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AnonymousFC4
December 28th 05, 02:12 AM
This is a repost: Original post on alt.os.linux.suse
Subject: SUSE 10.0 NVIDIA: how to enable 3D -- temporary conclusions --
==
I think the Linux support on Nvidia, is at best poor: hard to install, often
instable.

Also the Nvidia Linux drivers distribution model is unacceptable: I still
consider that when I purchase a computer peripheral for Linux, then I
should be able to use clean open source drivers for it.

I have purchased several NVIDIA cards, but unless NVIDIA wakes up and
provides a good alternative to the current situation... which has lasted a
long time, I will try ATI (or other video cards/chip vendor) in the future,
hoping that the situation is better there. (Not sure).

It is interesting to note that often new vendors establish a solid presence
in the Linux (and other open source)by providing what is missing.
I am wondering how many Laser printers did sell on the Linux market...
because others printers vendors had poor linux support.
My guess is "a lot ".

note: freely providing the technical product specification, API (application
programming interface) specification is what the open source guys need to
write device drivers.
Reverse engineering is possible, of course... but painful.
==
AnonymousFC4 wrote:

> Hello:
> boy, did I strike a cord with this posting !
>
> my conclusions:
>
> 1) Other people seem to have similar issue, so it is real.
>
> 2) Since I downgraded the kernel, (to 2.6.13.5) I did not have a single
> crash crash... and they where very frequent.
> I did not enable 3D (but I did with SUSE 10 RC3 and had zero problems!
>
> 3) The kernel 2.6.13.5.7 may be OK but combined with the NVIDIA driver
> there is a visible problem! Since we do not have access to the source code
> of the driver, proper identitification is possible, but trickier.
>
> 4) I mildly disagree with the accusations of SUSE being lower quality,
> SUSE 10.0 is overall excellent... but I would agree and reiterate that
> SUSE/NOVELL should more focused on quality and testing, than only eyes
> candy and marketing driven cosmetics "a la Microsoft".
>
> Linux is supposed to be about substance, and the distro vendors will do
> well to add value to Linux the smart way: add what is missing... like the
> RPM manager (Red-Hat) or YAST (SUSE)... or trainings, documentation that
> the hobbyists developing Linux don't care for.
>
> 5) The new business model (Open SUSE)is a good one, similar to Fedora, but
> it fails on one point: proper integration and test of NON-GPL software
> like NVIDIA device drivers, etc...
>
> This should be easy to fix if SUSE does the proper "lobbying" to test and
> release candidate of SUSE Linux, WITH THE INCLUSION of the non-gpl stuff!.
> This includes ACROREAD, MP3 modules, etc....
> Also large companies like NVIDIA could allow propre creations of distro
> specific RPM's by releasing the "building blocks" even in some compiled
> form, they also should amend their user's license to allow free
> distribution!
>
> We (users) should vote with our wallet by preferrately purchasing hardware
> (here video cards) with open source software drivers...
> How will NVIDIA, ATI and chip vendors achieve this? This is up to them!
> There are many possible options.
>
> 6) The RTFM claim made here, by one posting has some validity... and some
> sillyness in it: if I wanted to get in this mode, why should I use SUSE,
> or RedHat, I will rather go Debian or derivatives (UBUNTU, possibly).
>
> I have chosen SUSE Linux because I want to be user, not a hacker: my
> expectation with it being a Linux Distro well documented, and simple to
> use/update.
> I would expect SUSE/NOVEL to make money by selling packages (less and
> less), but books, training, and sopport.
>
> 7) The kids are still nagging...
> At some point the kids will grow up and contribute, I am sure.
>
> Thanks for all the posting, and contributions...
> AFC4
> ====================
> Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 06:35:09 GMT, Andreas > Gave
>> us: Roy L. Fuchs escribe:
>>> If YOU would learn to READ the SUSE Linux Install HOW-TO on the
>>>> NVIDIA website, you would LEARN that the problem is YOU.
>>>YOU as in [Y]ast [O]nline [U]pdate?
>> Wrong. "YOU" as in the person that posted the supposed "problem".

J. Clarke
December 28th 05, 06:12 AM
All right, please identify a video board vendor with good Linux support.
You don't like nvidia's model, ATI's is the same, where does that leave
you?

