmanic
June 21st 06, 04:17 AM
Rod Speed writes:

> Nope, depends on the rate as which the air in
> the room is moved out of that room by the fan.

Most fans aren't used to move air in or out, they only circulate it
within the room. And so the temperature always rises.

> No it doesnt. The sweat evaporating from a person
> never increase the humidity in the room much.

On the contrary, a person in hot air can lose a litre an hour through
perspiration, and in a normal room that raises humidity considerably,
just like a humidifier. It doesn't take long before the humidity is
so high that a fan barely makes any difference.

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Mxsmanic
June 21st 06, 04:18 AM
Rod Speed writes:

> That movement can only come from the power that goes into the motor.

Yes, so?

> Nope, just a minor consideration because PC fans use
> little electrical power compared with the rest of the system.

It's a big consideration because most people don't realize that a fan
cannot lower the temperature of the PC below the temperature of the
ambient air. To get the temperature down to 20 C within any part of
the PC, you _must_ have a source of air that is colder than 20 C, no
matter what types of fans you use.

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Rod Speed
June 21st 06, 04:59 AM
Mxsmanic > wrote
> Rod Speed writes
>> Mxsmanic > wrote
>>> Rod Speed writes
>>>> Mxsmanic > wrote
>>>>> writes

>>>>>> Very true if the room is hot like 90F degrees. It just
>>>>>> blowing hot air. It won't help if outside is hotter. ;)

>>>>> Fans always raise the temperature; they never lower it. And if
>>>>> there are people in the room, fans will also raise the humidity,

>>>> Yes.

>>>>> which can rapidly create a vicious circle of heating.

>>>> Nope. In spades with that 'rapidly' claim.

>>>> Its just basic physics, the power that is used by the fan motor
>>>> has to end up in the air temp, there is nowhere else for it to go.

>>> The movement of the fan also heats the air.

>> That movement can only come from the power that goes into the motor.

> Yes, so?

So there is no 'also'

>>> One important thing to remember is that
>>> fans never lower the air temperature.

>> Yes.

>>> This is critical for PCs.

>> Nope, just a minor consideration because PC fans use
>> little electrical power compared with the rest of the system.

> It's a big consideration because most people don't
> realize that a fan cannot lower the temperature of
> the PC below the temperature of the ambient air.

Thats not the reason for the fans, they just move the
heated air thats inside the case outside the case.

No one is even attempting to get the temperature
of the PC below the temperature of the ambient air.

> To get the temperature down to 20 C within any part of the PC,

He isnt even attempting to do that.

> you _must_ have a source of air that is colder than
> 20 C, no matter what types of fans you use.

Pity he isnt even attempting to do that.

ALL he needs to go do use his system in a 90F environment
is to get a decent airflow thru the case so the extra heat that
is generated inside the case doesnt raise the temp too much.

Rod Speed
June 21st 06, 05:06 AM
Mxsmanic > wrote
> Rod Speed writes
>> Mxsmanic > wrote
>>> writes

>>>> Hmm, I didn't know fans raise temperatures like that.
>>>> Is that only when when the temperature is really high?
>>>> Or does that happen like in 80 degrees(F) area?

>>> It always happens. It's physics. The moving vanes of the fan
>>> and the motor add heat to the air as it passes through the fan.
>>> The increase is slow but continuous. The temperature never drops
>>> when a fan is running; it never even stays the same. It always rises.

>> Nope, depends on the rate as which the air in
>> the room is moved out of that room by the fan.

> Most fans aren't used to move air in or out, they only circulate
> it within the room. And so the temperature always rises.

Clealry it doesnt when the fan produces
some air movement out of that room.

And if you dont like the minor temperature rise
caused by the fan, the obvious thing to do is to
deliberately move some of that air out of that room.

>>> Additionally, the only reason a fan feels cool is that it accelerates
>>> evaporation of your sweat. Unfortunately, this evaporating water also
>>> adds to the humidity in the room, making it necessary to sweat more
>>> and more just to keep cool. Eventually it stops working all together.

>> No it doesnt. The sweat evaporating from a person
>> never increase the humidity in the room much.

> On the contrary, a person in hot air can
> lose a litre an hour through perspiration,

Not when just sitting at the PC they dont.

> and in a normal room that raises humidity considerably,

No it doesnt. That effect is barely measurable
in fact when the individual is sitting at the PC.

> just like a humidifier.

Nothing like in fact.

> It doesn't take long before the humidity is so
> high that a fan barely makes any difference.

Pure bull****. And if you dont like the minor increase in humidity
levels which are in fact barely even measurable, the obvious
thing to do is to move some of that air out of that room, again,
by doing something as basic as leaving the door open etc.

Rod Speed
June 21st 06, 06:56 AM
Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Ed Light writes:
>
>> A fan gives wind chill.
>
> Not at 90 F.

Yes you do, tho its not a chill anymore.

kony
June 21st 06, 09:18 AM
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:17:29 +0200, Mxsmanic
> wrote:

>Rod Speed writes:
>
>> Nope, depends on the rate as which the air in
>> the room is moved out of that room by the fan.
>
>Most fans aren't used to move air in or out, they only circulate it
>within the room. And so the temperature always rises.
>
>> No it doesnt. The sweat evaporating from a person
>> never increase the humidity in the room much.
>
>On the contrary, a person in hot air can lose a litre an hour through
>perspiration, and in a normal room that raises humidity considerably,
>just like a humidifier. It doesn't take long before the humidity is
>so high that a fan barely makes any difference.


Untrue.

The increase in humidity is always a GOOD thing, as it is a
result of the person being cooled. That person being cooler
as a result of the perspiration evaporating off of them,
will then sweat less than if they were just drenched in
sweat without the fan.