AnonymousFC4 wrote:

> This is a repost: Original post on alt.os.linux.suse
> Subject: SUSE 10.0 NVIDIA: how to enable 3D -- temporary conclusions --
> ==
> I think the Linux support on Nvidia, is at best poor: hard to install,
> often instable.
>
> Also the Nvidia Linux drivers distribution model is unacceptable: I still
> consider that when I purchase a computer peripheral for Linux, then I
> should be able to use clean open source drivers for it.
>
> I have purchased several NVIDIA cards, but unless NVIDIA wakes up and
> provides a good alternative to the current situation... which has lasted a
> long time, I will try ATI (or other video cards/chip vendor) in the
> future, hoping that the situation is better there. (Not sure).
>
> It is interesting to note that often new vendors establish a solid
> presence in the Linux (and other open source)by providing what is missing.
> I am wondering how many Laser printers did sell on the Linux market...
> because others printers vendors had poor linux support.
> My guess is "a lot ".
>
> note: freely providing the technical product specification, API
> (application programming interface) specification is what the open source
> guys need to write device drivers.
> Reverse engineering is possible, of course... but painful.
> ==
> AnonymousFC4 wrote:
>
>> Hello:
>> boy, did I strike a cord with this posting !
>>
>> my conclusions:
>>
>> 1) Other people seem to have similar issue, so it is real.
>>
>> 2) Since I downgraded the kernel, (to 2.6.13.5) I did not have a single
>> crash crash... and they where very frequent.
>> I did not enable 3D (but I did with SUSE 10 RC3 and had zero problems!
>>
>> 3) The kernel 2.6.13.5.7 may be OK but combined with the NVIDIA driver
>> there is a visible problem! Since we do not have access to the source
>> code of the driver, proper identitification is possible, but trickier.
>>
>> 4) I mildly disagree with the accusations of SUSE being lower quality,
>> SUSE 10.0 is overall excellent... but I would agree and reiterate that
>> SUSE/NOVELL should more focused on quality and testing, than only eyes
>> candy and marketing driven cosmetics "a la Microsoft".
>>
>> Linux is supposed to be about substance, and the distro vendors will do
>> well to add value to Linux the smart way: add what is missing... like the
>> RPM manager (Red-Hat) or YAST (SUSE)... or trainings, documentation that
>> the hobbyists developing Linux don't care for.
>>
>> 5) The new business model (Open SUSE)is a good one, similar to Fedora,
>> but it fails on one point: proper integration and test of NON-GPL
>> software like NVIDIA device drivers, etc...
>>
>> This should be easy to fix if SUSE does the proper "lobbying" to test and
>> release candidate of SUSE Linux, WITH THE INCLUSION of the non-gpl
>> stuff!. This includes ACROREAD, MP3 modules, etc....
>> Also large companies like NVIDIA could allow propre creations of distro
>> specific RPM's by releasing the "building blocks" even in some compiled
>> form, they also should amend their user's license to allow free
>> distribution!
>>
>> We (users) should vote with our wallet by preferrately purchasing
>> hardware (here video cards) with open source software drivers...
>> How will NVIDIA, ATI and chip vendors achieve this? This is up to them!
>> There are many possible options.
>>
>> 6) The RTFM claim made here, by one posting has some validity... and some
>> sillyness in it: if I wanted to get in this mode, why should I use SUSE,
>> or RedHat, I will rather go Debian or derivatives (UBUNTU, possibly).
>>
>> I have chosen SUSE Linux because I want to be user, not a hacker: my
>> expectation with it being a Linux Distro well documented, and simple to
>> use/update.
>> I would expect SUSE/NOVEL to make money by selling packages (less and
>> less), but books, training, and sopport.
>>
>> 7) The kids are still nagging...
>> At some point the kids will grow up and contribute, I am sure.
>>
>> Thanks for all the posting, and contributions...
>> AFC4
>> ====================
>> Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2005 06:35:09 GMT, Andreas > Gave
>>> us: Roy L. Fuchs escribe:
>>>> If YOU would learn to READ the SUSE Linux Install HOW-TO on the
>>>>> NVIDIA website, you would LEARN that the problem is YOU.
>>>>YOU as in [Y]ast [O]nline [U]pdate?
>>> Wrong. "YOU" as in the person that posted the supposed "problem".

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Conor
December 28th 05, 08:39 AM
In article >, AnonymousFC4 says...
> This is a repost: Original post on alt.os.linux.suse
> Subject: SUSE 10.0 NVIDIA: how to enable 3D -- temporary conclusions --
> ==
> I think the Linux support on Nvidia, is at best poor: hard to install, often
> instable.
>
Is it ********? It's one of THE EASIEST to install.

Download .run file. sh .run file, folllow the bouncing ball. Edit X
config file and change a couple of well documented entries.


> Also the Nvidia Linux drivers distribution model is unacceptable: I still
> consider that when I purchase a computer peripheral for Linux, then I
> should be able to use clean open source drivers for it.
>
Blame your open source friends for not writing one. If there's no open
source driver for a peripheral then there is only one group to blame -
the OSS community.