Once the temp gets high enough a fan is not sufficient but
it is almost always better than no fan.

kony
June 21st 06, 09:20 AM
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:31:08 +1000, "Rod Speed"
> wrote:

>Mxsmanic > wrote
>> writes
>
>>> Very true if the room is hot like 90F degrees. It just
>>> blowing hot air. It won't help if outside is hotter. ;)
>
>> Fans always raise the temperature; they never lower it. And if
>> there are people in the room, fans will also raise the humidity,
>
>Yes.
>
>> which can rapidly create a vicious circle of heating.
>
>Nope. In spades with that 'rapidly' claim.
>
>Its just basic physics, the power that is used by the fan motor
>has to end up in the air temp, there is nowhere else for it to go.
>


Of course there is somewhere for it to go. If the heat
didn't enter and leave the room, it would not have gotten up
to 90F in the first place.

Mxsmanic
June 21st 06, 07:15 PM
kony writes:

> The increase in humidity is always a GOOD thing, as it is a
> result of the person being cooled. That person being cooler
> as a result of the perspiration evaporating off of them,
> will then sweat less than if they were just drenched in
> sweat without the fan.

An increase in humidity makes it harder to evaporate sweat, and thus
reduces the effectiveness of sweating at keeping the body cool. At
100% humidity, sweating is useless, and hyperthermia is often not far
away.

Computer equipment, on the other hand, likes humidity of 50-60%,
because it reduces static.

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Brian K
June 21st 06, 07:31 PM
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:15:24 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

> kony writes:
>
>> The increase in humidity is always a GOOD thing, as it is a
>> result of the person being cooled. That person being cooler
>> as a result of the perspiration evaporating off of them,
>> will then sweat less than if they were just drenched in
>> sweat without the fan.
>
> An increase in humidity makes it harder to evaporate sweat, and thus
> reduces the effectiveness of sweating at keeping the body cool. At
> 100% humidity, sweating is useless, and hyperthermia is often not far
> away.
>
> Computer equipment, on the other hand, likes humidity of 50-60%,
> because it reduces static.

This is amazing.

When it's hot, I like to turn on a fan. It makes me feel more comfortable,
no matter how much scientific evidence to the contrary you choose to
present.

And dare I mention the most significant reason for running a fan in a
hot room, which is to eliminate "hot spots." The room, overall, might be
near 90 degrees, but I'd be willing to bet that the desk near the window
with the 120 watt bulb directly overhead and three open computer cases
might be a tad bit hotter than the opposite corner near the open door.

Brian K

Rod Speed
June 21st 06, 08:36 PM
Mxsmanic > wrote
> kony writes

>> The increase in humidity is always a GOOD thing, as it is a
>> result of the person being cooled. That person being cooler
>> as a result of the perspiration evaporating off of them,
>> will then sweat less than if they were just drenched in
>> sweat without the fan.

> An increase in humidity makes it harder to evaporate sweat, and
> thus reduces the effectiveness of sweating at keeping the body cool.

Yes.

> At 100% humidity, sweating is useless,

Yes.

> and hyperthermia is often not far away.

Wrong. There are plenty of real world situations with 100%
humidity with not possibility what so ever of hyperthermia.

Sweating isnt the only way the body gets rid of heat,
even at 100% humidity, a fan STILL gets rid of heat
as long as the air temp is less than the body temp.

> Computer equipment, on the other hand, likes
> humidity of 50-60%, because it reduces static.

Static isnt in fact an important problem with a running system.

kony
June 22nd 06, 12:39 AM
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:15:24 +0200, Mxsmanic
> wrote:

>kony writes:
>
>> The increase in humidity is always a GOOD thing, as it is a
>> result of the person being cooled. That person being cooler
>> as a result of the perspiration evaporating off of them,
>> will then sweat less than if they were just drenched in
>> sweat without the fan.
>
>An increase in humidity makes it harder to evaporate sweat,
>and thus
>reduces the effectiveness of sweating at keeping the body cool.

The increase in humidity I was speaking of was solely due to
the sweat being evaporated off of the inhabitants, not an
environmental humidity increase besides that.

Mxsmanic
June 22nd 06, 04:20 AM
Brian K writes:

> This is amazing.
>
> When it's hot, I like to turn on a fan. It makes me feel more comfortable,
> no matter how much scientific evidence to the contrary you choose to
> present.

Hmm.

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Mxsmanic
June 22nd 06, 04:21 AM
Rod Speed writes:

> Wrong. There are plenty of real world situations with 100%
> humidity with not possibility what so ever of hyperthermia.

Not at 90 F. If you are sweating profusely, you're too hot, and at
100% humidity, it's only a matter of time.

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Mxsmanic
June 22nd 06, 04:21 AM
kony writes:

> The increase in humidity I was speaking of was solely due to
> the sweat being evaporated off of the inhabitants, not an
> environmental humidity increase besides that.

Me too.

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Rod Speed
June 22nd 06, 12:02 PM
Mxsmanic > wrote
> Rod Speed writes
>> Mxsmanic > wrote

>>> An increase in humidity makes it harder to evaporate sweat, and
>>> thus reduces the effectiveness of sweating at keeping the body cool.

>> Yes.

>>> At 100% humidity, sweating is useless,

>> Yes.

>>> and hyperthermia is often not far away.

>> Wrong. There are plenty of real world situations with 100%
>> humidity with not possibility what so ever of hyperthermia.

> Not at 90 F.

Yep, at 90F. Most obviously overnight in tropical areas.

> If you are sweating profusely, you're too hot,

Wrong again.

> and at 100% humidity, it's only a matter of time.

Have fun explaining how come those in the tropics manage it fine most nights.