> I have purchased several NVIDIA cards, but unless NVIDIA wakes up and
> provides a good alternative to the current situation... which has lasted a
> long time, I will try ATI (or other video cards/chip vendor) in the future,
> hoping that the situation is better there. (Not sure).
>
ROFLMAO...than you'll have something to complain about.

> It is interesting to note that often new vendors establish a solid presence
> in the Linux (and other open source)by providing what is missing.
> I am wondering how many Laser printers did sell on the Linux market...
> because others printers vendors had poor linux support.
> My guess is "a lot ".
>
Blame your OSS buddies.

> note: freely providing the technical product specification, API (application
> programming interface) specification is what the open source guys need to
> write device drivers.

Why should a company that has spent $millions developing a product give
their information away for free?

--
Conor

I'm so grateful to the USA for their contribution to the war on terror.
After all, if they hadn't funded the IRA for 30 years, we wouldn't know
what terror was.

J. Clarke
December 28th 05, 03:00 PM
Conor wrote:

> In article >, AnonymousFC4 says...
>> This is a repost: Original post on alt.os.linux.suse
>> Subject: SUSE 10.0 NVIDIA: how to enable 3D -- temporary conclusions --
>> ==
>> I think the Linux support on Nvidia, is at best poor: hard to install,
>> often instable.
>>
> Is it ********? It's one of THE EASIEST to install.
>
> Download .run file. sh .run file, folllow the bouncing ball. Edit X
> config file and change a couple of well documented entries.
>
>
>> Also the Nvidia Linux drivers distribution model is unacceptable: I still
>> consider that when I purchase a computer peripheral for Linux, then I
>> should be able to use clean open source drivers for it.
>>
> Blame your open source friends for not writing one. If there's no open
> source driver for a peripheral then there is only one group to blame -
> the OSS community.

It's not that simple when the device has a complex proprietary interface.
If Nvidia and ATI would get it into their heads that the make _chips_ and
not _software_ and provided full documentation on their chips it would be a
different story, but reverse-engineering the damned things when all you
have to work with is the chip itself and a Windows driver in binary is a
collossal task.

>> I have purchased several NVIDIA cards, but unless NVIDIA wakes up and
>> provides a good alternative to the current situation... which has lasted
>> a long time, I will try ATI (or other video cards/chip vendor) in the
>> future, hoping that the situation is better there. (Not sure).
>>
> ROFLMAO...than you'll have something to complain about.
>
>> It is interesting to note that often new vendors establish a solid
>> presence in the Linux (and other open source)by providing what is
>> missing. I am wondering how many Laser printers did sell on the Linux
>> market... because others printers vendors had poor linux support.
>> My guess is "a lot ".
>>
> Blame your OSS buddies.

If you think it's easy, why don't _you_ do it?

>> note: freely providing the technical product specification, API
>> (application programming interface) specification is what the open source
>> guys need to write device drivers.
>
> Why should a company that has spent $millions developing a product give
> their information away for free?

So that they can make $millions actually selling products?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

First of One
December 28th 05, 11:38 PM
"AnonymousFC4" > wrote in message
...
> I think the Linux support on Nvidia, is at best poor: hard to install,
> often
> instable.

Indeed, but that actually represents the best effort out of all the major
video chipset manufacturers.

> Also the Nvidia Linux drivers distribution model is unacceptable: I still
> consider that when I purchase a computer peripheral for Linux, then I
> should be able to use clean open source drivers for it.

Most PC users do not share your opinion. It's also true that driver
development can cost more than hardware development, especially for
professional 3D CAD and DCC work. There are huge monetary investment and
trade secrets involved, so don't expect nVidia or ATi to release open-source
drivers.

> I have purchased several NVIDIA cards, but unless NVIDIA wakes up and
> provides a good alternative to the current situation... which has lasted a
> long time, I will try ATI (or other video cards/chip vendor) in the
> future,
> hoping that the situation is better there. (Not sure).

ATi allocates driver development time commensurate with market share. This,
straight from the horse's mouth in an interview. Thus, there's one person
(out of some 50) dedicating half his time to Linux driver development... I
think Mac OS drivers receive higher priority.

> It is interesting to note that often new vendors establish a solid
> presence
> in the Linux (and other open source)by providing what is missing.
> I am wondering how many Laser printers did sell on the Linux market...
> because others printers vendors had poor linux support.
> My guess is "a lot ".

This has been said before, it's a chicken and egg thing. However, consider
this: both ATi and nVidia have pretty much abandoned the entire installed
base of AGP systems, as a conscious business decision. They certainly care
less about the Linux users.

--
"War is the continuation of politics by other means.
It can therefore be said that politics is war without
bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed."